Stever's Pool Build

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Re: Stever's Pool Build - (PASSED Inspection !!)

stever said:
Time is relative -- to the rest of the family, this has taken forever -- I should relay your story to them!

Where are you moving to? Hopefully somewhere where the water gets worm by itself but never needs to be cooled down.

Steve
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Oh, wow..4 years planning. You have me beat :-D I wish we were moving to SD. Nope, just a 4 day getaway to Dana Point. Cool off a bit and visit some parks. :goodjob:
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build - (PASSED Inspection !!)

I'm not a long-term reader, here, having only found this site well past the time we signed the contract. We're still under construction, waiting for decks to be poured in the next few days, small fixes to be done, then equipment placed, plaster poured, acid-washed, etc.

I've read your journey and after doing that, all I can do is try to keep my patience in check. I have very little to complain about! Your pool looks fantastic, and your setting is not an easy one to visualize (to me) how to plan a pool in this space. You did a great job with it. Congrats. I hope you and your family are enjoying it this weekend. If not, it won't be long, now.
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build - (PASSED Inspection !!)

mocitypool said:
I'm not a long-term reader, here, having only found this site well past the time we signed the contract. We're still under construction, waiting for decks to be poured in the next few days, small fixes to be done, then equipment placed, plaster poured, acid-washed, etc.
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Never feel that you can't make changes to things just because you have signed a contract. It's best, of course, to get it all set from the start, but who can do that? It's better to pay a bit more (for change-orders) or take another month than to regret a decision for the next 30 years. A good example is the size of our shallow end. When I saw it painted out it looked REALLY small. I had the diameter made 4'-0" larger and now it's just right. I would be stuck if I said "I'll get used to it". As it turns out the diameter of the pool remained about the same (due to less inset in the side of the particular pool shape I have) and the price is based on perimeter feet. No additionaol charge for a lot more pool!

mocitypool said:
I've read your journey and after doing that, all I can do is try to keep my patience in check. I have very little to complain about! Your pool looks fantastic, and your setting is not an easy one to visualize (to me) how to plan a pool in this space. You did a great job with it. Congrats. I hope you and your family are enjoying it this weekend. If not, it won't be long, now.
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It's not like we were constantly working on a solution for 4 years, but one of the concerns when we bought the house 4 years ago was to try to get a pool in. It has been testing on and off, civil plans, permits, etc for this time. My only regret is not being able to get a pool that can be seen from the house (both for safety and views) -- but no complaints.

This weekend I put together the landscape plan and am picking out / researching plants. The plan looks good (to me) but I am not the best at plant selection. Looking for fire resistance and low water, but not wild/woody/brown. Yes there are a few options out there I have found. I'm particularly fond of Mexican Sage if kept pruned (beautiful long-lasting flower, low/no water). Also looking at Daylilys, Kangaroo Paws, Lavender, Escalonia, Star Jasmine (to cover the chain-link fence) and maybe a Chinese Pistachio tree (but not too close to the pool). I will have a climbing Ficus Pumila/Repens cover the retaining walls.

Plaster tomorrow -- water by Tuesday evening -- Swim by Saturday!

Steve
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build - (PLASTER & WATER TODAY ! )

Dude! You're getting PLASTERED! :mrgreen:

You have been through alot with this project and your imagination to pull this off should give everyone inspiration that IT CAN BE DONE!

I can't wait to see it full of water and happy people! 8)

I wish you many :sun: days to enjoy your pool!

I want pics asap. :rambo: :mrgreen:
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build - (PLASTER & WATER TODAY ! )

OK -- Water is going in!! :-D

Came home after work to water about 6" below the light. It's filling pretty fast with 2 hoses at at least 10 gpm each. Might be filled as early as 6:00 tomorrow morning, but more likely mid-morning. It's gotten past the curves to the full (or almost) surface area and I'm timing it to see how much it rises in a few hours.

I don't want to create a vanishing edge pool :shock: !

Steve
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build - (PLASTER & WATER TODAY ! )

wow, that is a beautiful pool!!! congrats!!!

hope is all done soon!!! keep sending pics!!


chris
 
OK! We have water and the pool looks good. Very inviting -- too bad we've been told to stay out for 5 days (til next Tuesday). :cry:

A couple issues:

1) when the solar is on, the pump needs to be at mac 3400 RPM for 50 gpm. We only have 470 sq ft of panels.... is this normal? It'd be cheaper to use gas to heat the pool if I have to be at 2800 Watts for 6-8 hours a day to heat the pool with solar!

2) the setup guy had not heard of using a dummy insert for the SWG for the first 30 days. I showed him the place in the manual where it requires this, but there really is not choice but to run it with the cell as he doe snot have the dummy cell. He intends to acid clean it after 30 days -- what will this do to the life of the cell?

3) this is the Biggie: I'll need some hydraulics experts for this one. The schematic (abbreviater version below with unrelated equipment eliminated for clarity) shows the spa bypass to get more flow around the filter while in spa mode to lessen the pressure on the filter, lower the power usage and increase the spa jets. The check valve right after the heater closes in this mode and no water gets through unless the bypass is almost all of the way turned off.

At first I thought -- Of course, there is more pressure in the bypass than from the heater, so it'll shot that check-valve. Why is that valve there anway? To prevent flow bacl throught the filter.... but how could this happen? Yes, it seems there would be more pressure in the bypass, but to make the filter flow backwards (I want to avoid this) it would have to push back against the pump though the bypass valve -- that's higher pressure.... it should not happen..... but for the same reasons the check valve should not close either....

(interestingly if the bypass is urned on 100%, the pressure in the filter stays high, as it is 'locked' in from the check valve and the bypass valve. It lowers if the relieve valve lets the pressure out.)

I need the call out he experts! (thanks in advance).

PoolPipingDiagramDetailModel1.jpg


IMG_4553.jpg
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build (Hydraulics Experts Needed)

Whenever there are two flow paths which have the same origin and destination, the pressure loss and head loss must be equal between the two paths. This results is different flow rates between the different paths to achieve the same head loss.

Based upon your plumbing diagram and assuming the pool is not higher than the filter, there will never be a condition where the water would flow backwards through the filter since the downstream pressure is always lower than the pressure at the pump. Water will always flow from higher pressure to lower pressure.

The bypass has almost no head loss but a filter and heater could have the equivalent of several hundred feet of pipe. So most of the water will go through the bypass unless the bypass is severly restricted. So it sounds like it is operating as it should.
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build (Hydraulics Experts Needed)

mas985 said:
Whenever there are two flow paths which have the same origin and destination, the pressure loss and head loss must be equal between the two paths. This results is different flow rates between the different paths to achieve the same head loss.

Based upon your plumbing diagram and assuming the pool is not higher than the filter, there will never be a condition where the water would flow backwards through the filter since the downstream pressure is always lower than the pressure at the pump. Water will always flow from higher pressure to lower pressure.

The bypass has almost no head loss but a filter and heater could have the equivalent of several hundred feet of pipe. So most of the water will go through the bypass unless the bypass is severly restricted. So it sounds like it is operating as it should.
Click to expand...

Thank you for getting back to me. I understand that most of the water will go through the bypass and that i will have to shut the bypass down enough to 'encourage' water to go throught the filter/heater. The problem arizes when the spring check valve shuts down the water when there is very little flow/pressure int eh filter loop. In fact I can pressurize the filter with a low flow and the exit check valve shut down and then durn off the filter loop (all bypass) and the line will stay pressurized until I relieve it at the filter or shut down the pump.

The pool is a foot or two below the equipment.

Do I need the check valve that is causing a problem? I believe in looking at it now that this valve is doing nothing (but causing problems). Unfortunately the plumbing is so tightly plumbed to remove it would break down at least 25% of the pipes as there is no free pipe in this area for a union when the check valve is removed.

On another subject, when I manually turn down the spill/pool return valve when the flor gets small to (lets say) the spa, the check valve (different one from above) fills with air and shuts down. Where does this air come from? Is it always in some high spot int he pipes? If the pressure is increased, it will gurgle and puth the air away somewhere and start flow again.

Thanks
Steve
 

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Re: Stever's Pool Build (Hydraulics Experts Needed)

As you described, under some conditions the filter will remain pressurized while the pump is going even though there is little or no flow to it. This should not be a problem and should not cause any concern. It is ok to have the filter pressurized without any flow through it.

There is one condition that I though of where a small amount of water could flow backwards through the filter if the check valve was not there. It is when the pump is off and the valve is 100% bypass. When the pump is turned on, the filter will pressurize backwards although there is not much water flow to do this. This is probably the case for even when the valve is not entirely 100% to bypass. Because of the head loss in the filter/heater combo, without the check valve, when the pump is turned on, there might be some water traveling backwards.

I would leave the check valve in and not worry about the pressurized filter. Also, since the pad is below the pool, the check valve prevents the water from flowing backwards through the filter when the pump basket lid is open. Unless there is another check valve for the pool which is not shown on the drawing.

As for air entering the system, on a previous post you mentioned that you would be getting solar. Solar with a vacuum check valve will allow air to enter the plumbing so you will see it in the check valve until it is purged out.
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build (Hydraulics Experts Needed)

mas985 said:
There is one condition that I though of where a small amount of water could flow backwards through the filter if the check valve was not there. It is when the pump is off and the valve is 100% bypass. When the pump is turned on, the filter will pressurize backwards although there is not much water flow to do this. This is probably the case for even when the valve is not entirely 100% to bypass. Because of the head loss in the filter/heater combo, without the check valve, when the pump is turned on, there might be some water traveling backwards.

I would leave the check valve in and not worry about the pressurized filter. Also, since the pad is below the pool, the check valve prevents the water from flowing backwards through the filter when the pump basket lid is open. Unless there is another check valve for the pool which is not shown on the drawing.
Click to expand...
Thank you. This is very helpfull. I have since been able to run more tests at different speeds and found that it is in fact acting as it should. What I was doing before was not at terribly high speeds -- a condition that will not exist in Spa Mode. It will still shut down at a certain point, but this can be avoided. Interestingly, at high flows, if the bypass valve is in the center (Both sides open if I assume correctly) there is a good flow (don't know if the desired 40 gpm) through the filter. If this is not enough, I'll adjust it to close off the bypass a little.

What I had not noticed before was that there is a 2" swing check valve hidden int he back just after the filter. This puts two check valves in this filter/heater/chlorinator circuit -- so I certainly don't need the 3" spring check valve (and its associated back-pressure). I also found that the 3" valve had o-rings and flanges (for clean-out I'm sure) and can be removed. I found that the 'guts' of the valve are not removable, though. Is there a 'blank' of some sort that can be put in its place? If not I could carefully hack out the guts of the valve....

As for the spa being higher than the pump and the valve needed (not that I don't have another) I noticed when i slid the valve out that the water receeded to about 2" below the bottom of the valve -- the level of the spa (I had 'eyed' that it should be somewhere about there or would not have 'opened' the system).

I also found that the maximum GPS I can drive is 108 (with the bypass valve both sides open in center as above). As the VF pump will not read actual GPM I kept increasing the GPM until it hit tha maximum RPM. This is short of the 120 GPM desired, but putting my hand in front of the jets certaily enough. With the 3" spring check valve removed it'll maybe hit 110.

- The pressure is about 10 psi on the pump at 40 GPM with no bypass and half spill/half pool return.

- The pressire is about 25 psi in spa mode at 108 GPM with bypass 'both open'.

Do these seem reasonable?

Thanks,
Steve
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build (Hydraulics Experts Needed)

stever said:
- The pressure is about 10 psi on the pump at 40 GPM with no bypass and half spill/half pool return.

- The pressire is about 25 psi in spa mode at 108 GPM with bypass 'both open'.

Do these seem reasonable?

Thanks,
Steve
Click to expand...

Yes
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build (Hydraulics Experts Needed)

cobra46 said:
Steve,

When do we get to see some pictures?

Kevin
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Sorry -- Here's a few pics!

Getting Plastered:
IMG_4974.jpg


Spa (just holes for the jets -- they said it's typical):
IMG_4980.jpg


Filling:
IMG_4975.jpg


IMG_4977.jpg


Filled:
IMG_4991.jpg


IMG_4994.jpg


IMG_4995.jpg



Now we just need to go in (tomorrow)!!!! :lol: :-D :sunny: :punkrock:

The landscaping needs a bit of work.... that's next.

Thanks for all your help!! I just got my TF-100 kit -- perfect timing.

(Oh, and the Wall Whale is a lifesaver for all the new-pool brushing -- it's GREAT!)

Steve
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build (PICTURES FILLED!)

OMG it looks amazing!!!! I love how it all flows together. It sure does feel nice when something that was just a figment of your imagination becomes real doesn't it! Congrats and enjoy your new gorgeous pool :goodjob:
 
Re: Stever's Pool Build (PICTURES FILLED!)

I love it! Enjoy your pool stever! It looks crystal clear and I soooooo love the light blueness of the water!!!! I really do! 8)
 

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