Shock/Tingle getting into/out of pool

Those all are pretty much what I expected.

The concrete and the metal coping are probably not bonded either.

One more if you can manage it. Can you bond both railings AND the ladder, then measure the voltage from the railings to the water but without putting a wire in the water.

This will tell me if the water remains bonded via the ladder or if there is still a leak which causes the water to go to ground potential.
 
One more if you can manage it. Can you bond both railings AND the ladder, then measure the voltage from the railings to the water but without putting a wire in the water.

This will tell me if the water remains bonded via the ladder or if there is still a leak which causes the water to go to ground potential.

I often wonder what my neighbors think: Hottest days of the year and instead of being in my pool, they see me out in the backyard stretching and pulling bare copper wire around all over the place evening after evening never really doing anything with it but pulling it around and wrapping it around things near the pool. They probably can't tell I am measuring anything but they have to wonder "What the heck is that guy doing with all that wire..... and why doesn't he ever swim. I guess he just likes playing with that wire"

Anyway

I wrapped the wire around both handrails and the ladder> it's a bit hard to see here but the wire is running over to the ladder too- 0.028 (it was fluctuating a bit but only slightly)

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and right handrail 0.041 (again fluctuating a bit but only slightly)
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I justy measured them again - about 30 mins after the measurement I did above

Both handrails to water (left and right) were right at 0.032 (with wire wrapped around both handrails and around the upper part of the ladder)

The metal coping between the handrails and the ladder measures about 0.450 up to 0.620 - - sometimes getting down to 0.270 or so- depending on the exact spot.
 
I think that confirms that pretty much nothing is bonded. I am not sure what that original bond wire was connected to. Maybe the light fixture but unsure at this point.

The good news is that I no longer think there is a water leak. Plus you now know what needs to be done to fix the problem.

You might try removing the railings again by rocking them back and forth just to see if they were once bonded.
 
Took coverplate off light junction box located behind my pool. I had unhooked everything a few months ago.
I can see the bare bond wire that ends here. Then the green ground wire, and white and black wire. No idea what the bond wire from the niche running to the rest of the bonding system looks like

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I think that confirms that pretty much nothing is bonded. I am not sure what that original bond wire was connected to. Maybe the light fixture but unsure at this point.

The good news is that I no longer think there is a water leak. Plus you now know what needs to be done to fix the problem.

I think at a minimum, I need to talk to the pool electrican that was out here last week putting in my new pump about cutting a trench of some kind in the pool deck and put in a new bonding wire and and any other cutting that needs to take place to make that work. (He mentioned he'd done that on another pool).

Of course I'd have to remove the railings, and ladder and put in a new light since the light needs to be replaced anyway.

I have to think that would be a few thousand at a minimum too. At least there would be no real expensive equipment to purchase
 
I think that confirms that pretty much nothing is bonded. I am not sure what that original bond wire was connected to. Maybe the light fixture but unsure at this point.

Is there any way possible that a poor bond from the light niche to the rest of the system (not to the junction box) could cause all this trouble? I can't see how that would impact the handrails on the other side.

I need a new light anyway- and I'd like to go with possibly a low voltage type system or at least no metal housing.
 
The railings and ladder need to be bonded and currently are not bonded.

Removing them can confirm if there ever was a bond that might be fixable.
 
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Is there any way possible that a poor bond from the light niche to the rest of the system (not to the junction box) could cause all this trouble? I can't see how that would impact the handrails on the other side.
Based on your test results, no, I don't think it could be ONLY an unbonded light. Unless I missed something, most of the problem went away when you added the ladder bond, which also bonded the water, or aided in bonding the water. But I do think it would be worthwhile to test the temporary bond wire attached ONLY to the ladder (and pump of course, but not attached to the rails), then retest all voltages especially water to rails. If the rails are bonded, the rail to water voltage would go back to near-zero with the new ladder bond in place. I trust you @mas985 but it did not track for me the conclusion that "nothing" is bonded, although that's still a possibility. I kinda still think it could have been just the ladder all along, or the ladder & the light niche, raising potential of the ladder, water, and niche together. Of course less work if you only had to add the ladder bond.

For the light, there are several tests that could still be done. In that light J-box you said the #8 bonding wire ends there, but was it connected using the wire nut to the two ground wires - one from the light and another from the transformer, or just laying inside the Jbox?
 
But I do think it would be worthwhile to test the temporary bond wire attached ONLY to the ladder (and pump of course, but not attached to the rails), then retest all voltages especially water to rails.
ok. I did test the ladder rail to water (not connected to handrails) and it was 0.0- See my post #140 - first picture with the temp bond wire only attached to the ladder rail (and pump and existing bond wire)

But I didn't then also test the handrails to the water (with the temp bond wire attached to the ladder).

I'll have to do that tomorrow as it's dark here now.
 

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"Nothing" was an exaggeration. Clearly the water is bonded in someway. Either the light or via pad equipment. Not the ladder though as testing confirmed that.

The bigger question is if the railings and ladder were ever bonded that just failed or never bonded in the first place.
 
For the light, there are several tests that could still be done. In that light J-box you said the #8 bonding wire ends there, but was it connected using the wire nut to the two ground wires - one from the light and another from the transformer, or just laying inside the Jbox?

I think the only wire hooked to the ground screw in the box was the green wire.

I do not remember if the bonding wire just ended by itself with the wire nut. I just can't recall what it looked like when I opened it up a few months ago.
 
"Nothing" was an exaggeration. Clearly the water is bonded in someway. Either the light or via pad equipment. Not the ladder though as testing confirmed that.

The bigger question is if the railings and ladder were ever bonded that just failed or never bonded in the first place.

I'm always confused. What showed you the ladder isn't bonded?
 
When the ladder wasn't connected to the bond wire and the other railings were, there was still voltage railing to water. Once the ladder was bonded, the voltage went away.
 
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When the ladder wasn't connected to the bond wire and the other railings were, there was still voltage railing to water. Once the ladder was bonded, the voltage went away.
Since the shocks felt last year were at the handrails, I assumed they were the main issue.

But yes- your description is what happened- when the ladder was bonded/included with the new wire, the voltage on the handrails dropped to a range of 0.028 to 0.041 or somewhere in that ballpark.

and when the new temp bond wire was around the handrails with a short bond wire dropped into the water and hanging on the temp bond wire, the voltage almost totally disappeared too.
 
I think the three of us are on the same page now - what a glorious day! You don't want to mess with electricity in the dark? LOL, just teasing. ... "Post #140" - more LOL - I never even realized they are numbered! .... Anyway, while we await the ladder-only test result (only the ladder bonded back to the pump, no wire laying in the pool), let me please make a slight modification to my answer about whether "the light could still be the entire issue". Same answer with regard to bonding, as I think we proved the ladder is not bonded, and possibly the rails too, the light still unsure. But early on we were also chasing the original source of the NEV, concluding at this time, I believe, to be the power company, and which is nearly unavoidable, variable, etc. So we appropriately switched to chasing the bonding issue which is far more important anyway. But it seems to me now that any power co NEV could be propagating through the ground wire to the light too, similar to the way it propagated to/through the pump. There are a few problems with how that light is wired, and I propose a couple ways to test.

The pictured junction box (post 145) is not listed for pool use, it's just a vanilla exterior wet location (metal) box. Most electricians interpret NEC 680 23 & 24 to require junction boxes that are listed for pool use, just like with transformers and other devices. Somehow the installer perhaps thought otherwise and the inspector missed it or interpreted code differently. Regardless of the box used, a wire nut to join the bonding wire with the other ground wires is not sufficient, they are to be tied on a small buss bar, and in the case of a metal box, the buss bar is to be integral to the box - all so that all those connections, including the box are secure. Samples pictured below. Next, when a #8 bonding wire travels through a conduit (with other wires) the #8 is to be insulated (green) - it appears they used the bare #8. I'm not sure how important all that is, but I mention it all because if testing shows the light is also not bonded, a new and proper box replacement could help solve the problem. On to tests of the light bonding....

I would test for light bonding by having all those J-box connections loose, disconnected, and measure resistance in ohms at two points. First, with a probe tied tightly to the loose Jbox bond wire, place other probe against light ring (or screw for the light ring - yes you're in the water) - it should be near zero ohms, and probably is. The more important test is to measure ohms from the loose #8 to a known bonded item such as at the pump (or to your temporary "array-o-bond"). With good probe connections this too should be near zero, anything more than an ohm or two probably means the niche itself was never tied in (ie bonded) underground. When making that test there may be another path, eg through the water but that path would be rather high resistance, perhaps between 20K-100Kohms or more and same conclusion that they did not bond the light or the bond deteriorated. Fortunately the remedy could be easy if you have the box replaced, as the lug on the bottom of the box could be used to run/bury it around the perimeter (and pick up the new ladder bond (and rail bonds if needed) along the way. You could also test that now by tying the loose #8 to your temporary bonding array, then retest for voltages. If you pick up one of those little buss bars it might make some of your test connections easier.

I don't have much insight about the coping, but in the Mike Holt video I know the deck and surrounds like that got variable results, changing also as they splashed some water onto the deck. I suppose it might be tempting, while cutting cement for a ladder and other bonds as needed, to tie in the coping somehow?

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Since the shocks felt last year were at the handrails, I assumed they were the main issue.
Indeed, you - and maybe all of us for a time - were misled by that. In your case the shock location need not be the same as the problem location.
 
Removed the new copper wire running on top of the deck from the ladder rail. Then measured the voltage back at the handrails to the water = 4.61 volts on both (slight fluctuation in that number)

Then immediately wrapped the bare copper wire around the ladder rail again and walked back over to the handrails

Then measured the handrails to water again - 0.031 volts on one and 0.032 on the other.


Seems clear the ladder isn't bonded. I guess I need to try to take the ladder up and see if I can see anything.
 
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Trying to dig up the ground behind the pool today and find the light niche to see if I can see the bond wire. It's 98 degrees here and my 53 year old self could pass out.

Also trying to get my pool ladder up. I've unscrewed the screws and beat them down 300 times each and no movement with the ladder. Watched multiple videos online on how to remove them - how to remove it easy- how to remove stubborn ones- how to remove impossible ones- none of the videos helped. All the people in the videos got theirs up much easier than mine. Concrete doesn't seem to be holding them in. But I've about bent my hammer pounding these "wedges" with no movement at all.

Told my wife it would have been easier had we had the pool builder just dump a 100 foot high pile of wood in the backyard instead of building this crappy pool and that would have been easier to deal with than the pool - and more fun.
 

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