Replastered in April......test results from the past 3 months..what are my concerns?

[4x4tx]

Ok I am a little confused. I thought it was said in my other thread that this wasnt chemical related and even so there hasnt been enough time to see scale? It has never been excessively high over any period of time.

I can and will adjust to get the CSI down......but it has been negative here and there....I dont want him using this as an out if the plaster job is the real issue.

Where is it posted anywhere to run with a PH of 6.8-7.2? That is what he is telling me for quartzscapes plaster....that its the standard and mentioned nothing about csi.

 

[ajw22]

Ok I am a little confused. I thought it was said in my other thread that this wasnt chemical related and even so there hasnt been enough time to see scale? It has never been excessively high over any period of time.

That is why we ask you not to start separate threads. Folks looking at this thread have no idea what was perviously discussed. So we start new.

I can and will adjust to get the CSI down......but it has been negative here and there....I don't want him using this as an out if the plaster job is the real issue.

What he uses as an out is a totally different issue having nothing to do with science. I can only comment on what I see in your PoolMath logs. Scale shouldn't form in 4 months but it doesn't sound like it is calcium nodules growing.

Where is it posted anywhere to run with a PH of 6.8-7.2? That is what he is telling me for quartzscapes plaster....that its the standard and mentioned nothing about csi.

pH of 6.8-7.2 is below TFP guidelines. Like I said he has a grain of truth in what he is recommending but he is not considering or understanding that pH is only one factor in the water.

Lots of "the standards" out there. Lots of start-up guides availabe and none I have seen recommend pH of 6.8-7.2. Ask him where that standard is published?

 

[4x4tx]

Well I started a new thread since the other one was so long, it kind of gets glossed over as time goes by. I wanted to get as many eyeballs on it as possible.
If you want to move this one that is fine.

I asked him where is it posted that quartzscapes' guidelines are 6.8-7.2...he never responded...I am going to call them directly. I also asked him did he give me a recommended level? All he told me to do was keep logs and easiest way to do that was to go to leslies. So I have my leslies logs before I started doing my own testing....there have been times when my ph got about 8 and even once at 9 for a day when I was out of town but it was never over any period of time. Hard for me to believe that is enough time to do anything.

 

[4x4tx]

So I called quartzscapes. They sent me a sheet and it says 7.2-7.6 for ph.

Talked to plaster company and he says no they recommend 6.8-7.2. Now I got zero paperwork from him on chemical recommendations.

He claims I need to do a descaling process....my question is why should I pay for this? He claims its scale but can be reversed with this process.

Earlier in this thread it was aid that a negative CSI would fix his issue...now my question is what is best course of action?

I am also confused on why many thought my plaster was normal? Do most people have scale? I know its not horrible but its 3 months old and sickening to see stains or outlines on my pool surface.

 

[ajw22]

So I called quartzscapes. They sent me a sheet and it says 7.2-7.6 for ph.

Talked to plaster company and he says no they recommend 6.8-7.2. Now I got zero paperwork from him on chemical recommendations.

He claims I need to do a descaling process....my question is why should I pay for this? He claims its scale but can be reversed with this process.

Earlier in this thread it was aid that a negative CSI would fix his issue...now my question is what is best course of action?

You need to decide whose advice you want to follow. Since the plaster company is not willing to do a minor descaling process under warranty I don't know why you expect them to be there for you should you have a major plaster problem.

Your plaster company should be explaining to you what the descaling process is. It is likely an acid wash of the plaster. The acid wash does in a few minutes much more aggressively what running a low CSI may do in a few months.

I am also confused on why many thought my plaster was normal? Do most people have scale? I know its not horrible but its 3 months old and sickening to see stains or outlines on my pool surface.

We only know what you describe. Mottling is normal for many plaster jobs. Some more than others. Scale is not normal especially as rapidly as it has happened to you.

You have put your plaster company on notice about your problems. Have you done it in writing?

If I were you I would run my pool with a low CSI for the next 6-9 months and see how things develop. There is no urgency to descale the pool immediately. If the low CSI does its work and removes the scale you will have saved a bunch of wear on the plaster with the acid wash. If in a year things have not improved or gotten worse you can take the next step.

Sometimes the attempted fix has unintended consequences. Folks have come here with damaged plaster from acid washes. So I would start with the least risky process first and be patient.

 

[4x4tx]

You need to decide whose advice you want to follow. Since the plaster company is not willing to do a minor descaling process under warranty I don't know why you expect them to be there for you should you have a major plaster problem.

Your plaster company should be explaining to you what the descaling process is. It is likely an acid wash of the plaster. The acid wash does in a few minutes much more aggressively what running a low CSI may do in a few months.

Well he hasn't come out and said that he wouldnt, he just suggested that I get one...I am sure first line of defense is its your problem.. First time I talked to them on the phone he acted like it was my problem...but he also didnt have an answer for not having given me any chemical data, where he was coming up with 6.8-7.2 ph recommendations, or that he had me fill out any paperwork at all once the work was done. He was going to have his "water" guy call me Friday....He did not ever call.

As far as the descaling process, he told me it was similar to a high acid type start up and would take 4 days. He said it was not an acid wash but would remove the scale that I have.

We only know what you describe. Mottling is normal for many plaster jobs. Some more than others. Scale is not normal especially as rapidly as it has happened to you.

You have put your plaster company on notice about your problems. Have you done it in writing?

If I were you I would run my pool with a low CSI for the next 6-9 months and see how things develop. There is no urgency to descale the pool immediately. If the low CSI does its work and removes the scale you will have saved a bunch of wear on the plaster with the acid wash. If in a year things have not improved or gotten worse you can take the next step.

Sometimes the attempted fix has unintended consequences. Folks have come here with damaged plaster from acid washes. So I would start with the least risky process first and be patient.

In this thread I asked many times and tried to describe if what I was seeing was scale or mottling. I think the consensus was that it was fine and normal after I posted videos and pictures. It did not look normal to me in person.

i have not sent them anything in writing. I talked with them on Wed and water guy was supposed to call on Friday. I really want to talk to the water guy before I respond in writing. He did say like you are saying that this is not urgent and can be fixed. I am trying to keep my CSI negative and have in my last two pool tests. I do not want to do a acid wash either but do not understand exactly what this 4 day high acid startup involves and if it is just as damaging as acid wash. Should know more tomorrow I hope.

I do not know how they can argue against what NPC themselves says it the proper PH balance. Ultimately, who is responsible if there is a warranty claim, is it the plaster company themselves or NPC? I see a lot of finger pointing about to take place.

 

[ajw22]

Ultimately, who is responsible if there is a warranty claim, is it the plaster company themselves or NPC? I see a lot of finger pointing about to take place.

The plaster company warrants what it wants to. What does the warranty say in your contract with them?

NPC warranties the materials only. Their limited warranty says they will replace materials if necessary but are not responsible for replacement or repair. Basically they don't take any responsibility for the work of companies using their materials.

 

[4x4tx]

I'm finding out...I dont see that I have any of that information on hand in my folder. I did talk to his startup guy today. He claims that scale can only be a result of chemical imbalance and a PH of 7.8 would do it. His suggestion was a low 7.0-7.2 range of ph. He suggested buying some jacks magic I believe and doubling up on scale and metal remover. What does this stuff have in it?

He said a 4 day descaling process would run around $450 but suggested like you to try these methods until next spring and see where it is at.

This is the product I have at the house Natural Chemistry

Is there any benefit to using this product or another.....or keep along the negative csi train and see what happens?

 

[ajw22]

What is in Natural Chemistry Metal Free?

So I'm in the habit of checking MSDS sheets now, thanks to the TFP. However in one case, it has me more confused. Natural Chemistry Metal Free shows 1% citric acid. What is the other 99%? I'm trying to determine if this is a HEDP sequestrant. They claim it is phosphate free, so that rules...

www.troublefreepool.com

You don’t have a metal problem. Why would you put this in your water?

Pool store potions don’t change the basic chemistry that causes scale or removes scale. Keeping your CSI low is the fix. Potions just do it for you in aggressive ways with unwanted side effects.

 

[4x4tx]

What is in Natural Chemistry Metal Free?

So I'm in the habit of checking MSDS sheets now, thanks to the TFP. However in one case, it has me more confused. Natural Chemistry Metal Free shows 1% citric acid. What is the other 99%? I'm trying to determine if this is a HEDP sequestrant. They claim it is phosphate free, so that rules...

www.troublefreepool.com

You don’t have a metal problem. Why would you put this in your water?

Pool store potions don’t change the basic chemistry that causes scale or removes scale. Keeping your CSI low is the fix. Potions just do it for you in aggressive ways with unwanted side effects.

lol well that was my question....It does mention it prevents scale
Metalfree quickly and effectively binds-up unwanted metals in your pool water, to prevent staining and discoloration from metals like copper and iron, and minerals like calcium. Metalfree locks up metals, and also prevents scale build-up due to too much calcium and other minerals in your pool. Metal-Free is an all-natural product that will not add phosphates while giving you a metal free pool. Other Stain & Scale control chemicals add orthophosphates to the water, as a means of control - not Metalfree!

Ok so a low CSI is all that I need to do to reverse the scale. Works for me and saves me $$$...I just want to be sure that it is truely the fix and if so I will stick with it.

 

[ajw22]

lol well that was my question....It does mention it prevents scale

As does any product that lowers your pH and thus your CSI.

I just want to be sure that it is truely the fix and if so I will stick with it.

No pool store potion changes the underlying science and chemistry of pool water and scale.

Don't know if it will truly fix your problem but you should start with the least aggressive means first.

 

[4x4tx]

Alright tonights numbers are in...CSI of -.55....is this too low ? what should be my target CSI during these next few months?

 

[ajw22]

Thats about as low as you want to go. But I doubt it will stay there for a day.

 

[4x4tx]

Updated numbers tonight in my pool logs....Do I need to start raising my TA?

 

[mknauss]

Why did you add MA if your pH is 7.2?

 

[4x4tx]

Why did you add MA if your pH is 7.2?

My pool plasterer claims that with quartzscapes I need to keep my ph between a 6.8-7.2 ? So I have been trying to keep it around a 7.0 and to keep my CSI at around a -.55 to see if it will slowly erase the scale I developed. He claims that because my ph was 7.8 for a while that is what created my scale.

 

[mknauss]

Forcing the pH that low will consume TA. If you wish to follow their directions, you will need to add baking soda to raise TA.

I do not think they are giving you good advice with new plaster.

 

[4x4tx]

Ok thanks @mknauss ....so what are your thoughts? @ajw22 suggested keeping a negative CSI and that overtime it was the least aggressive way to get rid of the scale.

 

[4x4tx]

TT

 

[mknauss]

As your water temperature falls, your CSI will get more negative. I would suggest letting your pH be in the 7.6 to 7.8 range and see if that stabilizes it a bit.