Rough Plumbing help!!

[ConcreteChris]

Hello All! I have visited many times in the past months while deciding I was going to install my own gunite pool.. I am a concrete contractor so many factors of this job are a comfort level for my crew and I. I have a subcontractor shooting the Gunite.. We're all formed and ready for plumbing.. The gentleman I was expecting to get my plumbing plans from seems to have fallen through and I'm desperate for help!!!
I have studied and studied online as many things as I can for my plumbing to just get the rough in to move forward and have rebar and gunite shot asap and begin putting my yard back together... But I need help I'm nervous of doing the layout right, can any one help please!!! I only need to know location for everything I do plan on running all piping under middle of pool and out the end of shallow.. Any help or advice is very appreciated... If included a couple hand drawings

 

[mas985]

Welcome to the forum!

First, I would avoid running plumbing under the pool if possible. Should anything happen to the plumbing, you won't have any access.

1) I would avoid a main drain. They don't do much and more of a liability.

2) Are you planning any high GPM water features? If not, 2.5" plumbing on the skimmer and 2" on the returns are sufficient.

3) For return placement, over the steps and shelves is useful for keeping things clean and maybe a couple more in between.

Not sure what else you were looking for.

 

[ConcreteChris]

Welcome to the forum!

First, I would avoid running plumbing under the pool if possible. Should anything happen to the plumbing, you won't have any access.

1) I would avoid a main drain. They don't do much and more of a liability.

2) Are you planning any high GPM water features? If not, 2.5" plumbing on the skimmer and 2" on the returns are sufficient.

3) For return placement, over the steps and shelves is useful for keeping things clean and maybe a couple more in between.

Not sure what else you were looking for.

So I was going to do a small waterfall, not sure if it's considered a gpm feature but.. I was assuming it was just a return split into 2 or 3 1/2" tubes
Also I notice alot of people with many returns coming up from the bottom, is that heated water?... And details on piping for shelves.. I have one bench that's under the waterfall so assuming I don't need one there but I have a small sun bench.. I guess I could go on and on with questions... This is the ONLY part I have little insight on

 

[mas985]

You need to determine the size of the waterfall because that could have a major impact on plumbing. 1/2" is probably way too small for any size water fall unless it is only a foot wide. Generally they require about 5 GPM per foot (width).

 

[guinness]

Questions I would ask is what automatic pool cleaner will you use, how many returns you'll have and if a single skimmer is sufficient. I assume you've planned for pool lighting?

 

[HermanTX]

You also want to have independent returns for each skimmer. This provides more control once the pool is up and running. If you have a main drain then that is also independent run back to the equipment pad as well.

 

[spd500]

1) I would avoid a main drain. They don't do much and more of a liability.

Why would you not want a main drain? I would think it could be important for a few reasons like if you need to drain water below the level the skimmers drain to, or for full turnover when heating the pool.

 

[mas985]

Both of those things can be accomplished more effectively using other techniques. Deep water heating is much more effective when using returns instead of suction ports. Draining a pool really shouldn't be done with the pool pump. A sump is a better tool to use. Plus, I have seen way too many MD problems on the forum that cannot be fixed since the plumbing is under the pool. And finally, there is this:

http://www.poolinspections.com/manuals/drains/pools-without-drains.pdf

 

[HermanTX]

Both of those things can be accomplished more effectively using other techniques. Deep water heating is much more effective when using returns instead of suction ports. Draining a pool really shouldn't be done with the pool pump. A sump is a better tool to use. Plus, I have seen way too many MD problems on the forum that cannot be fixed since the plumbing is under the pool. And finally, there is this:

http://www.poolinspections.com/manuals/drains/pools-without-drains.pdf

In reading the article which by the way is very informative, it states a recommendation to turn a bottom drain into a return, i.e. replumb so it on the output of a pump not on the inlet side. Has anyone every done this in a swimming pool and if so, what has been the results or lessons learned?

 

[spd500]

So, by sump are you referring to a submersible pump? I'm imagining a submersible pump and dragging out hoses to run to the street or wherever, is that correct? Seems like alot of hassle

 

[mknauss]

So, by sump are you referring to a submersible pump?

Correct. I have one. I prefer to not use a $1000 pump during an operation that you can lose prime. And burn up the pump. I have an $80 sump pump that does that function.

 

[spd500]

I'm lazy and we get tropical storms and hurricanes, I really prefer to just use the built in plumbing when possible.

 

[Dirk]

I had main drains but had them sealed up and plastered over during a remodel. Bye, bye! Safer, more attractive, no brushing/vacuuming interference, no toe-stubbing, etc.

Sucking water through a port is no where near as effective as pushing water out of one, when it comes to circulation.

There are engineers that specialize in pool plumbing design, that know how to figure out where to put returns, how many, how many skimmers, where to put them, etc. Plus how to calc for water features, etc. You can wing it, and maybe it'll be OK. But a poor plumbing design can lead to all sorts of issues: bad circulation, algae issues, hot/cold spots, cleaning issues, etc. Might be worth a few bills to get it done right.

Someone mentioned lighting. Check. At least one skimmer needs to be placed where it will be most effective at snagging surface debris. Prevailing winds have as much to do with that as does pool circulation. Have you considered an auto-leveling system (both filling and draining)? I love having a drainless pool, and with my leveler I never have to think about my pool's water level. Now if only my skimmer had been put in a better spot...

 

[zea3]

I'm lazy and we get tropical storms and hurricanes, I really prefer to just use the built in plumbing when possible.

We also have gumbo clay soil that can bust up pipe like nobody's business! These days main drains don't provide much of an advantage. Usually they are plumbed to a skimmer line to decrease entrapment risk. They generally don't move a lot of water fast and they clog very easily if leaves and debris get past the cover.

 

[spd500]

We also have gumbo clay soil that can bust up pipe like nobody's business! These days main drains don't provide much of an advantage. Usually they are plumbed to a skimmer line to decrease entrapment risk. They generally don't move a lot of water fast and they clog very easily if leaves and debris get past the cover.

So is there a happy alternative? Like suppose I come home from vacation to a swamp instead of a pool and want to drain half or more of the pool without dragging out a bunch of hoses and extra stuff, what other option besides a main drain do I have?

 

[zea3]

So I was going to do a small waterfall, not sure if it's considered a gpm feature but.. I was assuming it was just a return split into 2 or 3 1/2" tubes
Also I notice alot of people with many returns coming up from the bottom, is that heated water?... And details on piping for shelves.. I have one bench that's under the waterfall so assuming I don't need one there but I have a small sun bench.. I guess I could go on and on with questions... This is the ONLY part I have little insight on

You may be seeing an in-floor cleaning system, which is not a great idea. Benches and tanning shelves may have bubblers in them, but they are not really returns per say. If you want bubblers then they need certain plumbing requirements. I would look for another experienced pool plumber to design the plumbing layout based on your wants, or do a lot more research until you feel confident your plumbing plan can do what you want it to do. Plumbing do-overs are expensive.

 

[zea3]

So is there a happy alternative? Like suppose I come home from vacation to a swamp instead of a pool and want to drain half or more of the pool without dragging out a bunch of hoses and extra stuff, what other option besides a main drain do I have?

I have used my pump and manual vacuum to drain the pool before. I inserted the vacuum hose directly into the pipe opening in the skimmer using a silicon cuff to make a tight seal, dropped the vacuum head in the pool and set the filter to waste. I just directed the waste hose where I wanted the water to go, and kept an eye on the water level.

 

[ConcreteChris]

You also want to have independent returns for each skimmer. This provides more control once the pool is up and running. If you have a main drain then that is also independent run back to the equipment pad as well.

These are definitely a few things I do know luckily.. Things I'm not sure of are.. Bubblers on sun bench.. -* what size pipe should I use.. It's only a 5x8 bench*

Why would you not want a main drain? I would think it could be important for a few reasons like if you need to drain water below the level the skimmers drain to, or for full turnover when heating the pool.

I will be heating the pool

 

[ConcreteChris]

I had main drains but had them sealed up and plastered over during a remodel. Bye, bye! Safer, more attractive, no brushing/vacuuming interference, no toe-stubbing, etc.

Sucking water through a port is no where near as effective as pushing water out of one, when it comes to circulation.

There are engineers that specialize in pool plumbing design, that know how to figure out where to put returns, how many, how many skimmers, where to put them, etc. Plus how to calc for water features, etc. You can wing it, and maybe it'll be OK. But a poor plumbing design can lead to all sorts of issues: bad circulation, algae issues, hot/cold spots, cleaning issues, etc. Might be worth a few bills to get it done right.

Someone mentioned lighting. Check. At least one skimmer needs to be placed where it will be most effective at snagging surface debris. Prevailing winds have as much to do with that as does pool circulation. Have you considered an auto-leveling system (both filling and draining)? I love having a drainless pool, and with my leveler I never have to think about my pool's water level. Now if only my skimmer had been put in a better spot...

So Yes I would love to pay for some plans on the fly I obviously realize this is the most important part !!! The pool is dug and formed, the yard is a mess, rebar is sitting waiting and the engineer that was scheduled to do them last month is claiming to have problems Inhouse and can't get it done on the agreed schedule... I'm trying to keep the project moving forward to maintain our gunite date first week of September... If your offering or have a suggestion to contact I'm anything but cheap on important things

 

[Dirk]

Sorry, no, I'm on the opposite side of the country from ya, and pardon, yes, you did mention you were going to have someone do that, but they flaked. I get that you don't want to wait, but what is worse: prolonging a dug up yard, or digging it up a second time to redo plumbing? Do you really have a choice? You'll get some good suggestions from here, for sure, from folks that may or may not know all that much about designing an entire system (I'm in the latter camp). But we haven't been to your yard, might not know your location at all, your soils, your wind patterns, or anything else we don't even know we don't know. We're great at looking at a set of plans and making suggestions on what we know works or doesn't. (I think it's fair to say I'm not just speaking for myself here.) And we do have builders here who are probably more than capable of designing a plumbing plan. To them I'd ask: would you be willing to put your name on a plumbing plan if you've never been on site?

Just playin' devil's advocate with you. I hope you can find what you're looking for here, I really do. I just know I wouldn't be looking to an internet site for a comprehensive set of plans if I was building a pool... Just one guy's opinion, is all. I'm sure others here won't agree.