SWG startup plan

[Jimrahbe]

Jim,

The IC40 does not really care about high salt... It will give a high salt warning, but will continue to run... The high salt limit is 4500 ppm...

Keep in mind that the IC40 does a pretty poor job of reporting the salt level... accuracy for the cell is +/- 500 ppm and that is when it is working well...

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

Ok this morning my machine is at 2600. Kicks on at 2800. My reading was 3000.

So so if I add another bag that puts me at the 3200 range. That should kick the machine on.

My question. The range Pentair says is 3200-3400. What if I need to go over that 3400 to get the machine to kick into green mode? Is being over that range a no no? Also is having the machine in the lower range to keep it on ok or can that mess things up?

i guess what I’m trying to say is if the machine kicks on st 2800. How much above it should I be along with keeping my salt in a safe range with my actual reading? Not on the machine but me testing.

Ooh, I almost skipped over this thread because you're getting good advice. I'll only add the following, a caution about adding salt to satisfy the cell.

I just had my cell replaced under warranty because I could prove to Pentair that my water was 3200 but the cell was reporting quite a bit lower (this, all at 70°). The new cell now reports 3600! So yes, the cell's testing capability is lame at best, but it can be so bad that it will cause you to overdose your pool with salt unnecessarily.

400± is, unfortunately, within the margin of error for both the SWG and the test, so you might be OK. If its worse than that, you can start to suspect the cell itself. The part that does the testing is well known (to Pentair, too) to be the very weak link in that unit. That and the flow readings (same part) are off all the time. That part (it does both salt and flow) is often the first to malfunction. Bad Pentair. They've known about this issue for years, and it is still a problem, despite some anecdotal claims that they've addressed it.

 

[jimim]

Right so this is my whole point about being careful as I add salt.

So without talking about the cell what is the safe range of salt parts per million that I can have in the pool with me using the approved salt test. I know Pentair says salt range should be 3300-3400. Can I go above that reading with using the approved all test to make sure the salt cell has a high enough salt concentration to keep on.


If I have to take my salt level up to 3800 with the salt test is that too high for a plaster pool or is that still ok? I don’t want my csi getting too wonky.

If if I add 2 more bags my salt level will be 3500 with salt test. That ok still for s plaster pool and csi level?

 

[Fiberpool]

SWG - are a pain. Salt and all. SWG not effective unless water is above 60+F. Heard all the reasons and have to tell you. I use chlorine to open my pool to hit the winter nasties, drain a small amount 3" inches, 1000 gallons, then hit again with chorine, generally 12.5% or in a pinch 10%, then drain/refill again. Why? to get it ready for the SWG to kick back on. SWG - needs around 3200ppm Salt to function and I use the opening to balance my CYA, 50-70ppm, and TA - around 120ppm -seems fiberglass pools have a high TA problems, mine has hit 200+ppm, go figure. Once adjusted for CYA and TA the PH runs at 7.4 -7.6 thru the summer. SWG kicks out a constant 3 on TC via testing, where FC is 3 and CC is nill. I do run the multi-speed pump 24/7 during the swim months. btw, I love the SWG generator. Sure has made my life with the pool easier. Open with chlorine, swim with a generator that does it, then close with chlorine. No brainer. Did you know, the ocean is 10 times more salty than a SWG pool?

 

[Dirk]

Right so this is my whole point about being careful as I add salt.

So without talking about the cell what is the safe range of salt parts per million that I can have in the pool with me using the approved salt test. I know Pentair says salt range should be 3300-3400. Can I go above that reading with using the approved all test to make sure the salt cell has a high enough salt concentration to keep on.


If I have to take my salt level up to 3800 with the salt test is that too high for a plaster pool or is that still ok? I don’t want my csi getting too wonky.

If if I add 2 more bags my salt level will be 3500 with salt test. That ok still for s plaster pool and csi level?

Not sure about plaster, and salt doesn't push CSI so much that you can't bring it in range by adjusting the other chems involved. But you might consider other things than just those two parameters.

There seems to be different schools of thought on how high you can, or should, go. There has to be an upper limit, but it's not clear to me what governs that. Will the cell not like that? Your coping? Your taste buds? Your skin? Your patio furniture, or stainless steel hand rail? My ScreenLogic interface certainly warns of a level that's too high. So for warranty coverage alone, it seems I should respect that.

So this is how I've approached dialing in salt level: keep it as low as the thing will reliably fire. Remember, salt is going to increase over time, SWG or no. Salt doesn't evaporate, and its level has a lot of contributors: chlorine, acid, sweat, fill water, etc. Your salt is going to rise no matter what you do. That means it'll eventually max out for one or more of the reasons I listed. So why help it along? Start as low as the SWG needs, then hope the build up doesn't happen any time soon (which will ultimately necessitate a water exchange).

That's why I didn't just dump in more salt to satisfy my original SWG's crummy salt reading capability, but rather I forced Pentair to give me one that worked better. The one I have now actually reads salt high, so my level can be slightly lower than recommended, which means it'll run under more conditions, not less, like yours appears to be doing.

For me, seems like there's good reason not to push my salt level up if I don't have to...

 

[jimim]

Ok dirk. That answers it all except this last point.

The pentair needs 2800 to kick into green. At 2800 will it produce chlorine as efficient as a higher reading of 3200?

Or is the unit less effiencent st the min salt level to go green. I just don’t want to add in more than I need since the unit reads lower than the actual so I can keep my salt level as low as possible.

 

[Dirk]

Not privy to the actual science of it, I think this is safe to claim: the chlorine output is not subject to the amount of salt in the water nor the speed at which it passes the plates, within the recommended ranges of each (flow and salt level). I think that'll get past the lawyers! In other words, if you have at least 2800PPM and run it past the thing at least at 25GPM, you'll get all the chlorine it can generate, and adding salt or RPMs won't get you any extra. The SWG won't fire with less than what it needs to produce chlorine, so you don't have to be concerned about what will happen by going lower than recommended, it just won't turn on.

I expect they buffer those numbers quite a bit. It'll probably make chlorine at way less salt, and way less RPM, but they set the unit to turn off sooner than it needs to so that it can't get anywhere near where there'd be a problem. That's just a guess, but something their engineers would probably do in the interest of minimizing tech support calls! Problem is, they didn't even get that right, because the dern salt sensor/flow sensor gizmo really sucks, as you're experiencing...

 

[jimim]

Ok so this morning my saltcreading with me heating water inside to 70 is 3200. My pool water is 63 and reading from unit is 2650.

I guess i got to add add more salt today.

Is this true. Pentairctold me my water is too cold to get an accurate probe reading? That they r calibrated at 77 degrees so it will be off 700 plus ppm till 77 degrees so they told me to take my salt up to 4000 to get it to kick on?

I really dont don’t want to do that. Did anyone else hear this? My water temp is 62-64 right now.

 

[Dirk]

Yes, that is Pentair's standard answer. I got something similar, but I don't think it was exactly that. That's why I mentioned 70° in an earlier post. They told me to add salt, I told them my salt tested within range, and that I wasn't going to dump more in. Because my numbers were so far off, within the temperature range Pentair claims their SWGs are "accurate," they had to give in and send out a repair guy. I happened to luck out and the repair guy was "pro Dirk" and "anti Pentair." He stuck a test strip in my pool (presumably to confirm I had enough salt in my pool), then declared my SWG done. He wouldn't even replace the temp sensor, claiming that takes too long, so just gave me a brand new unit. So now he's my new go-to Pentair repair guy!

Point was, you might call back to Pentair, hope to get a different support tech, one that will at least send out a repair guy. If that doesn't work, you might find a local certified Pentair repair shop that will come to your pool and declare the SWG bad, and let them work the warranty claim. You might get a new sensor out of it.

Or you might limp along with liquid chlorine (turn off your SWG) for a few more days/weeks until your pool hits 70, or 77, whatever Pentair wants, then try again. If you still can't get it to fire, then you'd have a better case with Pentair.

Shoot, forgot to ask before I got carried away there. Is your unit still under warranty? Has it been a year? Your sig mentions a lot of Pentair. Did you buy it all at the same time? Did you buy enough to get your warranty for everything extended to three years? Can't remember now if one has to apply for that or not, or if Pentair gives it to you automatically. My PB arranged that for me.

If not under warranty, and/or you can't get Pentair to honor it, I think you then have three choices, in order of expense:

Dump in more salt and see what happens (again, your choice whether to wait until the pool is warmer or not).

Replace the sensor yourself (I think I remember that being around a $100 part, but you should double check that before you make a decision).

Replace the SWG (not really an option at this point).

 

[Dirk]

PS. I just reread your post. 2800 + 700 = 3500. Meaning, even if Pentair "advice" is supposed to make up for their inaccurate sensor, why do you need to go to 4000 to see if that's the problem. It's supposed to fire at 2800, so sensor being off by 700 would mean 3500 should do the trick. Another reason to call them back and get a different tech.

 

[jimim]

Ok thanks for all the great info. I think what I’m going to do first is test my water at the pool temp today. Not warm it to 70.

Im also going to dump another bag which should take me to 3400. That is still low. Even if I have to drop another bag. That would be 3600 which is still fine. If it doesn’t kick on then I’ll do something. Maybe it is just the water for now. Maybe it isn’t.

Miya a year old like the rest of the equipment. Less actually. So I’m still in the ol zone for warranty.

 

[Dirk]

I'm not sure how this will work into your plan. Just mentioning it for consideration purposes.

It's fine to do what you gotta do to get this working, in May through summer. But if you have a "weak" unit that is fussy around the lower temps, then you're going to be switching over to liquid chlorine sooner that you should have to.

I have to dose with chlorine in winter, can't get around that, as my water gets into the 40s. But I want to minimize how many months I have to do that. I expect my cell to work down to 52°, as it's rated. If if poops out at 60°, or more, then I'll have to start dosing sooner in the fall, and keep dosing later come spring. And that's not what I paid for.

If I have to bump my salt to 4000+ or whatever to get it to work at 52°, I'll decide at that point whether I want to do that or not. Point is, that should be my decision, and not based on the eccentricities of an expensive piece of pool equipment that isn't performing to spec...

 

[jimim]

I hear ya. Remember I close my pool for winter. So once November hits I’m closed and don’t open till April.

So crazy.

Tonight i I added the last bag. It should take my reading to 3400. With drops. Taylor lot.

The inot has read 2650 for 3 days when I turn it on. I have been keeping it off till I get it up.

So after 3 hours I turned on the unit. Just for the heck of it. Reading of 3000 and it’s green!

so in 3 hrs it went up 350 with 1 bag of salt that should have taken it up 200 only.

This thing is whacky in my eyes. My water is 65. So the same.

So im dying to know what it will read when the salt “mixes” after 24 hrs or so.

I know im looking into this too much bit this is what worries me. What if I go away and the probe tests the water and it decides it’s low. Then I get no chlorine being produced and come home to algae. I will be livid. Lol

 

[Dirk]

OK, so you're good for the winter, scratch that concern.

Be sure you're allowing enough time after adding salt before you try to measure it. Your pump should be running 24hrs a day. I waited several days so that I could be assured it was all mixed in before I tried to test for it.

And I left my SWG off until I was absolutely sure the salt was all mixed in. That is a precaution I read here several times, regarding the safe operation of the SWG.

 

[lightmaster]

Just gonna mention that adding more salt to get the horrible salt probe happy so it'll turn on and generate isn't a big deal and won't hurt your cell or anything. So if your pool is actually at 3000ppm but the cell thinks it as 2600, adding another 400-600ppm won't hurt anything. Also, if you want to increase the accuracy of your salt test, fill your test tube up to 25mL, use 1-2 drops of yellow drops (at work and can't remember the numbers or names of the reagents) to get the sample to turn yellow, and then count the 2nd reagent. With 25mL sample, each drop of the 2nd reagent now equals 80ppm, reducing your margin of error quite a bit.

 

[Dirk]

adding another 400-600ppm won't hurt anything.

Except that he'll be 400-600ppm closer to when he'll have to do a water exchange to reduce salt in his pool...

If he can get his temp in Pentair's range, and his salt in Pentair's range, and prove that his SWG is out of spec, Pentair will have to give him a new one (or at least a new temp sensor). If the new sensor reads better, he'll have a better setup without having to overdose his pool with salt.

He may not want to pursue that, and try it your way, which is fine. I was just workin' towards this other option first...

 

[jimim]

OK, so you're good for the winter, scratch that concern.

Be sure you're allowing enough time after adding salt before you try to measure it. Your pump should be running 24hrs a day. I waited several days so that I could be assured it was all mixed in before I tried to test for it.

And I left my SWG off until I was absolutely sure the salt was all mixed in. That is a precaution I read here several times, regarding the safe operation of the SWG.

That is exactly what I’m doing I run my pump 24 seven anyway but I’m running it at 3000 RPMs right now as I add salt I just turned on the salt generator last night for the heck of it to see what kind a reading I would get but it is off now and it’s going to stay off for a few more days I’m adding my CYA right now to get that up to the 70 Mark because I wasn’t there yet

- - - Updated - - -

Just gonna mention that adding more salt to get the horrible salt probe happy so it'll turn on and generate isn't a big deal and won't hurt your cell or anything. So if your pool is actually at 3000ppm but the cell thinks it as 2600, adding another 400-600ppm won't hurt anything. Also, if you want to increase the accuracy of your salt test, fill your test tube up to 25mL, use 1-2 drops of yellow drops (at work and can't remember the numbers or names of the reagents) to get the sample to turn yellow, and then count the 2nd reagent. With 25mL sample, each drop of the 2nd reagent now equals 80ppm, reducing your margin of error quite a bit.

OK that’s good to know about the drop test I’m almost at the point now after talking to another member last night that I’m not even going to worry about the drop test anymore because ultimately I’m at the mercy of my cell.

But it I think I’m all good. My water just must be too cold still. We r having a warm week so I should have a good picture by end of the week.

- - - Updated - - -

Except that he'll be 400-600ppm closer to when he'll have to do a water exchange to reduce salt in his pool...

If he can get his temp in Pentair's range, and his salt in Pentair's range, and prove that his SWG is out of spec, Pentair will have to give him a new one (or at least a new temp sensor). If the new sensor reads better, he'll have a better setup without having to overdose his pool with salt.

He may not want to pursue that, and try it your way, which is fine. I was just workin' towards this other option first...

I talked with my builder already he knows I do everything by the book and I’m pretty meticulous about how I handle things so he said just do what I think is appropriate see what I feel and then call him and we can go from there I know if I have any doubts in my head he will just listen to me and do whatever needs to be done he’s a pretty standup guy I have no fears there so I’m gonna let this ride for the next few days see what happens with my water temperature in my readings and take it from there’s I talked with my builder already he knows I do everything by the book and I’m pretty meticulous about how I handle things so he said just do what I think is appropriate see what I feel and then call him and we can go from there I know if I have any doubts in my head he will just listen to me and do whatever needs to be done he’s a pretty standup guy I have no fears there so I’m gonna let this ride for the next few days see what happens with my water temperature in my readings and take it from there.

If water temperature does play into all this then there are more variables going on so I’m just gonna let the water warm up this week like I said in the salt will absolutely be mixed extremely well by then.

Thamks everyone. So much great help!

 

[Dirk]

Good plan!

 

[jimim]

Just wanted to share.

My salt test: 3200-3400 ppm
My IC40 reading with water temp between 66-68: 2900-3000

I'm working on getting my CYA up so I can finally fire this thing up. I added 51 oz of CYA the other day. I still might be off a bit of the 70 but haven't tested it yet cause the sun hasn't been out in 5 days now! I swear when it's overcast out I don't get the same CYA reading so was waiting for a sunny day.

jim

 

[Jimrahbe]

News flash from the year 3918...

Ruins of an ancient swimming pool found under volcanic rock in NE PA...

It appears the pool was destroyed by volcanic activity in the year 2025, but the funny thing is that the Saltwater Chlorine Generator (SWCG) appears to have never been used...

Jim R.