Shock/Tingle getting into/out of pool

0.016 on left handrail

0.049 on right handrail

Bonding wire removed from pump motor
That is in ohms correct?

That would indicate that the railings are bonded.

So it must the water and it could mean a small leak somewhere or something in the water is at ground potential. I have seen this in other members pools that have experienced shocks.
 
That is in ohms correct?

Just did it again with my wife holding one end up against the rail and me measuring the other end and the existing bond wire- and got nothing with my meter- OL kept appearing. Kept doing it over and over. This means open loop. I don't think I can increase my range because it says "auto" on my meter.

So probably doing something wrong.
 
I would have expected some resistance because the railing may have some conductivity to ground and the bonding wire would as well but maybe not.

Is there any water around the railing like there would be when you get out of the pool? That may be necessary to provide the path to ground.

But anyway, it is not anywhere close to zero so I don't think they are bonded as we suspected.
 
60 Hz indicates that the voltage is probably from the power company as opposed to some other source like phone lines etc.

Check the voltage from hot to neutral on both sides of the incoming power.

A voltage imbalance can indicate a bad neutral.
 
While trying to loosen the rail, did you find & loosen and tap down the wedge bolt of the anchor - that releases it. Pictured below. They may have slopped some cement on top but it should be just below the surface under the escutcheon, found perhaps by chipping away concrete carefully to not go outside what the escutcheon covers. Plenty of other TFP threads on rail removal tactics. But I'm pessimistic about "observing" the anchor bod wire as those are usually lower and on the outside of the anchor, therefore deeper in the cement.

In testing of a new bond wire, maybe a large hose clamp to hold the temporary bond wire to the rail firmly?

Todays posts are greatly insightful I think, getting closer to solution - but OP seems a bit fuzzy on the differences between bond wire, neutral, and ECG (ground wire i.e. Equipment Grounding Conductor). I'll try to clarify, not sure I'll succeed :): In much earlier posts @Barry321 wrote that it was a double breaker feeding the pump circuit, so we might assume it's a 220V feed that brings in two hot wire lines and one ECG - therefore technically no neutral supplied from the panel to the pump. But as @mas985 correctly clarified, any NEV would travel through the power cos neutral to the panel and then continue on to the pump via the ECG because the ECG is tied to the power co neutral at the first breaker panel. Does that help?
If he connected it at the meter, it may have only tested from the power co to the house but there could still be an issue from the meter to the breaker box or bad connection in the breaker box.
Yes indeed, could still be a bad connection in either of those places, and for that matter anywhere in the path the ECG takes from the panel to the pump. It would not be the first time I found ugly splices with wire nuts on ECG wires or screwed to junction boxes along the way from the panel to the pump. I don't think we can assume it is a straight un-spliced run. Worst case the ECG could be shared with another circuit which of course is a code violation.

True that voltages should be very low between each of those measurement points (rail to water, etc) and also "even still more truer" that the critical thing is that they are the same - implying good bonding. In the Mike Holt video that I keep referencing, all test points measured 0.1v if I remember correctly.

And I too like the idea of cutting a line in the cement (along an expansion joint if possible) to run a new bond wire!

Anyone know the answer to this dumb question? What bonds the water? Is that essentially accomplished by the pool builder when they follow spec to join all concrete reinforcement to the bond wire feed (code says, I think I read, in at least four places). Which also bonds the deck outward a few feet around the pool. Obviously the ladder in the water adds some water bonding but just near the ladder, as would a metal light niche in just that area. Not sure why the coping measures differently - new mystery?

Anchors aweigh....

1720299436269.png
 
If you have a lot of current flowing through an area, you will always have a voltage between different parts due to voltage drop.

For example, if you measure between the house breaker load terminals and the pump line terminals, you will get the voltage drop even though the parts are directly bonded with copper wire.

0.0335 x 240 = 8 volts difference between bonded parts.

1720301645773.png
 
Anyone know the answer to this dumb question? What bonds the water? Is that essentially accomplished by the pool builder when they follow spec to join all concrete reinforcement to the bond wire feed (code says, I think I read, in at least four places). Which also bonds the deck outward a few feet around the pool. Obviously the ladder in the water adds some water bonding but just near the ladder, as would a metal light niche in just that area. Not sure why the coping measures differently - new mystery?
Usually it is a pool light or railing that dips in the water. But you can use a pipe bond as well.

1720301648878.png

The issue with the water is that it has internal resistance so if you bond at one location, it could potentially have a different voltage at another location if there is a path to ground such as a leak.
 
If you have a lot of current flowing through an area, you will always have a voltage between different parts due to voltage drop.

For example, if you measure between the house breaker load terminals and the pump line terminals, you will get the voltage drop even though the parts are directly bonded with copper wire.
Of course that's true! I suppose our specific use case is a bit more limited - about the bonding of anything within 5 feet of the pool, also to the pump & equipment, using nothing smaller than #8 bare copper (#6 in Canada) such that we nearly eliminate any potential difference between two things the swimmer can simultaneously touch. I say "nearly" because technically it's never totally eliminated, the point to which I think you allude.

Usually it is a pool light or railing that dips in the water. But you can use a pipe bond as well.
Thanks much, I didn't know of the pipe bond. Would that mean that a pool with no ladders, rails or lights should ideally have a pipe bond, or perhaps multiples of them? Sorry if that sounds too picky!
 

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The main problem is that we don't know the total amount of current flowing through the area.

A solid bonding grid should help as long as the voltage gradient and current flow are not too much.
 
The OP did a test back in post #6 where the main breakers in the house where shut off and the NEV remained which indicates that it is external to the house.

Thanks much, I didn't know of the pipe bond. Would that mean that a pool with no ladders, rails or lights should ideally have a pipe bond, or perhaps multiples of them? Sorry if that sounds too picky!
I believe the NEC requires 9 sq-in of bonding surface for pool water but there may be some exceptions to that:


1720370961869.png
 
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Update

I took a new bonding wire, ran it on top of the concrete pool deck (just sitting on top of the pool deck) and hooked it tight with a connector screw against my existing bonding wire where it comes out from under the concrete deck- and dropped the other end in the water near the stairs (near the handrails)

My voltage tester showed 0.011 volts from the water to the left handrail (It had been showing 4.7 volts or so).

I then measured the right handrail (6 feet or so away) and measured a little over 2 volts with one probe in the water and one probe against the handrail (was getting over 4 volts yesterday)

(The above was with the bonding wire unplugged from the pool pump)


Then, I hooked bonding wire back up to the pool pump and in the exact same setup - the left handrail read 0.021 volts and the right handrail read 5.1 volts.
 
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Just turned breaker off at house panel and took bonding wire to pool pump off the outer lug (no real change in measurements)

Then I took one of my loose bonding wires and wrapped it around the right handrail and strung it over to the left handrail and measured again with my multi-meter. (This was with the new bond wire still laying in pool water near my steps and ran over to the existing bond wire and secured as mentioned above)

Left handrail read 0.012 volts

Right handrail read 0.135 volts

One of the DA$N problems is that every time I take a measurement it's different. If the wind is blowing, it's different. If the dog barks, it's different. If I think of a peach cobbler while I take the measurements, it's different from the last time I took a measurement when I was thinking of a good hamburger. If I burp while taking a measurement, it's different from the last time.

Not even counting the 400 different ways to measure: Breakers off, breakers on, bonding wire hooked up, unhooked. Hooked with breaker on, with breaker off. Unhooked with breaker on, with it off. New bonding wire in the water, around handrail, pulled tight, not tight, etc.... and a hundred more combinations.

Meanwhile, my neighbor is jumping off his roof into his pool with a running hairdryer in one hand while swinging into the pool on a live extension cord with exposed wires - all while having a ball with no stray voltage issues to speak of
 
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Try this:

Put in a temporary bond directly to the railings and then with the bond connected to the house neutral/ground via the pump bonding lug, retest from the railings to the water.

That is the way it would operate if you put in a bond to the two railings.

Disconnecting the bond from the pump will always result in a low voltage measurement.
 
Also, are you sure that wire near the deck is actually connected to the bond wire near the pump? You can measure resistance between the two to make sure.
 
Also, are you sure that wire near the deck is actually connected to the bond wire near the pump? You can measure resistance between the two to make sure.

The new bond wire is run over to the edge of the concrete pool deck (it's just sitting on top of the concrete) to just where the existing bond wire comes out from under the deck- and I secured them together with a connector. It's another 20 feet or so to the pool pump.
 
I understand that but do you know for sure if the wire near the deck actually connects to the wire near the pump?
 
Try this:

Put in a temporary bond directly to the railings and then with the bond connected to the house neutral/ground via the pump bonding lug, retest from the railings to the water.

That is the way it would operate if you put in a bond to the two railings.

Disconnecting the bond from the pump will always result in a low voltage measurement.

Ok - breakers are off for pump.

Ran new bond wire around both handrails and over to pool pump. I secured the new bond wire to the existing bond wire then attached to pump. See picture.

Then I measured. I also added a cut off piece of bond wire and hung it down so it touched the water. See pics

IMG_1890.jpeg

Left hand rail - measurement 0.07
IMG_1888.jpeg

right hand rail - measurement 0.06
IMG_1889.jpeg
 
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