Serious help needed

[richardc]

I read a few articles on air leaks, and also watched a a few youtubes on the subject. First, I see no air bubbles in the pump filter basket when the machine is running. I don't hear any hissing around the system, either. However, from time to time, and usually after a start up, my return lines will temporarily hesitate, obviously clearing airgaps in the line. Once they are cleared that issue ceases.

A youtube guy used smoke to detect a leak at connections. Obviously, that can only work if there is no wind in the area. Car tire repairers use soapy water to detect airleaks, looking for bubbles. I will try the latter.

If somebody could explain to me the dynamics of priming and water recovery, I might be able to figure this out. What causes the difficulty? Is it water in the return lines up to the skimmer and main drain valves that runs back to the pool, or water in the filter and the pump that drains back to the pool? Assuming a check valve were placed before the pump and after the skimmer lines what function would holding the water in the pump play?

Most importantly, what function does the air relief valve on the filter play in priming? Pentair says to open the valve, and wait for water to shoot out. But where is this water coming from because I have seen water expelled before the pump priming is complete. Is this water in the filter sitting in the bottom that has to work its way up for priming to occur?

Thank you for explaining this.

 

[richardc]

Suction side air leaks are when air is sucked into the plumbing, usually at a joint between two pipes. Water may drain back down into the pool when the pump is off, since the plumbing is not air tight. Much like when you suck up a little liquid into a straw and put your finger over the top. The liquid stays in the straw due to the vacuum the suction created. Let a little air in by moving your finger and you break the suction, and the water drops out of the straw. 99% of air leaks will be in the above ground portion of the plumbing, between the skimmers and the pump.

The best solution may be for your pool guy to investigate and figure out why the pump is not keeping prime, since he can be there to look at it and test all the pipes for air leaks.

Did the pump have difficulty priming before the old filter broke?

So you are saying that if air were not entering the system on the suction side, then once the pump were turned off, water would remain in the line and not fall back, equivalent to liquid in a straw that is "sucked up", and held with a finger over the straw. In other words a vacuum is created holding the water in place? If that is what you are saying, then by definition a pump should work very quickly and require little or no priming? Water would be held in the lines and prior to the pump, but there would not necessarily be water in the pump basket since it was turned off. Also, what happens when you take the pump basket off to add water and you have added air to the system?

If air is the culprit I would think that some sort of a "bleeder" valve on the suction side before the pump would work or be of help to escape the air, similar to what the filter air valve is designed to do?


Thank you for taking the time to explain this. It is much appreciated.

 

[chawkins99]

My pump and filter are uphill from the pool about 20 degrees and about 20 yards from the pool itself.

According to my trigonometry calculations, this would put your equipment pad around 20ft (two storeys) higher than the pool. That's a LOT of head to overcome.

So you are saying that if air were not entering the system on the suction side, then once the pump were turned off, water would remain in the line and not fall back, equivalent to liquid in a straw that is "sucked up", and held with a finger over the straw. In other words a vacuum is created holding the water in place? If that is what you are saying, then by definition a pump should work very quickly and require little or no priming? Water would be held in the lines and prior to the pump, but there would not necessarily be water in the pump basket since it was turned off. Also, what happens when you take the pump basket off to add water and you have added air to the system?

If air is the culprit I would think that some sort of a "bleeder" valve on the suction side before the pump would work or be of help to escape the air, similar to what the filter air valve is designed to do?


Thank you for taking the time to explain this. It is much appreciated.

When you turn off your pump, ANY air leak in the system is going to cause the water to return to the pool under gravity. When you turn the pump back on again, it has to suck that water back up again (20 ft) before the pump will prime. A check valve would prevent the water draining back.

If your numbers are accurate, I'm surprised you can get it to prime at all.

ETA: A bleeder valve before the pump will only serve to allow air back in and so allow the water to drain back down to the pool. The only purpose of a bleed valve is to allow air to be forced out by the positive pressure of water BEHIND it. In your case, you have negative pressure (vacuum) which will just allow more air in.

 

[richardc]

According to my trigonometry calculations, this would put your equipment pad around 20ft (two storeys) higher than the pool. That's a LOT of head to overcome.



When you turn off your pump, ANY air leak in the system is going to cause the water to return to the pool under gravity. When you turn the pump back on again, it has to suck that water back up again (20 ft) before the pump will prime. A check valve would prevent the water draining back.

If your numbers are accurate, I'm surprised you can get it to prime at all.

ETA: A bleeder valve before the pump will only serve to allow air back in and so allow the water to drain back down to the pool. The only purpose of a bleed valve is to allow air to be forced out by the positive pressure of water BEHIND it. In your case, you have negative pressure (vacuum) which will just allow more air in.

I may have given you a bad estimate on the height difference from the pool to the pump. It can't be more than 2-5 feet or so.It's tough to estimate but it's probaly a longer distance away than up.

It will eventually prime but it takes time. My pool guy suggested a check valve between the pump and filter and never mentioned the possibility of an air leak. I don't see any air bubbles anywhere especially in the pump basket. Some people on this board have suggested a check valve be placed between the pump and the skimmer valves, but my pool guy said that would prevent winterizing the lines blocking air from being blown down the lines.

 

[chawkins99]

I may have given you a bad estimate on the height difference from the pool to the pump. It can't be more than 2-5 feet or so.It's tough to estimate but it's probaly a longer distance away than up.

I guessed that was the case. 20ft is pretty extreme.

But even a 5 ft difference means that any air leak at the pump or filter would result in a loss of prime. Could be a bad PVC joint or a worn seal in the pump basket.

Putting the check valve after the pump means every time you remove the lid of the basket, you lose prime and the pump has to overcome that 5ft distance again. Putting it before the pump prevents it draining back.

If when you turn off the pump, water drains from the pump, then air is getting in somewhere.

 

[richardc]

I guessed that was the case. 20ft is pretty extreme.

But even a 5 ft difference means that any air leak at the pump or filter would result in a loss of prime. Could be a bad PVC joint or a worn seal in the pump basket.

Putting the check valve after the pump means every time you remove the lid of the basket, you lose prime and the pump has to overcome that 5ft distance again. Putting it before the pump prevents it draining back.

If when you turn off the pump, water drains from the pump, then air is getting in somewhere.

The problem is winterization. One would have to remove the check valve and install a fitting so the lines could be blown out at pool closing time. That sounds like a big hassel, unless a check valve existed that would enable the valve itself to be removed and reinstalled easily without disturbing the fitting itself? In other words being, able say to, unscrew the valve, and remove it for the winter without having to touch the check valve fitting. That way the lines can be blown out without the valve interfering with the blow out process?

 

[kcindc]

I have a couple of check values and the pool companies that have closed my pool have never complained about them being a hassle when they blow out the lines. A couple of seconds using a powered screw driver and the cover/flapper is removed allowing the lines to be blown out.

 

[richardc]

I have a couple of check values and the pool companies that have closed my pool have never complained about them being a hassle when they blow out the lines. A couple of seconds using a powered screw driver and the cover/flapper is removed allowing the lines to be blown out.

Could you please explain your system? What do you actually remove? Does your flapper unscrew? What brand and model is it. Thank you

 

[kcindc]

I have a few of these: Check | Jandy Pro Series

The clear plastic part can be unscrewed. Pretty simple really.

 

[Pool Amateur]

Just another thought that I think was mentioned earlier, is that if you put the check valve in just before the pump where it makes the most sense but the air leak is at one of your 3 valves (SS, DS, M) it will still loose prime. So I would try and check them out 1st.

 

[richardc]

I have a few of these: Check | Jandy Pro Series

The clear plastic part can be unscrewed. Pretty simple really.

Where in your line do you have them installed? So you unscrew them and remove the valve for blowing out the lines? Do you replace the flapper right away or leave it out over the winter? Thank you

 

[kcindc]

I have one before my pump and one next to my heater. They did nothing to keep me from loosing prime when I had leaks. My point is that check valves don't make closing the pool anymore difficult to close a pool.

They probably won't solve your issue of loosing prime because they didn't keep my pump from losing prime.

I suggest you find the leak(s). Look for water drips after the pump.

 

[richardc]

I have one before my pump and one next to my heater. They did nothing to keep me from loosing prime when I had leaks. My point is that check valves don't make closing the pool anymore difficult to close a pool.

They probably won't solve your issue of loosing prime because they didn't keep my pump from losing prime.

I suggest you find the leak(s). Look for water drips after the pump.

I have no water leaks anywhere that I can see. I did however, I believe locate a leak by dropping soapy water on the joints. In addition, one of the posters on this board suggested using a sopping wet towel to locate leaks. His technique involved wrapping the joint with the wet towel which would temporarily seal the leak. while looking at air bubbleis n the pump cannister one notices a decrease in the bubbles when a leak is covered. Ingenious. It looks like my shallow skimmer valve is leaking. I need to repeat the findings in order to conclude that I located the leak.

I like your valve. I spoke with Zodiac who owns Jandy and they indicated that the clear cover is fastened to the flapper, and that once unscrewed the assembly comes out.In addition, they make a 90 degree in the unit which should work perfectly for my setup. He indicated that the flapper placement is adjustable by moving the cover and screwing into alternate holes.

When you winterize, do you blow air through the check valve opening or do you go through the pump? IF yopu go through the pump do you cover the check valve opening?

 

[richardc]

Photo shows my 3 valves.

 

[richardc]

I may have an air leak in my shallow skimmer valve or union. Can a repair be had short of replacement? If the valve must be replaced can just one valve be replaced or must all 3 be changed?

 

[richardc]

I am still vacuuming each day, however, the settled dirt is a bit less each day. I am also still slaming but will not do an overnight test until all dirt is gone. There is also some discoloration throughout the bottom and sides of the liner. They do not look like stains as much as something that may scrubbing/cleaning ? Suggestions?

 

[chawkins99]

I may have an air leak in my shallow skimmer valve or union. Can a repair be had short of replacement? If the valve must be replaced can just one valve be replaced or must all 3 be changed?

You don't have much to work with there. I don't see how you could replace one valve without dismantling the whole manifold. If you have to do that, I would use the opportunity to replace all 3 valves.

I would also consider going to 2-inch pipe into the pump. Use 2 inch tees on top of each line. That should give you better suction when it's trying to prime (assuming your pump has a 2-inch inlet).

 

[kcindc]

I am still vacuuming each day, however, the settled dirt is a bit less each day. I am also still slaming but will not do an overnight test until all dirt is gone. There is also some discoloration throughout the bottom and sides of the liner. They do not look like stains as much as something that may scrubbing/cleaning ? Suggestions?

Are you brushing the entire pool everyday? Algae forms a biofilm and brushing removes the biofilm so the fc can kill the algae. I know at one point you were not told to brush because it would disturb the water too much while you were waiting for the sediment to drop to the floor, but it appears you are beyond the waiting for sediment to settle stage.

 

[richardc]

Are you brushing the entire pool everyday? Algae forms a biofilm and brushing removes the biofilm so the fc can kill the algae. I know at one point you were not told to brush because it would disturb the water too much while you were waiting for the sediment to drop to the floor, but it appears you are beyond the waiting for sediment to settle stage.

I have brushed once in a while. I don't see anything that looks like a slimy scum. I did have some of that a while ago that I got rid of. So what is the proper procedure for brushing? Should all sides be brushed, and the the floor ?

 

[JoeSelf]

Yes, the whole pool needs to be brushed weekly.

ADDED THIS --> SLAM needs to be brushed as much as possible. Daily at least.