This thread has so quickly flown over my head. More pics please!
Absolutely gorgeous looking!
Absolutely gorgeous looking!
South Florida - New In-ground Large Build
- Thread starter John_and_Val
- Start date
tampatommy - it goes over my head too!!!!! I go back and read, reread, re-reread, just to make sure i got things right.
@MyAZPool - I talked to pentair yesterday - In regards to the setting for the heater(s)....they said the way they work is that the heaters work off of a heat pump "preferred" circuitry. So the heat pump will run until the computer figures out that the temperature is not rising and then it shuts the heat pump down and fires up the gas heater.
What they could not answer was how this was achieved....is it a certain temperature? A certain length of time the heat pump runs? A calculation of run time vs. temperature increase? No one knew! So I am trying to find that out.
I ordered the second load center, expansion board, and 400,000 btu mastertemp yesterday.
Now i just have to figure out the NEMA enclosure......
@MyAZPool - I talked to pentair yesterday - In regards to the setting for the heater(s)....they said the way they work is that the heaters work off of a heat pump "preferred" circuitry. So the heat pump will run until the computer figures out that the temperature is not rising and then it shuts the heat pump down and fires up the gas heater.
What they could not answer was how this was achieved....is it a certain temperature? A certain length of time the heat pump runs? A calculation of run time vs. temperature increase? No one knew! So I am trying to find that out.
I ordered the second load center, expansion board, and 400,000 btu mastertemp yesterday.
Now i just have to figure out the NEMA enclosure......
Phase 1 of travertine is complete - just have to cut the "lids" for the skimmers and laminars. This way the deck is nice and clean with no circular lids showing.....
Sand, Sweep, Wet -
Repeat!!!! I need a bigger broom!!!!
Sand, Sweep, Wet -
Repeat!!!! I need a bigger broom!!!!
John_and_Val
About a week ago, I scanned the two heater manuals and I could not find any feature like that. Interesting. I'll look again more carefully, but I don't think this particular feature is documented. Maybe someone on TFP has done something like this in the past (connecting the two heaters so they work in "unison"), I just personally have never heard of it. It may come down to some experimentation on your part once everthing is up and running. I just can't help but scratch my head, why Pentair is saying you can do it but that they don't know how?
Someone there must know, if they in fact have designed the heaters to do that?Yea, you should be able to find that NEMA enclosure large enough to house all of the transformers along with the appropriate cooling/venting feature(s) online, if that is how you wish to proceed. Maybe check out that "example" link I provided in post #267 as a starting point. Interested to see what you come up with in regards to the enclosure.
I have no doubt it's really going to be a nice setup.r.
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I can't take credit for the install.....hired someone to do it. I have to choose my battles - so I choose this yesterday
And yes - I am feeling it today.
And yes - I am feeling it today.
JOHN??? DUDE! You are a beast!!! How many bags is that? How many bags at one time did you mix up? Did you do all of them in the wheel barrow?? Here have a few of these 
Kim
Kim
Hi Jon and Val. New member here. I was wondering where you purchased the waterline tile and travertine. I am in South Miami and starting to look at suppliers. Thanks!
I think i used like 45 bags.....and i have a small mixer - I can throw 2 bags at a time. But the pain was i had to dump the mud into a bucket and spread in the pad.....didn't have room for the mixer to sit next to pad!
@kimkats @bdavis466 - I wanted to throw this at you and see what you think. The wife and I decided we need to make this table top POP ...........so..............
Attached are the travertine colors - the water line/step/fire bowl pedestal and table pedestal tile - and something along the lines like this for the table top.
I can get one cheap piece of any kind of granite and one piece of this (or similar).....Epoxy them together and have a couple of 16"x16" pieces epoxied where the hole will be cut out on the bottom. This way I can epoxy in that and set the table top on the pedestal.
and again - the thickness of the top will be given by the mitered edge. I am thinking 1" below water and 2 or 3" above.
What do you all think?
@kimkats @bdavis466 - I wanted to throw this at you and see what you think. The wife and I decided we need to make this table top POP ...........so..............
Attached are the travertine colors - the water line/step/fire bowl pedestal and table pedestal tile - and something along the lines like this for the table top.
I can get one cheap piece of any kind of granite and one piece of this (or similar).....Epoxy them together and have a couple of 16"x16" pieces epoxied where the hole will be cut out on the bottom. This way I can epoxy in that and set the table top on the pedestal.
and again - the thickness of the top will be given by the mitered edge. I am thinking 1" below water and 2 or 3" above.
What do you all think?
@MyAZPool
Ok, so productive day on the phone with pentair and others (i needed a break from the outdoors!!!).....All bad news though!!!
1 - The NEMA 4 idea.......my great city inspectors shot the idea down. They said once you remove the enclosure, it is no longer a listed product. No list - no inspection!
So, how about this - I mount all the transformers on the wall, and run all wiring into a couple of large jboxes, and then only a couple of conduits to the load centers?
you think that will work? I loved your idea, but the city..............arrrrrgh
2 - Heaters - Talked to pentair heater guy and automation guy. Seems like there is a separation problem inside pentair. It is like the silo theory! One department doesn't know the other. Anyway, bottom line is the only working order of these heater is this:
In "heat pump preferred" mode - the heat pump is the primary heater. You program for it to heat the pool to 85 degrees. You program it to attempt to heat to 85 degrees for 15 minutes. If it fails to do so, it will turn off and now the gas heater will turn on. Problem is - once temperature reaches 85 degrees, it will not revert back to the heat pump to maintain the temperature.
Now I am thinking about it, I am not sure if the programming is done in the intellicenter or the heaters?
I guess it will be a trial and error kind of thing once up and running.
Let me know your thoughts
Ok, so productive day on the phone with pentair and others (i needed a break from the outdoors!!!).....All bad news though!!!
1 - The NEMA 4 idea.......my great city inspectors shot the idea down. They said once you remove the enclosure, it is no longer a listed product. No list - no inspection!
So, how about this - I mount all the transformers on the wall, and run all wiring into a couple of large jboxes, and then only a couple of conduits to the load centers?
you think that will work? I loved your idea, but the city..............arrrrrgh
2 - Heaters - Talked to pentair heater guy and automation guy. Seems like there is a separation problem inside pentair. It is like the silo theory! One department doesn't know the other. Anyway, bottom line is the only working order of these heater is this:
In "heat pump preferred" mode - the heat pump is the primary heater. You program for it to heat the pool to 85 degrees. You program it to attempt to heat to 85 degrees for 15 minutes. If it fails to do so, it will turn off and now the gas heater will turn on. Problem is - once temperature reaches 85 degrees, it will not revert back to the heat pump to maintain the temperature.
Now I am thinking about it, I am not sure if the programming is done in the intellicenter or the heaters?
I guess it will be a trial and error kind of thing once up and running.
Let me know your thoughts
Travertine was purchased at Sinai Marble and Tile in Deerfield Beach.
Waterline tile is a NPT product. It can be purchased at a SCP Distributor.
John_and_Val
And then from the J-box(s) into the applicable Load Center(s). I'll amend my drawing(s) and post, if you want me to in order to show this revised concept.
This is basically the concept that I used (just no transformers). All of my low voltage items (heater switch, 6 intellivalves, IntelliChlor, Water Temp Sensor, etc.) run into a J-Box and from there, just one conduit into the low voltage raceway knockout of the Load Center. Same with line voltage. Heater, 2 pumps, Water Refill Meter power, Equipment Pad Light all feed into another Line Voltage J-Box and then into a line side knockout in the Load Center (Pool Light has it's own dedicated brass conduit feeding into Load Center).
Great Job on the Pad. You're getting there!!!
r.
RATS!. Okay, I like your "fallback plan" though. Yes, large J-boxes. Maybe one J-Box for the transformer wiring that feed into the Main Load Center and two more for the transformers whose wiring feed into the Expansion Load Center?
And then from the J-box(s) into the applicable Load Center(s). I'll amend my drawing(s) and post, if you want me to in order to show this revised concept.
This is basically the concept that I used (just no transformers). All of my low voltage items (heater switch, 6 intellivalves, IntelliChlor, Water Temp Sensor, etc.) run into a J-Box and from there, just one conduit into the low voltage raceway knockout of the Load Center. Same with line voltage. Heater, 2 pumps, Water Refill Meter power, Equipment Pad Light all feed into another Line Voltage J-Box and then into a line side knockout in the Load Center (Pool Light has it's own dedicated brass conduit feeding into Load Center).
I did scour the IntelliCenter documentation when you first mentioned this concept and I did not find anything (but that is not conclusive). I will run this by someone I know, and see what his thoughts are. I'll be sure to pass along any relevant info I can dig up. But like you said, it might be "experimentation time" once all is up and running. Worst case is once water reaches desired temp, you kill one heater and energize the other. But hopefully a better solution is out there.
Great Job on the Pad. You're getting there!!!
r.
@MyAZPool
Awesome, looking forward to seeing updated drawings.
Just want to confirm with you - I looked at all the wattage and I should be able to get away with 100 W transformers for 2 bubblers, 2 intellibrites, 1 globrite, 3 pentair landscape lights
300 W for Laminars (three of them - they are rated at 100W, so the 80% rule makes me go to 300 W)
Also, good news is if you look at the pad pour, I left the "highway" for electrical conduit open, so we can at least hide the conduit underground a little.
Awesome, looking forward to seeing updated drawings.
Just want to confirm with you - I looked at all the wattage and I should be able to get away with 100 W transformers for 2 bubblers, 2 intellibrites, 1 globrite, 3 pentair landscape lights
300 W for Laminars (three of them - they are rated at 100W, so the 80% rule makes me go to 300 W)
Also, good news is if you look at the pad pour, I left the "highway" for electrical conduit open, so we can at least hide the conduit underground a little.
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John_and_Val
What about the transformers for the F/W bowls, Firepit and Tiki Torch Igniters. Before I finish the diagram, what transformers are using for those? Model #s?
Another question: Are you sure you want to use the PS100 for the landscape lights (and not the PS300)? The PS100 will give you a maximum of 6 lights (90 watts). No plans for more than that in the future?
Let me know and I will finish up the drawings.
r.
What about the transformers for the F/W bowls, Firepit and Tiki Torch Igniters. Before I finish the diagram, what transformers are using for those? Model #s?
Another question: Are you sure you want to use the PS100 for the landscape lights (and not the PS300)? The PS100 will give you a maximum of 6 lights (90 watts). No plans for more than that in the future?
Let me know and I will finish up the drawings.
r.
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Hey john, when the plumbing is completed at the pad, if you do it or your plumber, have him use clear PVC cleaner and glue instead of the purple stuff. That way it looks clean as a whistle!
So you are telling me (the BLING
) that you want to put MY BLING tile on the pedestals then using that BLUE stone as the top?? Be still my heart!! OH YEAH!!!! Did you really think I would say NO??? hehe.................now have you see the BLUE stone yet? Have you had the BLING tile by it to make sure the colors blend well together?Kim
John_and_Val
And along those lines, I placed all of my low voltage wiring, also in conduits (FNMC) or Split Wire Loom Tubing (as applicable). No wires at all on the pad. All in conduits. Super clean look. Something to think about. Here, you can see what I mean.
Good thinking!
Yep, I sure did see that. Perfect! It will be very clean.
And along those lines, I placed all of my low voltage wiring, also in conduits (FNMC) or Split Wire Loom Tubing (as applicable). No wires at all on the pad. All in conduits. Super clean look. Something to think about. Here, you can see what I mean.
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John_and_Val
So, once again I scoured the MasterTemp (Gas Heater) and UltraTemp (Heat Pump) manuals on the subject that we have been discussing earlier. FOUND IT!!
pp13 of the UltraTemp Heat Pump Installation and User's Guide.
If the heat pump is used in conjunction with a gas heater, use a 520403 Dual Heater Relay Kit. Plug the heat pump relay connector onto the SOLAR Terminal on the top center of thePersonality Board (for you, that will be the IntelliCenter Control System Circuit Board (between VALVE B and EHTR). Follow the Dual Heater Relay Kit instructions for further set-up details. Be sure to install solar temperature sensor as per instructions.
So if I am interpreting this correctly, you will utilize the solar heating feature within the automation to control the Heat Pump (UltraTemp) and that must be how it integrates together. I think this is what we are looking for. What do you think?
After spending some time with the documentation, I must say that the UltraTemp is impressive as it relates to integrating with the automation (some nice features).
I did find these two pieces as well as they are applicable to your particular setup:
Heat Pumps are best utilized to maintain a set water
temperature; they are not intended to provide instant or
fast heating. It is not reasonable to expect a heat pump to
perform like a gas heater which has a much higher BTU
output and faster response. Additionally, gas heaters are
not dependent on environmental conditions. Swimming
pool heat pumps are very similar to home heating and
air conditioning heat pumps and therefore should be
treated similarly.
Also this:
In certain regions of the country it may be more
economical to run a heat pump during the warmer months
and a gas heater during the cooler months. In some
situations it may be desirable to run the heat pump in the
“Chiller” mode, if so equipped, during the hottest portion
of the year and a heater during the cooler months. The
Pentair heat pump may be used in conjunction with a
gas or electric heater or any combination of heat sources
including solar. All heat sources must be plumbed in
series to work correctly and efficiently.
So nice job in selecting both, for the ultimate in heating configurations!
One more thing. As you have ordered the IntelliCenter i10x Expansion Kit (522034). When you receive it, would you mind taking a photo of the expansion board and posting it (high res preferable) or sending it to me via PM?
I am thinking about some of your RS-485 or (Com Port) connections. By my count, you will have five (5) RS-485 (Com Port) connections to be made. ADDENDUM: Six (6) Com Port connections if utilizing the Wireless Transceiver (Client Bridge to Wireless Router).
1. IntelliFloXF VSF pump #1 (J5 - ComPort A)
2. IntelliFloXF VSF pump #2
3. IntelliChlor (J4 - ComPort B)
4. UltraTemp
5. Expansion Board.
The IntelliCenter Main Mother Card only has two (J4 and J5).
I want to see if there are any more Com Ports on the Expansion Card. If there is enough, then you're good.
If not, then you will need the Pentair Serial COM Expansion Board (520818). Not a big deal and about $53.00 (on Amazon) Maybe less at PolyTec. It will then provide you with three more Com Ports. It mounts in the Main Load Center on the back wall behind the Mother and Daughter cards as illustrated below. You may even need two of these cards depending on what I can see on the Expansion Kit Board.
Besides, either way you're going to need it, once Pentair releases the update to allow for RS-485 connectivity to your IntelliValves, if you are planning on taking advantage of that feature. My guess is that you are.
r.
So, once again I scoured the MasterTemp (Gas Heater) and UltraTemp (Heat Pump) manuals on the subject that we have been discussing earlier. FOUND IT!!
pp13 of the UltraTemp Heat Pump Installation and User's Guide.
If the heat pump is used in conjunction with a gas heater, use a 520403 Dual Heater Relay Kit. Plug the heat pump relay connector onto the SOLAR Terminal on the top center of the
So if I am interpreting this correctly, you will utilize the solar heating feature within the automation to control the Heat Pump (UltraTemp) and that must be how it integrates together. I think this is what we are looking for. What do you think?
After spending some time with the documentation, I must say that the UltraTemp is impressive as it relates to integrating with the automation (some nice features).
I did find these two pieces as well as they are applicable to your particular setup:
Heat Pumps are best utilized to maintain a set water
temperature; they are not intended to provide instant or
fast heating. It is not reasonable to expect a heat pump to
perform like a gas heater which has a much higher BTU
output and faster response. Additionally, gas heaters are
not dependent on environmental conditions. Swimming
pool heat pumps are very similar to home heating and
air conditioning heat pumps and therefore should be
treated similarly.
Also this:
In certain regions of the country it may be more
economical to run a heat pump during the warmer months
and a gas heater during the cooler months. In some
situations it may be desirable to run the heat pump in the
“Chiller” mode, if so equipped, during the hottest portion
of the year and a heater during the cooler months. The
Pentair heat pump may be used in conjunction with a
gas or electric heater or any combination of heat sources
including solar. All heat sources must be plumbed in
series to work correctly and efficiently.
So nice job in selecting both, for the ultimate in heating configurations!
One more thing. As you have ordered the IntelliCenter i10x Expansion Kit (522034). When you receive it, would you mind taking a photo of the expansion board and posting it (high res preferable) or sending it to me via PM?
I am thinking about some of your RS-485 or (Com Port) connections. By my count, you will have five (5) RS-485 (Com Port) connections to be made. ADDENDUM: Six (6) Com Port connections if utilizing the Wireless Transceiver (Client Bridge to Wireless Router).
1. IntelliFloXF VSF pump #1 (J5 - ComPort A)
2. IntelliFloXF VSF pump #2
3. IntelliChlor (J4 - ComPort B)
4. UltraTemp
5. Expansion Board.
The IntelliCenter Main Mother Card only has two (J4 and J5).
I want to see if there are any more Com Ports on the Expansion Card. If there is enough, then you're good.
If not, then you will need the Pentair Serial COM Expansion Board (520818). Not a big deal and about $53.00 (on Amazon) Maybe less at PolyTec. It will then provide you with three more Com Ports. It mounts in the Main Load Center on the back wall behind the Mother and Daughter cards as illustrated below. You may even need two of these cards depending on what I can see on the Expansion Kit Board.
Besides, either way you're going to need it, once Pentair releases the update to allow for RS-485 connectivity to your IntelliValves, if you are planning on taking advantage of that feature. My guess is that you are.
r.
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@MyAZPool
I am unsure of what model transformer for the fire bowls, as I do not have them yet. But I do know they will be a 24V system. With that being said I am going to assume the fire pit and tiki torches are also 24V.
I am thinking 2 transformers for landscape lighting. (1) at 100W - this will be for (3) pentair uplights to hit (3) individual slyvester palms placed around the pool in the landscape bed.
Then, (you are right) - (1) 300W transformer for the ground lighting around the back yard.
Good catch!
I am unsure of what model transformer for the fire bowls, as I do not have them yet. But I do know they will be a 24V system. With that being said I am going to assume the fire pit and tiki torches are also 24V.
I am thinking 2 transformers for landscape lighting. (1) at 100W - this will be for (3) pentair uplights to hit (3) individual slyvester palms placed around the pool in the landscape bed.
Then, (you are right) - (1) 300W transformer for the ground lighting around the back yard.
Good catch!