TA lower while PH still high after using Dry Acid to Lower PH (TA was OK)

[Drd]

Ahh -- thanks. That will not do anything with calcium. I suppose it might help if you are on a well but city water systems already manage those issues.

Thanks --

We have the hardest water and everything turns white and drives me crazy. The moment water drys it leaves white junk behind. When I filter it doesn't period and I don't need a science degree to see what's right in front of me. So no I don't think my city is doing anything more than they can get bye with just like the FDA does for you. Well that's another subject entirely. Here's how nice my pool water looks today just have to get that gosh darned PH/TA figured out.

 

[Drd]

Ahh -- thanks. That will not do anything with calcium. I suppose it might help if you are on a well but city water systems already manage those issues.

Thanks --

Found some information for both of us:
[h=2]Methods of Treatment for Water Contaminants[/h][h=2]Calcium[/h][h=3]Source of Calcium[/h]Calcium is the major component of hardness in water and is usually in the range of 5 - 500 mg/i, as CaCO₃. Calcium is derived from nearly all rock, but the greatest concentrations come from limestone and gypsum. Calcium ions are the principal cations in most natural waters. Calcium reduction is required in treating cooling tower makeup. Complete removal is required in metal finishing, textile operations, and boiler feed applications.[h=3]Treatment of Calcium[/h]Calcium, as with all hardness, can be removed with a simple sodium form cation exchanger (softener). Reverse Osmosis will remove 95% - 98% of the calcium in the water. Electrodialysis and Ultrafiltration also will remove calcium. Calcium can also be removed with the hydrogen form cation exchanger portion of a deionizer system.

 

[mknauss]

I agree. That hose end filter cannot do any of those. It is a particulate and carbon filter. It will not remove calcium from your water.

Take care.

 

[Drd]

Update: I treated the pool this evening with dry acid (95%) and this time it worked!!! It went from 7.8 down to 7.4 bang in one shot. At the same time the TA rose 10ppm yes that's right..went up not down and I double tested to insure I had the correct test results cause I know someone is going to think I must of messed up the count (I do verify them). The pool store person told me up side to using dry acid is it will not effect the TA and the proof is there cause I added 1.5 lbs of the stuff.

Now here's something I did differently this time, I spread some of the dry acid dosage at each return which was already circulating the water instead of putting all the dry acid dose at one return although I put a lot more in than I have before. That brings me to the next discovery; the dosage according the the Taylor Reference Book chart showed to bring my PH down to 7.4 from 7.8 with dry acid, I needed to add 1.5 lbs, yet the Pool calculator instructions were add only 15 oz if I entered my TA in at 70ppm but when I changed it so it was 0 on the PH side, the instructions only increased to 16oz or 1 lb. that's 33.3% less. I have been using the Pool Calculator all this time and apparently not putting enough acid in the pool to change the PH enough if at all. Someone might want to find out why the two differ in dosage instructions and get rid of the TA factor on the PH side which interferes with the dosage calculations; it did in my scenario anyway.

So I can verify those that said attack the PH as the priority and don't worry about the TA it will be ok really works (it's kinda like they come closer to gether the more neutral things get) I'm hoping it will stabilize now. Thanks everyone for your time and input.

 

[needsajet]

When you say 'the Pool calculator' I'm assuming you mean PoolMath here at TFP. https://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html

If your TA is at 70 ppm, just enter that in both the "Now" column and the "Target" column. TA at 70 ppm is fine. Later on, after you get comfortable with the pH management, you may choose to lower it a bit to reduce the frequency of acid adjustments, but that's entirely optional.

If you need to reduce TA because of your calcite saturation index (CSI) exceeding 0.3, then you can follow this procedure: Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity

If your pH is at 7.8, it is in range and can be left alone unless there is some other reason to adjust it. When it rises above 7.8, adjust it down to 7.6 or perhaps 7.5. If you take it any lower than that, it tends to rise back up to 7.5 or 7.6 very quickly (i.e. often the same day). For PoolMath to calculate the amount to add, the TA number in the "Now" column must be entered. The TA number in the "Target" column has no effect on the calculation of acid required.

At the bottom of PoolMath, there's a section called "Effect of adding chemicals" which will show you that adding e.g. 15 oz of dry acid (when TA is 70 ppm) will reduce pH by around 0.24 pH units, and TA will drop by around 4.2 ppm. You will not notice a change of 4.2 ppm on the TA test, because the error of the test is +/- 10 ppm.

Be sure when testing TA that you add drops until there is no further color change. Some people call the color full "Barbie pink".

Maintaining pH between 7.6 and 7.8 should be possible with weekly acid addition, or perhaps twice a week.

 

[domct203]

........Be sure when testing TA that you add drops until there is no further color change. Some people call the color full "Barbie pink"........

Just to echo needsajet's advise, continue to add drops until there is no further color change, then subtract that last drop (that didn't change the color), that is the true endpoint of the test.

 

[needsajet]

Yep, thanks, Dom, good point about subtracting the drop which doesn't cause any more color change.

 

[Drd]

When you say 'the Pool calculator' I'm assuming you mean PoolMath here at TFP. https://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html

If your TA is at 70 ppm, just enter that in both the "Now" column and the "Target" column. TA at 70 ppm is fine. Later on, after you get comfortable with the pH management, you may choose to lower it a bit to reduce the frequency of acid adjustments, but that's entirely optional.

If you need to reduce TA because of your calcite saturation index (CSI) exceeding 0.3, then you can follow this procedure: Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity

If your pH is at 7.8, it is in range and can be left alone unless there is some other reason to adjust it. When it rises above 7.8, adjust it down to 7.6 or perhaps 7.5. If you take it any lower than that, it tends to rise back up to 7.5 or 7.6 very quickly (i.e. often the same day). For PoolMath to calculate the amount to add, the TA number in the "Now" column must be entered. The TA number in the "Target" column has no effect on the calculation of acid required.

At the bottom of PoolMath, there's a section called "Effect of adding chemicals" which will show you that adding e.g. 15 oz of dry acid (when TA is 70 ppm) will reduce pH by around 0.24 pH units, and TA will drop by around 4.2 ppm. You will not notice a change of 4.2 ppm on the TA test, because the error of the test is +/- 10 ppm.

Be sure when testing TA that you add drops until there is no further color change. Some people call the color full "Barbie pink".

Maintaining pH between 7.6 and 7.8 should be possible with weekly acid addition, or perhaps twice a week.

Today PH did go up slightly to 7.5-7.6 the only other change was the addition of 2.5 ppm chlorine. I used the Poolcalculator.com which seems to be the same as Pool Math and even mentions TFP on it just easier looking interface.

I do understand when the Now and Target numbers are the same the result is zero difference which I did on the TA side to see if I could match the same dry acid dosage the Taylor Reference Chart told me I would need to add to bring my PH down to the 7.4 target which is the same number I put in the pool calculator or Pool math which ever but it did not generate the same dry acid dosage instructions.

There was a significant difference as I stated above of 33.3% so it was even marginal. I would of expected them to agree or be somewhat close to each other and was shocked to find out why I'm not getting the results when I follow the dosage on these pool chemistry calculators. The one noticeable difference is the Taylor 2006C Reference Guide/ instructions does not factor TA perimeters when determining PH chemical adjustments ratios.

Thanks for the Barbie Pink testing rule, I did wonder if I should stop once it turns pink or should it be darker as in red like the instructions say so my TA is probably slightly higher than which is good cause the CSI is ok then.

When do you know if the Taylor regents are not giving dependable results and time to replace?

 

[Drd]

I filter my drinking water daily with a much smaller version and it makes a big difference and the filter I purchased from the Spa Depot is many times bigger. It may not remove calcium quite like an RO system would, but I know it's filtering out junk just the same. I have a long ways to worry about calcium and Shock (cal hypo) is the major culprit which I steer away from. I'll use non chlorine shock to support the active chlorine as long as my CC tests are good which they are even though it's costs more. Each of us use our pool differently and should factor that in as our experiences will be different.

 

[needsajet]

PoolMath on this website is reliable. PoolMath

Third-party references will not always agree with PoolMath or other references here. In particular, reference charts on bags of chemicals or in guidebooks can not do a calculation that takes other measures into account, but rather just provide approximations that will often work. Other websites mentioning TFP or linking to TFP are not supported or checked from here. Everything needed to adopt TFPC is right here at troublefreepool.com

 

[Drd]

PoolMath on this website is reliable. PoolMath

Third-party references will not always agree with PoolMath or other references here. In particular, reference charts on bags of chemicals or in guidebooks can not do a calculation that takes other measures into account, but rather just provide approximations that will often work. Other websites mentioning TFP or linking to TFP are not supported or checked from here. Everything needed to adopt TFPC is right here at troublefreepool.com

Don't mean to disagree with You, but you should visit the Poolcalculator.com to see it is exactly the same thing and it also has the app version on there you can download too. It has a patent so there would be infringement rights violated right?

Also the information I got somewhere else was only from the Taylor Test Kit 2006C this site promotes. So I would think the Taylor Guide which is part of the kit should have integrity by the members here and it did not agree with the Pool Math calculations generated for the PH dosage with comparable perimeters of Now 7.8 target 7.4 by a whopping 33.3% difference "to low". No other measures needed to be taken into account. I do hope someone looks into this because it caused me a lot of frustration with trying to get my PH to balance and spending time and energy researching here and else where to figure out the whole TA/PH and why I'm not balancing as I should based on the Pool Calculator instructions I received. When I followed the Taylor guide on how much dry acid I needed to put in, the PH hit target and my TA actually raised slightly and needed no adjustment so issues were resolved. I hope this is viewed as constructive information from a user only intended to be helpful for the improvement or enhancement of this site.

Final comment/update: Three days later now and my PH and TA have remained the same and stable after using the Taylor Reference Guide to determine how much "Dry" acid I needed to administer to reach the Target PH. TA was not a factor in determining the PH adjustment and needed no adjustment after adding the "Dry" acid either. I have been told "Dry" acid does not effect TA levels; this did hold true in my case.

Please note; This does not reflect the usage of Muriatic acid; i only use "Dry" acid- 95% sodium bisulfate.

I just found this excellent explanation I know will be helpful to others like myself to understand how this works:
How do you lower the pH without lowering the Total Alkalinity? You should use a dry acid (pH lower, pH minus, etc.) mixed into a bucket of water first, then poured around the pool. Dry acid is a much milder acid than muriatic acid and when diluted in water will have almost no effect on the Total Alkalinity of the water while lowering the pH. This will allow you to maintain the Total Alkalinity level, which will make it more difficult for the pH to change, thereby reducing your pH fluctuation.

*Reference-http://www.poolhelpforum.com post title Muriatic Acid versus granular acid

 

[Leebo]

Don't mean to disagree with You, but you should visit the Poolcalculator.com to see it is exactly the same thing and it also has the app version on there you can download too. It has a patent so there would be infringement rights violated right?

Also the information I got somewhere else was only from the Taylor Test Kit 2006C this site promotes. So I would think the Taylor Guide which is part of the kit should have integrity by the members here and it did not agree with the Pool Math calculations generated for the PH dosage with comparable perimeters of Now 7.8 target 7.4 by a whopping 33.3% difference "to low". No other measures needed to be taken into account. I do hope someone looks into this because it caused me a lot of frustration with trying to get my PH to balance and spending time and energy researching here and else where to figure out the whole TA/PH and why I'm not balancing as I should based on the Pool Calculator instructions I received. When I followed the Taylor guide on how much dry acid I needed to put in, the PH hit target and my TA actually raised slightly and needed no adjustment so issues were resolved. I hope this is viewed as constructive information from a user only intended to be helpful for the improvement or enhancement of this site.

The code for PoolCalculator.com was written by JasonLion, a former TFP Admin and sold to a third party around 10 years ago. After holding our breath for many years wishing they would update their website and math we finally gave up and created PoolMath which is based on the same code, only contains multiple updates. The PoolCalculator, while appearing to be the same, is outdated in many areas and may or may not be providing you accurate information. There are several area's where the code has been updated that's likely NOT reflected in the PoolCalculator. This may or may not (I didn't read your full thread) be the source of some of incorrect information you may be receiving.

 

[needsajet]

I'm not here to argue but I will just clarify anything I can for the benefit of any other readers who might be mislead by the thread, until/unless the thread is closed.

We don't promote anything, but rather just provide the best available information related to pool water chemistry. We do list the test kits that work reliably for TFPC, which is the system taught here at TFP. That does not include a review or endorsement of anyone else's guidebook. Our reference (or guidebook, if you like) is Pool School here at TFP.

Simply put, the TA measurement is needed in PoolMath in order to calculate a reasonable estimate of acid needed to effect a particular pH change. Adding either dry acid (sodium bisulphate) or liquid (muriatic) acid will not raise TA in a swimming pool. The caveats on the PoolMath measurement of expected pH change are provided in the section called "Effects of adding chemicals"

In the interest of being helpful, there's a couple of things about Taylor's guidebook that may be helpful. Taylor recommends the cyanuric acid correction for TA measurements, found on page 14. Although I don't think that's relevant to your query, TFPC does not require this correction. Taylor's table for pH correction with dry acid relies on the Taylor acid demand drop method, found as Table F on page 58. By it's nature, the acid demand drop method accounts for TA. Taylor also includes a table for decreasing alkalinity with dry acid, Table H on page 60.

Usually blending TFPC with other systems doesn't work, so that could be part of what you're experiencing.

 

[Foxy]

We have the hardest water and everything turns white and drives me crazy. The moment water drys it leaves white junk behind. When I filter it doesn't period and I don't need a science degree to see what's right in front of me. So no I don't think my city is doing anything more than they can get bye with just like the FDA does for you. Well that's another subject entirely. Here's how nice my pool water looks today just have to get that gosh darned PH/TA figured out.

What is the CH level of your fill water and what was the cost for the RO treatment you had done? We have very hard fill water next door in NV also.

 

[Drd]

I'm not here to argue but I will just clarify anything I can for the benefit of any other readers who might be mislead by the thread, until/unless the thread is closed.

We don't promote anything, but rather just provide the best available information related to pool water chemistry. We do list the test kits that work reliably for TFPC, which is the system taught here at TFP. That does not include a review or endorsement of anyone else's guidebook. Our reference (or guidebook, if you like) is Pool School here at TFP.

Simply put, the TA measurement is needed in PoolMath in order to calculate a reasonable estimate of acid needed to effect a particular pH change. Adding either dry acid (sodium bisulphate) or liquid (muriatic) acid will not raise TA in a swimming pool. The caveats on the PoolMath measurement of expected pH change are provided in the section called "Effects of adding chemicals"

In the interest of being helpful, there's a couple of things about Taylor's guidebook that may be helpful. Taylor recommends the cyanuric acid correction for TA measurements, found on page 14. Although I don't think that's relevant to your query, TFPC does not require this correction. Taylor's table for pH correction with dry acid relies on the Taylor acid demand drop method, found as Table F on page 58. By it's nature, the acid demand drop method accounts for TA. Taylor also includes a table for decreasing alkalinity with dry acid, Table H on page 60.

Usually blending TFPC with other systems doesn't work, so that could be part of what you're experiencing.

I can see I am not being heard, although sometimes the simplest explanation is the best that being; Poolmath/pool calculator did not give me the right measurement amount of dry acid to add to reach the "Target" PH but following the Taylor Chemistry chart did give me the correct amount of acid to add to reach the Target PH level I was trying to achieve.... period and the difference between the two was off by a whopping 33%. End of story. It appears there is resistance to these facts so I will not further this discussion. I will leave this for others to figure out for themselves.

 

[Drd]

What is the CH level of your fill water and what was the cost for the RO treatment you had done? We have very hard fill water next door in NV also.

I don't know what my fill water CH is but that really doesn't concern me as much as staying away from using shock chemicals that are loaded with CH and should be avoid unless you have a green pool. Cal Hypo being the cheapest everyone reaches for and it's somewhere around 50% CH so if you add this weekly as some people do, it will take no time at all to have high CH levels. I put this in the same category as CYA from using Pucks. I use non chlorine shock to improve my FC but it will not knock out a problem with CC's. I try to watch the contaminates that go into my pool but I don't have kids or animals in my pool that can put a strain on your sanitation system.

When I first took over my pool from having it service weekly, my CH was at 1100 after I had RO'd it was 250 and raised 100ppm almost over night due to the service shocked it twice before I let them go.

I highly recommend doing the RO verses a drain and refill; it's cost is similar when you factor everything in and for me it was 400.00 for a 10,500 gal pool which I negotiated down a bit. The results were amazing, never realized my pool water could look so crystal clear.

If your interested, send me your contact and I forward it [email protected]

 

[Leebo]

I can see I am not being heard, although sometimes the simplest explanation is the best that being; Poolmath/pool calculator did not give me the right measurement amount of dry acid to add to reach the "Target" PH but following the Taylor Chemistry chart did give me the correct amount of acid to add to reach the Target PH level I was trying to achieve.... period and the difference between the two was off by a whopping 33%. End of story. It appears there is resistance to these facts so I will not further this discussion. I will leave this for others to figure out for themselves.

Any way you can email me a copy or photo of that chart? I’d love to compare the two and review that we’re putting out the best data we can.

[email protected]

 

[Foxy]

I don't know what my fill water CH is but that really doesn't concern me as much as staying away from using shock chemicals that are loaded with CH and should be avoid unless you have a green pool. Cal Hypo being the cheapest everyone reaches for and it's somewhere around 50% CH so if you add this weekly as some people do, it will take no time at all to have high CH levels. I put this in the same category as CYA from using Pucks. I use non chlorine shock to improve my FC but it will not knock out a problem with CC's. I try to watch the contaminates that go into my pool but I don't have kids or animals in my pool that can put a strain on your sanitation system.

When I first took over my pool from having it service weekly, my CH was at 1100 after I had RO'd it was 250 and raised 100ppm almost over night due to the service shocked it twice before I let them go.

I highly recommend doing the RO verses a drain and refill; it's cost is similar when you factor everything in and for me it was 400.00 for a 10,500 gal pool which I negotiated down a bit. The results were amazing, never realized my pool water could look so crystal clear.

If your interested, send me your contact and I forward it [email protected]

Thanks for the info on the price of RO, but I'm not interested in paying $400 regularly for the treatment. Drain/fill is less than $40 for me, replenishing my CYA, FC and adjusting my PH on a new fill is like $20. I don't know what else would have to be factored in to make the cost similar as that is all that is needed in my pool...

(...edited because I did a search for previous posts by DRD...)

 

[needsajet]

Here are the tables from Taylor, Pool & Spa Water Chemistry, May 2015. Emailed as well, Lee.

 

[needsajet]

How many drops acid demand was your target amount, DRD? (and corresponding 'Now' and 'Target' pH)

Also just wondering how many years young the pool is?