So this just happened....

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This whole thing is making me concerned. My Orange Clone (Triton PS Plus is the same as the S300i) is headed back to Maytronics for the second time. The one thing I can say is that the "plus" is in the power supply. So a Triton PS can become a Plus with the right power supply.
My issue, these are sold with a programming schedule. If they cannot live in water, what is the point of a multiday programmed schedule? What is the point of being able to remotely turn it on if it isn't in the water?
I think I'm going to keep TOM out of the water when I'm out of town and in the winter time.
 
Matt, congrats on rebuilding the motor. I used to have to replace carbon brushes on my Honda Accord's vent blower system. I had big blocks of graphite from grounding brushes from a 80MW gas turbine. I cut off pieces and fit them.

BTW, how much was the pallet of motors?
 
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This whole thing is making me concerned. My Orange Clone (Triton PS Plus is the same as the S300i) is headed back to Maytronics for the second time. The one thing I can say is that the "plus" is in the power supply. So a Triton PS can become a Plus with the right power supply.
My issue, these are sold with a programming schedule. If they cannot live in water, what is the point of a multiday programmed schedule? What is the point of being able to remotely turn it on if it isn't in the water?
I think I'm going to keep TOM out of the water when I'm out of town and in the winter time.

I’ll say this - if you need to use the programming feature so the bot can run unattended, like when you go on vacation, so be it. You need to keep a pool clean. But if you’re there and you can afford the time, take it in and out. There’s literally only 5 rubber o-ring seals separating life from death for these robots … it’s a huge risk.

I do believe that water temperature matters a lot too. The last two years I would use the robot in the depths of our Sonoran winters to clean. Pool water doesn’t freeze here but it gets pretty darn cold (high 30’s). And I know I left the robot in the pool for days on end. I believe the Dolphin manual is fairly specific about not running the robot when the water gets cold. I would agree that cold water will shrink the seals and increase the risk of pool water getting into the motor case.

Matt, congrats on rebuilding the motor. I used to have to replace carbon brushes on my Honda Accord's vent blower system. I had big blocks of graphite from grounding brushes from a 80MW gas turbine. I cut off pieces and fit them.

BTW, how much was the pallet of motors?

Not entirely sure. The company that makes them is located in China and they were pricing everything in Yuan. I wanted to pay in Russian Rubles. We thought we could agree on a swap of cryptocurrency and then they backed out. So no joy on the pallet of spares…
 
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So the brushes are external to the motor itself... Does this mean that you did nothing to the seal around the motor shaft where it exits the motor box??

So to be more specific about the answer, there are two different flavors of water pump motors - old and new. My motor assembly is from 2016 and @Apsuhead posted a picture of their Pentair Warrior water pump motor after their motor assembly was replaced under warranty -

Old school (circa 2016) DC Motor -


Newer (circa 2019) DC motor -


You'll notice that the newer design uses a fully enclosed end cap with the brushes inside that. There is also a PCB inside that end cap that has two inductors in series with the power connection to act as high frequency chokes. My guess is the electrical noise from the motor's commutator was probably causing issues on the control board. My control board has some surface mount inductors on it so I wonder if they updated their electrical design. Either way, the brushes can be accessed on the newer motor by simply removing the end cap. Both of those motors of functionally equivalent but I like the newer design as the end cap is better at keeping the carbon dust contained.

As for carbon brushes, these are what I ordered from McMaster-Carr -

Carbon Brushes with Shunt and Terminal, 1/4" Wide x 13/16" High x 1/4" Thick


However, the 1/4" (~6mm) brushes were kind of big and I had to grind down two sides to make then fit the channel which was more like 4.7mm x 5.7mm . McMaster-Carr also sells 3/16" (4.8mm) brushes and I think those would probably work better or just need minimal shaping. And they cost $6 instead of $9. However, you can look on Amazon and easily find 6mm brushes in like packs of 10 but the only thing is they don't come with the terminal connector crimped on, just the copper wire.

I also assume that you did not do any bearing replacement.

Actually, I did have to replace the rear bearing (see Post #373 and Post #419). The rear bearing on my old motor design is somewhat exposed. Water and carbon dust got to it and it was shot - it did not turn smoothly at all. I did soak it in penetrating oil (Liquid Wrench brand) and that cleaned it up a lot as well as made it turn more smoothly but it was still not good. So I went ahead and replaced it. I got the replacement bearing from McMaster-Carr as well. Most bearings are stamped with their Trade Number on them so that they can be easily compared. The rear bearing on my motor was stamped with 626-RS which is equivalent to a 626-2RS.

Permanently Lubricated Stainless Steel Ball Bearing, Sealed, Trade No. 626-2RS, for 6 mm Shaft Diameter

It's designed for a 6mm diameter shaft with a housing that has an ID of 19mm, so the OD of the bearing is approximately 19mm. The bearing is 6mm thick. The one from McMaster cost about $24. You might find them cheaper from other vendors but the one from McMaster is good because it's sealed and permanently lubricated, rated up to 24,000 RPM and can handle high static and dynamic loads. Once I had the new bearing in place, the shaft spun freely in my hand with no detectable resistance.

I did not replace the front bearing or remove the shaft from the brass housing. The front bearing rotated freely with no resistance so I felt it was ok to just clean away all the carbon gunk and pack a bunch of lubricant on it.

The wiring on my motor needed to be cleaned up as well. I showed some earlier pictures of the motor when I pulled it and one of the terminal wires was completely corroded away from the copper shunt wire on the carbon brush. So when I rebuilt the motor, I cleaned up all the wiring and then smeared everything with non-conductive dielectric grease to make sure the wiring would not corrode.
 
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One thing to mention is that it took a long time to shave the carbon brushes down to the right size so that they could freely traverse the opening in the seal plate. There’s a spring clip that applies pressure to the back of the brush so that it’s constantly being pushed into contact with the commutator. One way to check if the motor is working is to hook up a voltmeter to the leads and then spin the shaft. I used my cordless variable speed drill with a three jaw chuck to grab the top of the shaft and spin it while the voltmeter was attached to the shunt leads. At low speed the motor produced a couple of volts DC. Also, the resistance of the motor tested to be about 3 ohms. The resistance changes a bit when you rotate the shaft as different segments of the commutator come into contact with the brushes but 3 ohms is close enough to spec for these motors. Since the resistance checked out and the spinning motor produced a DC voltage, it was a good check to perform before closing it all up.
 
SAD UPDATE ....

thats all folks GIF


As the great Dr. McCoy once said ... "He's dead, Jim."

Decided to do a second run of the robot after the kids went swimming today and while the water pump motor spins up, the robot refuses to move. My guess is the drive motor is dead OR the control board may be fried where it powers the drive motor OR both .... I'll have to pull the motor assembly out again and see if there is anything obvious. The drive motor is not really repairable. Its also a brushed DC motor but the casing is completely sealed. I have seen these drive motors online but they typically run around $100 since they come with sealed gear box assembly and the teflon drive gear.

At this point, even if the fix is obvious, I really can't sink any more time and money into this endeavor.

My conclusion is this - 5 years ago I bought a "premium" robot at a very "premium" price and all I got was 5 seasons out of it. It was a very costly purchase and one that I really don't feel was worth the money. My recommendation to anyone is this - if you truly want one of these robots, buy the absolute cheapest model you can get (S-200 type robot or less) and be very careful about leaving them in the water all the time. Pull the motor assembly seasonally to make sure it is staying sealed up and dry and get as much life as you can out of it. If you make it past the 5 year mark and it dies, don't bother fixing it, just buy a new one.

BUT ... on to bigger and better endeavors!!!

Next Mission - add automation to the valve that controls my suction cleaner so I can turn it on and off using an AUX relay.

One of the downsides of my suction cleaner is that it isn't on an automated valve and you have to split the pump suction between the skimmer line and the suction cleaner line. That means running the pump at a higher speed to get enough flow to do both functions (skim and vacuum). However, if the suction line could be turned on and off using an automated valve and then scheduled with a feature that has higher speed, then the cleaner could be operated efficiently for a short period of time and the pump can run at a lower speed when the cleaner isn't needed. In this way, it would act similar to a pressure cleaner where you turn on a booster pump for a short time.

I have a spare actuator for the diverter valve that controls the split between skimmer and suction line. I just need a relay to control it and so I'll have to hack into my ET panel. Unfortunately, the above ground plumbing there is very tight (multiple pipes set closely to one another) and so I may have to do some plumbing work as well to make more room for the actuator ... stay tuned ....
 

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At least you got one last glorious run out of Mr. T! Remember the good times 🥲

This seriously sucks though. Every time I fix one problem on something I’m working on, something else goes wrong. It’s never ending!
 
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I suggest you consider this. $779, it is the same robot. I expect you can use you S300i power supply and have all features.

 
You should have gotten “RobotShield”; the extended warranty from the same people who are responsible for CarShield, the most despised I mean trusted aftermarket warranty company on the planet.

As you can see from the below reference, CarShield is a wonderful company and would never do anything to deny a legitimate claim.

1652634168821.png
Also available: ToasterShield, ShoeShield, BikeShield, LawnmowerShield, CatShield, DogShield, GoldfishShield and many others.

Call today to get the coverage and peace of mind that comes from having insurance on your vital possessions.
 
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SAD UPDATE ....

thats all folks GIF


As the great Dr. McCoy once said ... "He's dead, Jim."

Decided to do a second run of the robot after the kids went swimming today and while the water pump motor spins up, the robot refuses to move. My guess is the drive motor is dead OR the control board may be fried where it powers the drive motor OR both .... I'll have to pull the motor assembly out again and see if there is anything obvious. The drive motor is not really repairable. Its also a brushed DC motor but the casing is completely sealed. I have seen these drive motors online but they typically run around $100 since they come with sealed gear box assembly and the teflon drive gear.

At this point, even if the fix is obvious, I really can't sink any more time and money into this endeavor.

My conclusion is this - 5 years ago I bought a "premium" robot at a very "premium" price and all I got was 5 seasons out of it. It was a very costly purchase and one that I really don't feel was worth the money. My recommendation to anyone is this - if you truly want one of these robots, buy the absolute cheapest model you can get (S-200 type robot or less) and be very careful about leaving them in the water all the time. Pull the motor assembly seasonally to make sure it is staying sealed up and dry and get as much life as you can out of it. If you make it past the 5 year mark and it dies, don't bother fixing it, just buy a new one.

BUT ... on to bigger and better endeavors!!!

Next Mission - add automation to the valve that controls my suction cleaner so I can turn it on and off using an AUX relay.

One of the downsides of my suction cleaner is that it isn't on an automated valve and you have to split the pump suction between the skimmer line and the suction cleaner line. That means running the pump at a higher speed to get enough flow to do both functions (skim and vacuum). However, if the suction line could be turned on and off using an automated valve and then scheduled with a feature that has higher speed, then the cleaner could be operated efficiently for a short period of time and the pump can run at a lower speed when the cleaner isn't needed. In this way, it would act similar to a pressure cleaner where you turn on a booster pump for a short time.

I have a spare actuator for the diverter valve that controls the split between skimmer and suction line. I just need a relay to control it and so I'll have to hack into my ET panel. Unfortunately, the above ground plumbing there is very tight (multiple pipes set closely to one another) and so I may have to do some plumbing work as well to make more room for the actuator ... stay tuned ....
You would have been better served saving the money on trying this repair and putting it toward ScreenLogic. Then there would be no need to go outside in the heat of summer when you want to run the cleaner outside of scheduled times. :poke:
 
Matt,

I'm thinking about the choice to leave the robot in or take it out. Seems to me you have two possible root causes. One may have been failure of the motor brushes the other may have been seal failure and there could have been several places this could happen. If the real root cause was a seal failure seems like they often fail when pressure cycles. Leaving on the unit in and only removing for basket cleaning might actually have a longer lifespan. I'm curious what your thoughts are on what seal actually caused the demise and if the motor brushes failed about the same time or if they were the initial failure. I will be going the S200 route on my next pool and will still install the suction pipe fitting in case I have to go to a suction cleaner. A while back somebody asked a question about eliminating the suction fitting if he was going robot. I though it would be best to eliminate a penetration in the pool and a potential suction plumbing leak source. Your experience has completely changed my mind on that.

Once we get down the road on the pool I want to look at a home-made conversion for the robot to brush-less motor and pool water durable seals. This isn't rocket science when I compare to sealing technology we use in 15,000 psi well heads. Should be doable and may need a little bit of 3d printer adapter parts. Maybe even a more durable control board that's configurable for pool shapes and depths based on rPi or Arduino. I think this would be fun to work on. Right now I'm focused on getting trusses installed so this will have to wait...

Chris
 
At least you got one last glorious run out of Mr. T! Remember the good times 🥲

This seriously sucks though. Every time I fix one problem on something I’m working on, something else goes wrong. It’s never ending!

Yeah, I hear ya.

I think this may be a case of age-related cascading-failures. As the components wear out and age, the electronics will have some ability to compensate for power draw but eventually the motors start operating out of spec. This causes stress on the electronics which only exacerbates the problem. Eventually a motor gives out and the control board may not have the ability to deal with a surge or over-voltage and things just start to break. You replace one worn part, and then the worn out board can no longer deal with it.

I won't know what to think until I open it back up again, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more damage.
 
I suggest you consider this. $779, it is the same robot. I expect you can use you S300i power supply and have all features.


Thanks and I'll keep it in mind as a refurbished bot with a good warranty might be a better option than buying new. That said, my days with robot cleaners are over ... they are simply too costly in my opinion and there isn't a huge time savings for me in using one.
 
You should have gotten “RobotShield”; the extended warranty from the same people who are responsible for CarShield, the most despised I mean trusted aftermarket warranty company on the planet.

As you can see from the below reference, CarShield is a wonderful company and would never do anything to deny a legitimate claim.

View attachment 411014
Also available: ToasterShield, ShoeShield, BikeShield, LawnmowerShield, CatShield, DogShield, GoldfishShield and many others.

Call today to get the coverage and peace of mind that comes from having insurance on your vital possessions.
Elon and I are in enough trouble with the Feds ... I don't need the FTC breathing down my neck too ...
 
You would have been better served saving the money on trying this repair and putting it toward ScreenLogic. Then there would be no need to go outside in the heat of summer when you want to run the cleaner outside of scheduled times. :poke:

Gene, you forget, I have something BETTER than Scre(a)mLogic ... I have the old school, radio frequency (RF) 8-button EasyTouch remote!! 9 years and it has not failed ONE SINGLE TIME to connect with my ET panel outside on the far wall of the casita ... 100% Uptime for 9 years running with only 2 battery changes (6 AA batteries) ... I wonder, can you say the same about ScreenLogic :poke:

:p
 

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