Spa Spillover Problem

[rphpool]

I wanted to add that my water feature is just like yours (3 ). My PB installed ball valves on each one for the very reason you are having problems with. The first time we turned it on we had to adjust each ball valve to make each of the falls look alike. FTI, Each of the ball valves once adjusted are in different positions then each other.

I also have the spillover mode from my spa like yours. I run spillover just 5 min a day ( to cut down on aeration ) at 3450. My spillover ledge is made of stacked pavers though but water spilling over does cover the entire spillover evenly. Have you put a level on that stone both sideways and back to front. It looks like the stone was set with the front higher then the back causing the water to flow to the sides. Not sure if they can reset the stone or grind down the middle front section.

 

[Jimrahbe]

rph,

I don't have a spa, so not a lot of first hand spa knowledge... But, I would assume that with a 3 HP pump running at 3450 rpm you would have a pretty good amount of water flowing out of your overflow..

Curious if the amount of water you are getting looks the same at the OP's original pics... To me, the flow out of the spillover seems very weak in volume regardless of how well the stone is placed.

Would like your feedback as you actually have a spillover..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[bizzle]

I also have a spillover and the water coming out of my 3HP Pentair VS at 1100 RPMs pushes at least, if not more, water over the edge. With it running full bore the water looks like one of those waterfalls he has. I have to turn my pump down to around 700 RPMs to get it to trickle like that and I don't run my pump that slow because the skimmer doesn't even seem to work at that point (among other issues).

 

[Jimrahbe]

I also have a spillover and the water coming out of my 3HP Pentair VS at 1100 RPMs pushes at least, if not more, water over the edge. With it running full bore the water looks like one of those waterfalls he has. I have to turn my pump down to around 700 RPMs to get it to trickle like that and I don't run my pump that slow because the skimmer doesn't even seem to work at that point (among other issues).

B,

Thanks for the feedback... What you described is exactly the way I am assuming the OP's spillover should work. So... where is all the water going???

Jim R.

 

[Dodger]

The powerfall on the right constantly stays wet as pictured. He said that is normal.

If it was normal, then the other 2 powerfalls would stay constantly wet too.

We had the wet wall issue on one of our sheer descents. Turned out that the inside of the scupper was leaking down into our brick wall and the soil behind it. This is when the individual ball valve came in handy. We shut off that individual sheer descent until we could get inside the pool and seal the cracks on the inside of the scupper. It's only been a few months, but so far that seems to have fixed the problem.

In your case, the powerfall is too thin to see inside. The only way I see to address it is to pull up the coping.

Attached are my waterfalls, notice the middle on is limp. The PB said there is nothing he can do about it.

We also had uneven flow from our 3 sheer descents. Part of it was due to leaks at the ball valves and pvc couplers immediately into the back of the sheers. We recently replaced all this 25+ year old plumbing back to the risers. Another part of the pressure difference was related to leaks at the back outside of the scuppers, which we sealed.

The bummer is that in your case, you don't have access to that plumbing or inside the powerfall. For a new build, there is no way I would let the PB go without addressing all of this. It will only get worse over time and damage your stone. I would push him to remove some of the hardscape to find the leaks.

 

[rphpool]

Jim,

When I run mine at 3450rpm it REALLY comes over the spa spillway like a waterfall. I run it like that once per day. Other times I have my valves set to return water to the pool (90%) and spa (10%) and the VSP is at 1500rpm. I get a nice trickle that covers the entire spillway.

I agree with you that it looks like a very weak flow. I wonder if valves are not opened all the way or stuck.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I agree with you that it looks like a very weak flow. I wonder if valves are not opened all the way or stuck.

rph,

My "guess" is that the OP's intake valve is set so that when in the spillover mode, he is sucking some water from the spa.. This reduces the amount of water going to the overflow..

But that is just a guess based upon his pics and I can't really see the intake valve very clearly...

Jim R.

 

[rphpool]

I agree. I have been looking at it for 5 minutes and can't tell 100% either. Spillover mode requires 100% suction from pool, 100% return to spa only, no spa suction at all. Only other thing it could be is some of the spa jets are closed or not opened all the way.

 

[Pool Clown]

Two cents...more like two bits.

If you could, Please clear away the pine needles that are on top of the plumbing @ ground level in the left side of the picture and snap another pic. There are two lateral running pipes that i can't see where they are going. My guess is that the one on the far left is the cleaner out back to the pool. But can't see if the other tee's into the W/F output (possible issue), or goes into the ground.

Your main velocity/volume issues i believe lie in the chlorinator as Jim touched on. The by-pass/ventury that is the ozone unit helps, but you are still running at quite a deficit in terms of getting water volume needed over the spillway. If the valve actuator at the front of the filter pump is not completely inline with the plumbing, then water is recycling in the spa, and you are never getting full pump outlet or water volume across the spillway. You need to adjust the valve actuator to close the spa side completely when in the pool direction. And either remove, replace with a higher gpm version, or plumb in a bypass around the chlorinator. If your pool builder balks at this, then tell him you are uncomfortable with how close the feeder is to the heater. If you don't have a check valve between the heater and that feeder, you run the risk of chemical eroding the exchanger in the heater when the system is idle. If he doesn't believe you, call Jandy. They can get you the literature you need to prove your case.

The best thing at this point regarding the spillway stone would be to remove the rounded edge at the edge of the spillway by having your mason grind it off, creating a more sharp (90 degree) vertical edge. this should only take about 3/8 to a 1/2 inch off and will create a better sheet of water coming off the spillway. The groove that Jim refers to only helps control evaporation with the water running back to the wall. The groove creates like a fire break, not allowing any water to migrate past the groove.

 

[sthrndream]

So,

The PB came over today and I had him explain to me how the pump runs and they drew on the pipes with a sharpie to show how the water is moving. He said that the pump has a check valve on it that keeps constant water in the pipes and that is why I see water coming out of the right powerfall. He did say that the pipe below the wet waterfall could not be exactly level, hence why I am seeing water at the powerfall.

I am to run the waterfalls for 24 hrs to see if there is an appreciable leak that is making the stone wet. He did say I would lose water due to aeration as well, so we will see where we are in 24 hrs.

The powerfalls are run by a Jandy 1.5 HPFM Powerflo pump. Based on the Jandy chart it runs 80 gpm at 50 head and I spoke with the CPM Powerfall rep and he said my waterfalls need 26GPM each, so everything seems to check. Please look at the attached photos.

I asked the PB why the waterfalls worked before he added the pump and he said because I couldn't run both powerfalls and spillover at the same time off the Jandy VS 2.7 pool pump. So he had to rob Peter to pay Paul by adding a pump (1.5 HP) and re-configuring the plumbing by tying in to the existing line. When he did that he had to plumb into the return that is two pool drains below. Look at the configuration in the attached photos.

I asked about ball valve joints. While they are recommended, they are not required. He said he would have to tear up the concrete and install oval boxes that would take away from the look. He did not say if I would have to pay for that.

He did offer to reconfigure the equipment the way it was, taking away the ability to have both on at the same time and refund my $1500, but I dont want to go there. He also said he couldnt guarantee that it would level the pressurization of the waterfalls.

The spillover stone needs to be cut again and the PB will have the mason do that.

All water is drawn from the pool to the filter and back out. So spillover mode has water come from pool drain, thru filter to spa and over the spillover.

Please chime in on what you think.

 

[sthrndream]

 

[Dodger]

Balancing the powerfalls may be something I would just live with, given you don't know if there is a leak or just slightly different hydraulics. Not sure I would want to rip things up for ball valves on each line.

But the water blotch below one of the powerfalls and not on the others is still concerning. I understand the check valve comment he made, so I suppose that if that one is plumbed slightly lower, than the water held in the line will push toward it and drip out. That's a poor design, if you ask me. Can you actually see that powerfall still dripping for awhile after shut-off? Or is the stone itself weeping without a drip from above?

Over time, you may have a scaling issue on that stone (not to suggest you wouldn't keep perfect TFPC chemistry!). And the mortar may physically deteriorate over time.


Added: Is that check valve necessary?

 

[Jimrahbe]

S,

I'm not sure what to say??? You still did not get your pool builder to tell you why you are not getting a massive amount of water over your spillover when the pump is running at 3450 rpm... If I understand correctly, your original pump was running your waterfalls just fine.. Assuming that is true, then you should be able to get the same amount of water flowing over your spillway using the same pump. The pool builder needs to tell you why it is not working that way...

If you read Pool Clown's post above, he believes the problem is your 3" tablet dispenser is restricting the flow. This sounds logical to me.. I would also like to see a good shot of the Main Pump Intake valve when the system is in the spillover mode... just to make sure the valve is fully shutting off the Spa drain input.

The drawings, that I assume the pool builder gave you, are basically correct as to the three main modes of pool/spa operation.

The only way to make the waterfalls look the same would be to install adjusting valves on each one... Not sure the problem is bad enough to worry about. I see no reason for the check valve in the water fall line... I would want the water to drain back out of the pipes when off, just so that I would not have to worry about them in cold weather...

Personally, I would look into Pool Clown's suggestion to plumb a bypass around the tab dispenser...

I'll be glad to try and answer any questions, but I'm out of new ideas...

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[bizzle]

Unless I'm mistaken, the spillover used to work properly *and* the waterfalls used to work correctly, but they didn't work at the same time.

It was only after the PB cut into his plumbing and inserted an extra pump to run the waterfalls by themselves that the spillover stopped working properly.

 

[Pool Clown]

The check valve is to keep the filter pump from pulling water, and then air, backward through the water feature pump when the filter pump is running but not the W/F pump. That is in the event that the "PMD" port of the "PMD/SK" valve gets opened. You should be pulling a percentage of water through there anyway (its the main drain line), but in your case its not critical unless you are having circulation issues predominately in the summer months (TBD).

I still think if you can get the PB to replace that tab feeder with an "off line" type (try a rainbow 300 Pentair part #R171016), and face the spillway stone, you will see a big improvement.



One way you can eliminate the the dribble on the W/F is to raise the elevation on the discharge pipe coming out of the pump to an elevation 1 ft to 18 inches higher than the elevation of the waterfall(s) and put a tee with a vacuum release on it. As it is now, you are holding water right at the waterfall and the one that is leaking is a little lower in elevation than the other two. If you put the vac release in, the plumbing will drain out when the pump turns off, empty-ing all the water in that pipe thus leaving none to dribble out. The picture above shows what this plumbing should look like when completed. The pipe on the right should be coming out of the pump, and the pipe on the left goes into the ground back to the W/F. I just dry fitted the fittings to give an idea what it looks like.

Does that make any sense?

I would post a pic of a vacuum release that you can use, but Photobucket.com wont let me anymore. Here is a part number though.

Edit: Found a new host! Postimage.org. Relatively easy to use. I registered, but i don't think you have to in order to use the site. I was able to embed a couple of pictures here before i registered.


WATTS 3/4" LFN36M1
Vacuum Relief Valve