Shock/Tingle getting into/out of pool

[Barry321]

Gave up trying to get the ladder out. Almost broke one of the anchor bolts when it bent pounding on it to get the Diamond Institute certified wedges to move. Then hurt my back trying to get the ladder to move.

yes, I sprayed PB blaster in the holes and let them sit for a few hours. did nothing.

probably will have to buy a hammer drill to drill out the entire anchor.

hard to believe with all the technology, someone would design something as awful as this design. Incredible.

 

[nuttyp]

I feel your pain. But the good news is that you've double confirmed the ladder is not bonded! On the other hand you must not have resonated with my post #156 because you did some other things instead . So - your post #150 said you were going to try the bonding array tied to the ladder only, disconnected from the rails but still tied to the pump/equipment pad, then re-testing voltages from the rails to water and that would tell us once and for all whether the rails are also unbonded. Maybe you did that and just didn't get a chance to write about it, or I missed that result.

I'm not sure why you're digging for another bonding wire to the niche. You won't find that - even if it's there it would be direct from the niche to the reinforcing frame and likely buried in concrete, completely inaccessible. You do have the niche bonding wire accessible in the J-box, and I suggested a couple resistance tests on that in order to verify whether or not it's bonded to the rest of the intact bonding - i.e. back to the pump/equipment pad. A lot easier than digging.

Pulling on the ladder is indeed a back breaker, I have no idea what's holding it, crusted into the anchor I guess. In past threads one person used a floor jack, perhaps raised on a solid platform of concrete blocks or some such so that the jack could exert pressure on "the loop". I guess I would do something similar with a bottle jack. If I only had a dollar for evey time my $10 bottle jack came in handy A pool pro who apparently owns one of those pricey coring apparatus rigs just cuts the ladder flush and cores out the entire anchor assembly. The coring rig also pricey to rent as I looked at $250 for the day at Home Sleepo. I used these for $40 with a hammer drill when coring just concrete, I imagine they would eat the brass/bronze anchor too (the bits are out of stock but there are similar offerings).

That's all I got - what did I miss? Good luck man!

 

[Barry321]

I feel your pain. But the good news is that you've double confirmed the ladder is not bonded! On the other hand you must not have resonated with my post #156 because you did some other things instead . So - your post #150 said you were going to try the bonding array tied to the ladder only, disconnected from the rails but still tied to the pump/equipment pad, then re-testing voltages from the rails to water and that would tell us once and for all whether the rails are also unbonded. Maybe you did that and just didn't get a chance to write about it, or I missed that result.

Just went out- wrapped new temp wire around ladder rail only (it's attached to outer lug on pump)

left hand rail to water - 0.024 volts right hand rail to water- 3.6 volts.


But I did this same thing yesterday- different results

measured the handrails to water again with bare wire wrapped around only the ladder rail while attached to pump - 0.031 volts on one and 0.032 on the other.

So quite a difference in the right handrail- about the same for the left one.

Makes no sense.

 

[Barry321]

I'm not sure why you're digging for another bonding wire to the niche. You won't find that - even if it's there it would be direct from the niche to the reinforcing frame and likely buried in concrete, completely inaccessible. You do have the niche bonding wire accessible in the J-box, and I suggested a couple resistance tests on that in order to verify whether or not it's bonded to the rest of the intact bonding - i.e. back to the pump/equipment pad. A lot easier than digging.

I was hoping to be able to see the one coming out of the niche somehow since the directions say the bonding wire is located "at rear of niche" (I know one end comes up to the junction box)

I don't think I can do the resistance tests. Obviously I am not smart enough to use the multi-meter effectively.

 

[nuttyp]

Just went out- wrapped new temp wire around ladder rail only (it's attached to outer lug on pump)

left hand rail to water - 0.024 volts

right hand rail to water- 3.6 volts.

Wow! If I'm tracking all of our work, that means the left rail is bonded, the right rail is not. And lets not be fooled by which one gave most tingles. For fun I might guess the bonded rail gave more tingles since the water and ladder were not bonded. If fixing that it would be tempting to add the new bond to both rails and ladder, given we don't know if the bonding was lost over time due to deterioration or by installation mishaps. I would be thinking of cutting the cement line as @mas985 suggested awhile back, then brazing the new bond wire onto the side/top of the anchors, same with both ladder anchors. Frankly I think that could be done without even removing the ladder, if brazing carefully. I'm just not certain if NEC 680 or other articles are good with brazed bonding conductors, but I would think brazing is better than any other method. And I did find this in an unrelated section of code: "4.9.13.2 The connections for 4.9.13.1 shall be made using listed clamps or listed bonding plates or by welding or brazing"

At this point the install seems to have gone awry in so many ways (rail, ladder, misused J-box, perhaps also niche and coping) that the best fix may be to add bonding to all of it - including the light niche using the new proper Jbox and running the #8 lug on the bottom of the new Jbox around to pick up all the rest of the new bonding. All could be done without removing ladders or rails or digging, "just" some concrete lines sawn, some brazing, a new J-box and much #8 wire. Perhaps @mas985 was closest to correct when he said "nothing is bonded" Problem solved?

 

[nuttyp]

I don't think I can do the resistance tests. Obviously I am not smart enough to use the multi-meter effectively.

You're smart enough! By the way when the meter reads 0L it's telling you "out of range" - when on the ohms scale it means no connection. This resistance video might help.

 

[Barry321]

I simply don't understand how the same test could show .032 volts one day, and 3.6 volts the next in the same exact situation with the bare wire.

I COULD ask the electrician who isntalled my pump to cut my concrete and bond the rails and ladder again somewhow and see what he thinks. I know he mentioned he had cut the concrete on another job for bonding. I assume he's done it more than once but that was just a recent one he mentioned. Honestly, I just don't have the extra money for that right now. That's why I am killing myself and going to have a heart attack or a mental break trying to do this myself. ( I was outside pulling that stinking wire all over the place this morning at 7:30 yelling - like really yelling loudly- curse words at it as I went along. Pretty rough way to start the day)

I don't see me being able to remove the ladder or hand rails without totally destroying them and part of the concrete. None of the online videos are helpful with removing them because even the "Solution to impossible ladder removal" is a joke compared to mine. It's like using a wet paper towel to lift up the vehicle to change the tire.

I'm also upset that I used a 30-35 year pool builder who used a known electrical contractor in our area and they installed the completely wrong juction box. Worse, I've had 2 other electricans and another local pool company look at that junction box (like take off the coverplate and look inside) and not say a word about.

This industry truly is as shady as they come.

Sorry to complain- this is the most difficult house related issue I've ever dealt with- by FAR. I've got 3 children and this right now is the 2nd full summer they haven't stepped in the pool + 1/2 of the 2022 summer. When people ask me about putting in a pool, I tell them to sit down and then I talk them out of it. I've now talked 4 families out of doing it and I'm proud of that.

 

[Barry321]

Just went out- wrapped new temp wire around ladder rail only (it's attached to outer lug on pump)

left hand rail to water - 0.024 volts right hand rail to water- 3.6 volts.

Just checked again at 11:25 am eastern time. (Time before was about 8:45am this morning)

Left hand rail to water - 0.071 volts

right to water - 5.4 volts.

This is with the temp bare copper wire wrapped around ladder and not touching the handrails. (when they are wrapped around the handrails, the voltage drops to the range of 0.024 - 0.071.

 

[nuttyp]

I simply don't understand how the same test could show .032 volts one day, and 3.6 volts the next in the same exact situation with the bare wire

I've tried to read and follow the thread carefully and I do not think you ever tested in that exact scenario before, which is why I and @mas985 were suggesting it. In other words that was the first time you bonded only the ladder. Your results last night and today are consistently proving the ladder and righthand rail are not bonded. The variation of 5.4 volts today versus 3.6 last night are also consistent - as we've said the NEV varies up and down all day based on neighborhood loads and other factors. When it's all bonded, the exact NEV value simply doesn't matter.

If it were mine and I didn't have the funds to deploy the final fixes, I would flatten that "temporary" bonding array around the perimeter so it's not a trip hazard, fasten solidly clamped pieces of it to each rail with 3" hose clamps, then test every point to point voltage to prove it safe, and call it swimmable. But I cannot really recommend that because I'm not in control of how you do it and how you test.

The J-box is not that big of a deal, maybe others have seen it done as your builder did, I don't know. I pointed it out mostly because the proper box allows you an easy way to add in a niche bond.

Can't do much about your frustration - take a deep breath and maybe take a break from it all. In Christmas Vacation Clark Griswold (played by Chevy Chase) was a lot more angry than you are and he hadn't even bought the pool yet! My dogs are good at accepting what is, they teach me well. I suppose TFP exists in large part because of common misconceptions and resultant frustrations when it comes to maintaining pools. So, many of us choose to help our fellow swimmers. Or we try.

 

[Barry321]

If it were mine and I didn't have the funds to deploy the final fixes, I would flatten that "temporary" bonding array around the perimeter so it's not a trip hazard, fasten solidly clamped pieces of it to each rail with 3" hose clamps, then test every point to point voltage to prove it safe, and call it swimmable. But I cannot really recommend that because I'm not in control of how you do it and how you test.

I might do just this- retest it several times to make I'm getting the very low, consistent voltages and go for it - and retest it every time before swimming just to verify no changes. Heck, I was swimming in it before and never really had an issue myself until my little nephew noticed something when he touched the rails.

I've covered the rails with a vinyl, zipper type handrail cover so anyone touching them isn't touching the metal anyway.

How about running some of it near the handrail area through those cable protectors (retesting the voltages of course after running it through there)

 

[Barry321]

I've made the temporary connections to the ladder and the handrails with one new temporary bare copper wire running to the pump. (in an effort to be able to get in the pool without having a contractor come in and cut the concrete - which will cost $$$$$$ and might take some serious time since those folks are pretty busy in the middle of the summer).

Testing seems good- in the range of 0.041 at both handrails.

I did splash some water onto the concrete deck near the handrails and got a little over 1 volt from the water to the wet concrete deck.

Is this because the bare copper wire is running (sitting on) on top of the concrete deck instead of under it?

also - I did find a picture from 2017 - not a great one- where I took a picture of the pool installation and a bare copper wire can be seen before the concrete was poured and it's connected to the handrails running over to the ladder (the handrails are simply laying on the ground prior to install). I can't see much else because I was just snapping random pictures- not trying to take a picture of the b onding.

 

[mas985]

I've made the temporary connections to the ladder and the handrails with one new temporary bare copper wire running to the pump. (in an effort to be able to get in the pool without having a contractor come in and cut the concrete - which will cost $$$$$$ and might take some serious time since those folks are pretty busy in the middle of the summer).

Testing seems good- in the range of 0.041 at both handrails.

I did splash some water onto the concrete deck near the handrails and got a little over 1 volt from the water to the wet concrete deck.

Is this because the bare copper wire is running (sitting on) on top of the concrete deck instead of under it?

It is probably because the concrete is not bonded but it does conduct electricity straight to ground. Unfortunately, the only solution for that is a new deck properly bonded.

also - I did find a picture from 2017 - not a great one- where I took a picture of the pool installation and a bare copper wire can be seen before the concrete was poured and it's connected to the handrails (the handrails are simply laying on the ground prior to install)

They must have some corrosion or the attachment points have broken.

Did you also see if it was bonded to the rebar in the concrete?

Can you post the picture?

 

[Barry321]

It is probably because the concrete is not bonded but it does conduct electricity straight to ground. Unfortunately, the only solution for that is a new deck properly bonded.

So unlikely to cause a problem walking on the concrete with it wet? I don't think anyone in my pool has ever said they felt a shock except when touching the handrail or maybe touching the coping a few times with broken skin.

They must have some corrosion or the attachment points have broken.

Did you also see if it was bonded to the rebar in the concrete?

Can you post the picture?

I can' tell from the picture. I will post it this evening.

 

[mas985]

So unlikely to cause a problem walking on the concrete with it wet? I don't think anyone in my pool has ever said they felt a shock except when touching the handrail or maybe touching the coping a few times with broken skin.

Correct.

 

[Barry321]

 

[mas985]

Just curious, where in this picture is the exposed wire that you were connecting to in previous posts?

 

[Barry321]

It would be on the far left of the picture- about where it cuts off at- and it would run off to the left - but you can't really see it here and I don't have a better picture of it. The concrete deck there is about 3 foot wide in that spot.

A little past that black hose on the left.

I really wish I had a picture that showed the entire left side better. But I was just out there some 7 years ago just snapping random pictures for no real reason so I didn't get it.

 

[nuttyp]

Great that you had that picture of the build!

It’s interesting since we know one of the handrails is bonded, so I guess at least part of the pictured wire must have made it over to the equipment area/pump. Indeed could be corrosion, broken attachement or one or more wires fell off when they were setting the anchors, other mishaps perhaps. When I recently installed anchors it perplexed me that the screws to hold the #8 wire were barely sufficient to secure the wire. One phillips head screw and tough to torque it down. Next time I would consider brazing it or investigate further.

If you were around at the time, did you see anything like the enclosed pictures of deck bonding? Probably not. These just a sample from a web search “pool bonding construction pictures”. And perhaps no evidence of attachment to coping either. One of the pictures is from a deck “renovation” wherein they apparently tore out a few feet of concrete to add the bonding. I have no opinion about what it would take for enough potential to develop between the (newly) bonded pool water/rails and the deck to make it a problem. But…

Here’s some input that may be interesting. Toward the end of Mike Holt’s Testing Video they deliberately set the pool at 120 volts and he started stepping away from the bonded deck area (now at 120V with respect to earth/neutral), stepping beyond a few feet to the unbonded area where potential difference developed and tingles started. A definite 'don’t try this at home’ item, still interesting. It gets fun beyond the 1 hour mark - 1:41:40 and earlier.

 

[Barry321]

I seem to remember some type of grid looking thing for the concrete but I wouldn't put money on it. I've thought about it so much I can't be sure of what I invented in my mind.

In the picture I posted above, on the right side, it looks like the bonding wire runs over to the coping before it goes to the ladder.

 

[mas985]

From the picture, it looks like all the railings/ladder are bonded to the same wire. It is highly unlikely they all would lose their bond at the local bonding points. It is much more likely that the wire that goes off to the lower left does not make it back to the pump bond. That is were I would focus your effort. Perhaps it has something to do with the light j-box?

I believe you tried to measure resistance from that wire back to the railing but it sounded like you were not convinced that you did it right. When you put the meter in ohms mode, touch the leads together and make sure it reads 0 ohms. This will tell you the meter is setup properly. There is usually a 0-adj on the meter as well.

I would also test the railing to railing resistance just to see if they are connected.