Refurb - Sachse Tx w/ Bi-Carb Startup

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Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

kimkats said:
SWEET! Bring on the plaster!!

Have you seen this:

Pool School - Start-up New Plaster

Please note the 30 day no swimming depends on the start up method they use. Ask them when you can swim and go from there.

Kim:kim:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link Kim! I am planning the bicarb start up. NEED to get my fill water tested tonight so I can get the correct amounts of Baking Soda and MA I will need to begin. At this point I believe I will need about 700 oz of Baking Soda to get TA to 275 and 4-5 gallons of MA to keep pH ~7.8. Once I have my real fill numbers I can get a bit more accurate. I found a 13.5lb box of baking soda at Sams. Now need to find someone with a membership....
 
Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

Plaster prep is done. They uncovered a fairly large void in the gunite at the bottom of the light (pictures tomorrow). Not sure if I should be concerned.

We are scheduled for plaster Wednesday of next week. Time to get my tap water numbers and plan my chemical shopping for the bi-carb startup. See my fill water results and calculations from Pool Math. Please check me!

Fill Water
FC = 1.8
pH = 8.0 (high!)
TA = 90
CH = 130


To get TA to target bi-carb start of 275
Add 586oz Baking Soda - Sams club sells 13.5lb boxes (need 3 boxes)

To keep pH @ 7.8
Start with 6 Gallons MA (Lowes 2-pack)

I have tri-clor pucks to put in chlorinator (on very low) after day 2 or 3.
I will purchase 3 gallons Liquid Chlorine (Lowes)

I have a thermometer, new filter & cartridges. Is there anything else I should consider for startup? I assume the CH = 130 is OK.

Edit: I have my Pool Math App purchased and installed!

I do have a very basic question. When adding MA do I add to 5 gal bucket of water, mix and poor into pool directly along the side? I assume to stay away from steps and seats. Brush very well sides and bottom immediately after adding to keep it off the pool floor.

Should I move this post and others to Swimming Pool Start-up and Closing Forum?
 
Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

Still targeting Wednesday for plaster. I have pulled my old paperwork and had my gallonage off by 500. It is approx. 13000 (and 16x30 not 16x32) per the PB original docs. This aligns with Pool Math pretty close. I have adjusted my signature.

I did a fill test on a 22 gallon trash can with two hoses (1 from house and 1 from irrigation system) with rags wrapped around ends. It took 1min 30sec to fill 22 gallons. I did 3 tests and they all came within a few seconds. 22/90 = .244 gallons/sec or 14.7gallons/min.

SO... If I am adjusting my water (bicarb startup) every 2500 gallons I will test/adjust every 170 minutes or 2 hours 50 minutes. Probably can round to 3 hours/2500 gallons. Per the measurements and calculations it will take ~15.5 hours to fill.

I have purchased 40.5lbs of baking soda (Sams club), 6 gallons of MA (Lowes), and 2 gallons of Chlorine (Lowes) to start off.

Per Jamie P's bi-carb startup thread I need to target TA = 275 and pH = 7.8. My fill water pH = 8.0! So better watch it closely.

I will need to adjust Pool Math for each time I measure and add baking soda and MA.
3 hour mark: 2500 gallons
6 hour mark: 5000 gallons
9 hour mark: 7500 gallons
12 hour mark: 10000
15 hour mark: 12500

I do have a few questions. I assume I will add the Baking soda first, brush to mix, then ~15 minutes later add the MA and brush to mix? The first 2500 (and 5000) gallons will barely cover the bottom of the pool. What method should I use to add the MA?

Would appreciate several sets of eyes on my math and my logic. Looking for any and all comments and questions.

And if the schedule holds, I will be working from home on Thursday and Friday....
 
Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

peirek said:
Still targeting Wednesday for plaster. I have pulled my old paperwork and had my gallonage off by 500. It is approx. 13000 (and 16x30 not 16x32) per the PB original docs. This aligns with Pool Math pretty close. I have adjusted my signature.

I did a fill test on a 22 gallon trash can with two hoses (1 from house and 1 from irrigation system) with rags wrapped around ends. It took 1min 30sec to fill 22 gallons. I did 3 tests and they all came within a few seconds. 22/90 = .244 gallons/sec or 14.7gallons/min.

SO... If I am adjusting my water (bicarb startup) every 2500 gallons I will test/adjust every 170 minutes or 2 hours 50 minutes. Probably can round to 3 hours/2500 gallons. Per the measurements and calculations it will take ~15.5 hours to fill.

I have purchased 40.5lbs of baking soda (Sams club), 6 gallons of MA (Lowes), and 2 gallons of Chlorine (Lowes) to start off.

Per Jamie P's bi-carb startup thread I need to target TA = 275 and pH = 7.8. My fill water pH = 8.0! So better watch it closely.

I will need to adjust Pool Math for each time I measure and add baking soda and MA.
3 hour mark: 2500 gallons
6 hour mark: 5000 gallons
9 hour mark: 7500 gallons
12 hour mark: 10000
15 hour mark: 12500

I do have a few questions. I assume I will add the Baking soda first, brush to mix, then ~15 minutes later add the MA and brush to mix? The first 2500 (and 5000) gallons will barely cover the bottom of the pool. What method should I use to add the MA?

Would appreciate several sets of eyes on my math and my logic. Looking for any and all comments and questions.

And if the schedule holds, I will be working from home on Thursday and Friday....
Click to expand...

You do not need to wrap the end of the hose(s) with rags when filling pebble finishes. The rags will needlessly restrict the flow and really provide no benefit.

When adding the baking soda, scoop a 5 gallon bucket full of water from the pool and add the bicarb to it. This way when you dump it into the pool it has already been dissolved which will greatly lessen the brushing required for it to mix in.

When you test the water, adjust the pH first and then add the bicarb. You do not need to wait between additions, just add the acid, mix it in with a brush and then add the bicarb.

You can use Jamie's number's as a reference but not for your targets in your pool. Using Pool Math, aim for a CSI of +0.5 and limit the amount of time that it is above +0.6 and below +0.3. I don't recall if it was mentioned but you absolutely must use some sort of startup sequestrant (Jack's Magic, Startup Tec, Beautec, etc) since you will be maintaining your pool so near scale potential. It would be a good idea to add the sequestrant in increments as the pool is filling as well.

A good sequestrant will be based on HEDP, phosphonic acid, or phosphonic acid derivatives but you will probably be limited to what is locally available or what your plasterer provides.

I would suggest using trichlor during your startup period and not liquid chlorine.
 
Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

bdavis466 said:
You do not need to wrap the end of the hose(s) with rags when filling pebble finishes. The rags will needlessly restrict the flow and really provide no benefit.
I guess I better redo my measurement without the rags.

When adding the baking soda, scoop a 5 gallon bucket full of water from the pool and add the bicarb to it. This way when you dump it into the pool it has already been dissolved which will greatly lessen the brushing required for it to mix in.
Makes good sense.

When you test the water, adjust the pH first and then add the bicarb. You do not need to wait between additions, just add the acid, mix it in with a brush and then add the bicarb.
Got it. MA first, baking soda second.

You can use Jamie's number's as a reference but not for your targets in your pool. Using Pool Math, aim for a CSI of +0.5 and limit the amount of time that it is above +0.6 and below +0.3.
This is great info, thanks! I plugged the following numbers into Pool Math
FC 1.8 (fill water measured)
pH 7.8 (target)
TA 275 (target)
CH 130 (fill water measured)
CYA 0
Borate 0 (didn't measure this)
SALT 1000 (default)
Temp 75 (This may be on the high side - dependent on time of day fill starts)
This gives me CSI of .34

Adjusting the TA to 400 gives me CSI of .49
I guess the CH of 130 is pretty low requiring the TA to be so high?
With that high of a TA required, I need another 40lbs of baking soda! :gone:
Is my math right? Or am I missing something?


I don't recall if it was mentioned but you absolutely must use some sort of startup sequestrant (Jack's Magic, Startup Tec, Beautec, etc) since you will be maintaining your pool so near scale potential. It would be a good idea to add the sequestrant in increments as the pool is filling as welll
A good sequestrant will be based on HEDP, phosphonic acid, or phosphonic acid derivatives but you will probably be limited to what is locally available or what your plasterer provides.
My plasterer is providing the sequestrant. Not sure which one. Will ask tomorrow.
Makes sense to add in increments with the other chemicals.

I would suggest using tricolor during your startup period and not liquid chlorine.
That is easy. Have you seen my in-line chlorinator setup? :cool:
Click to expand...

Thanks for your guidance Brian!!
 
Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

You are correct on needing more of the bicarb. I recall going through 220 pounds on my pool.

That's why I don't care for the 500-(TA+CH) formula since it doesn't take water temp and other factors into account.

You don't need to test for borates because you won't have any in your fill water. Your salt level will also be well below 1000 and I would expect it to be under 100ppm. Salt lowers the CSI so having a lower salt level will slightly increase the CSI.

Plan on getting a little extra bicarb. With all of the acid you'll be adding you may need to bump the TA up at some point. One gallon of acid in your pool will lower the TA by about 40ppm.
 
Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

bdavis466 said:
You are correct on needing more of the bicarb. I recall going through 220 pounds on my pool.

That's why I don't care for the 500-(TA+CH) formula since it doesn't take water temp and other factors into account.

You don't need to test for borates because you won't have any in your fill water. Your salt level will also be well below 1000 and I would expect it to be under 100ppm. Salt lowers the CSI so having a lower salt level will slightly increase the CSI.

Plan on getting a little extra bicarb. With all of the acid you'll be adding you may need to bump the TA up at some point. One gallon of acid in your pool will lower the TA by about 40ppm.
Click to expand...

Good catch on the Salt level. Lowering it to 100 (or below) yields a CSI of .51 with TA 325 (44 lbs baking soda); pH 7.8; 75 degree water. I will pick up another 40 lbs of baking soda to have on hand.

Plasterer supplies Startup Tec so that is on track with your recommendations Brian.

Platerer came by the house this morning and verified plaster tomorrow. Woo Hoo!
 

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Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

We are getting plastered :cheers:

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Blue blue then.......


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It turns grey/blue when they spray it down with water to expose the pebbles

Acid wash in the morning and fill start immediately following
 

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Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

You must be so excited!!! The finish is looking fabulous!

Thank you so much for documenting everything, especially about the Bicarbonate Start-up. Your thread along with Jamie P's thread will be a huge help to others. I remember another BiCarb start-up in Colorado, but I don't remember a lot of documentation about the steps.

Good luck and thanks for sharing!
Suz
 
Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

Fill started 8:45 CT. Should have first 2500 gallons in @11:45. Darn work got in the way this morning so I am at the office. Will be heading home in time to adjust at 11:45. Sorry no time to post pics this morning.
 
Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

Ok first set of numbers are in @ 2349G mark (per meter). Pretty much aligns on my calculations from the 20G trash can.

11:45 AM
FC .8
pH 8.0+ used 8.2 in Pool Math
TA 110
CH 160
Temp 94
CSI .73!!


The plasterer put 2 bottles of Startup Tec in at the beginning!! WTH???

Pool Math @ 23500 Gallons says to hit .51 CSI:
Add 22oz MA - target pH @7.8
Add 359oz (by weight) Baking Soda - I assume the 13.5/4/1 lb bags are by weight?

So that is what we added and brushed, brushed, brushed to mix it in.

Next testing @ 2:45 ish (5000 G)

My Taylor Speed Stir arrived at the house 30 minutes before the first test! How sweet is that timing?


For the hungry TFP groupies

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Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

Oh NO! Just checked and my TA was @ 475 pushing my CSI to 1.1!!!!!!!!! ARGH

2:30 PM Readings
Gallons 4700 per meter - again aligns closely to calculated
Water Temp 95
FC .6
pH 8.0
TA 475 (somehow badly missed on the add last time)
CH 160
CSI 1.1 UGH!

Pool Math tells me to hit CSI of .5; lower pH to 7.4 by adding 36 oz MA

Done and brushed!

I will start checking hourly until I can get the CSI to stay under .5
 
Re: Refurb - Sachse, Tx

If you lower the pH too much you are just wasting the bicarb. There is no reason to take the pH lower than 7.8.

Your CSI is only temporarily high and it's not like scale formation is an instant thing... Even if it was, that's what the sequestrant was for
 

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