You don't have some funky anode in the pool, do you? Sometimes in the skimmer?
Just trying to toss out ideas?
Maddie
Just trying to toss out ideas?
Maddie
Recurring Metal Stains... worse than ever...
- Thread starter carlos31820
- Start date
You don't have some funky anode in the pool, do you? Sometimes in the skimmer?
Just trying to toss out ideas?
Maddie
I have an anode outside the pool buried in moist soil and connected to the pool bonding. Not sure how "funky" it may be. Looks pretty dull.
Well, good news and bad news. So far the AA treatment is going well, water is almost completely clear. Pool is stain free but still consuming large amounts of chlorine. I'm only adding enough to bring to up to 2.0 or 3.0 and within hours, it's back to .50. I don't want to add so much chlorine that the stains come back.
The bad news is that the Hanna Iron tester came in and both my pool and source water tested as 0 ppm iron.
I'm also only showing about 12 ppm of sequestrant using Jack's sequestrant test kit. I've added 4 quarts of Jack's Purple stuff since Saturday. 3 quarts during the AA treatment and an additional quart in the past 2 days. I'm out of Jack's Purple right now but have ordered 4 additional bottles that should be here in a few days.
Here are some photos of the progress.
The bad news is that the Hanna Iron tester came in and both my pool and source water tested as 0 ppm iron.
I'm also only showing about 12 ppm of sequestrant using Jack's sequestrant test kit. I've added 4 quarts of Jack's Purple stuff since Saturday. 3 quarts during the AA treatment and an additional quart in the past 2 days. I'm out of Jack's Purple right now but have ordered 4 additional bottles that should be here in a few days.
Here are some photos of the progress.
Send me a pm with your email address and I will buy it off of you as promised
However, you might first consider taking a 5 gallon bucket, adding slam+ level of chlorine, let it sit for a day or two to break down the sequestrant, and test the bucket water again before shipping it off to be sure. I say that because I'm not sure if it will read sequestered water, and right now your water is highly sequestered.
If there's still no iron, then time to look more closely at copper or underliner issues if the stains come back.
However, you might first consider taking a 5 gallon bucket, adding slam+ level of chlorine, let it sit for a day or two to break down the sequestrant, and test the bucket water again before shipping it off to be sure. I say that because I'm not sure if it will read sequestered water, and right now your water is highly sequestered.
If there's still no iron, then time to look more closely at copper or underliner issues if the stains come back.
Send me a pm with your email address and I will buy it off of you as promised
However, you might first consider taking a 5 gallon bucket, adding slam+ level of chlorine, let it sit for a day or two to break down the sequestrant, and test the bucket water again before shipping it off to be sure. I say that because I'm not sure if it will read sequestered water, and right now your water is highly sequestered.
If there's still no iron, then time to look more closely at copper or underliner issues if the stains come back.
I'll probably keep it but thank you for the offer. On the flip side, if it doesn't detect sequestered iron, maybe I can use it to confirm that all my iron is sequestered (reading 0.0 ppm).
I have the hardest time doing the Jacks Sequestrant test. Their instructions say to add a drop of reagent at a time until the test turns purple but mine really turns blue then purple-ish, and eventually a bright purple so I'm not sure which color is the one I'm supposed to stop on in order to get a proper sequestrant reading. I've sent the Jacks people an email asking for clarification.
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That also makes sense, but I didn't want to leave you stuck with something I told you to buy if I know you're keeping it, I will go ahead and order one for myself...for the same reason you're thinking about keeping it
At least this way if the stain comes back, you'll be able to read if there's iron, as you now have a baseline of zero right after sequestering.
if I know you're keeping it, I will go ahead and order one for myself...for the same reason you're thinking about keeping it At least this way if the stain comes back, you'll be able to read if there's iron, as you now have a baseline of zero right after sequestering.
I bet the test is like the TA and CH tests. Keep adding until no change then subtract one.
Well, it looks like I just can't win when it comes to keeping the stains away. It looks like the staining is slowly returning to the walls on the deep end of the pool. They're quite faint but i put a bit of ascorbic acid on it and it lifted and the liner looks cleaner on the spot I treated with AA. I don't understand what else I can try.
The SWG has been on 60% for the past 2 days (pump running 24-7) as I was trying to keep putting some chlorine in the water as there was heavy liquid chlorine consumption on days 1 and 2 after the AA treatment as expected. The chlorine finally started holding yesterday (day 3).
I've used 4 quarts of Jack's Purple Stuff in the past 4 days. 3 quarts on the day of the AA treatment and an additional quart since. The Jack's sequest kit shows that I have 12 ppm of sequestrant right now.
The Hanna iron test showed 0.00 again tonight even though the stains are coming back.
I don't know what else to do. To say I'm beyond frustrated would be a gross understatement.
I'm thinking about switching from the Jack's product to something else (Proteam Metal Magic?). I know the thinking around here is that if the stains come back, it means that I'm not using enough sequestrant but I can't sustain the current spending if the correct maintenance dosage of Jacks for my pool is anything north of a quart a week. The appeal of using Jack's was that they have the sequestrant test kit but again, it's not really helped me as keeping their suggested level of sequestrant has not worked. I can't spend this kind of money week over week.
Here's my latest water test:
FC: 3.0 (purposely keeping it low since the AA treatment was just 4 days ago)
CC: 0.0
pH: 7.2
TA: 70
CYA: 70
Calcium: 200
Salt: 3200
The SWG has been on 60% for the past 2 days (pump running 24-7) as I was trying to keep putting some chlorine in the water as there was heavy liquid chlorine consumption on days 1 and 2 after the AA treatment as expected. The chlorine finally started holding yesterday (day 3).
I've used 4 quarts of Jack's Purple Stuff in the past 4 days. 3 quarts on the day of the AA treatment and an additional quart since. The Jack's sequest kit shows that I have 12 ppm of sequestrant right now.
The Hanna iron test showed 0.00 again tonight even though the stains are coming back.
I don't know what else to do. To say I'm beyond frustrated would be a gross understatement.
I'm thinking about switching from the Jack's product to something else (Proteam Metal Magic?). I know the thinking around here is that if the stains come back, it means that I'm not using enough sequestrant but I can't sustain the current spending if the correct maintenance dosage of Jacks for my pool is anything north of a quart a week. The appeal of using Jack's was that they have the sequestrant test kit but again, it's not really helped me as keeping their suggested level of sequestrant has not worked. I can't spend this kind of money week over week.
Here's my latest water test:
FC: 3.0 (purposely keeping it low since the AA treatment was just 4 days ago)
CC: 0.0
pH: 7.2
TA: 70
CYA: 70
Calcium: 200
Salt: 3200
- May 23, 2015
- 25,697
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Do you have a white plastic bucket (roughly 5 gallons or so)? Can you get one easily? Really white, like blinding white....
Take a 5 gallon sample of pool water and dump a cup of household bleach in it. What do you get? My guess is the water goes yellowish/brown and then the white bucket turns brown....but I'd like to confirm it first.
Take a 5 gallon sample of pool water and dump a cup of household bleach in it. What do you get? My guess is the water goes yellowish/brown and then the white bucket turns brown....but I'd like to confirm it first.
Ok, I'll try anything.
I do have a bright white bucket. So, I put about 3 gallons of pool water in there and added a cup of 12.5% liquid chlorine. How long should it take for the test to yield staining?
- May 23, 2015
- 25,697
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
OK, it's covered with a wet rag (what does that do, btw?)... and its on my back porch.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,697
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Keeps the water from evaporating and dirt and "wildlife" from getting into it....it's also a place where the magic fairies can rest as they flutter around at dusk....you do see the magic fairies, right?
Not sure what I'm seeing besides rage right now. I appreciate your help.
But even if the bucket stains (and I think it will), I still don't know what to do about the rest of the pool. I'm pretty certain my staining is iron since AA works so well against the stains.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,697
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Well, I sensed your frustration and I was hoping a little humor might get you to smile....no offense intended.
Here's what I'm thinking - if the bucket turns brown or stains a little, then we know you have iron in the water. The point of the bleach is to raise the FC and pH up so that the metal is not stable in solution, oxidizes and scales out. Then, after we do that, we can add a little acid to the bucket (not sure how much yet) to drop the pH back down. If we get the pH a little below 7, somewhere between 6 and 7, then the iron might dissolve back into the solution again. Then you can use your tester gizmo to see how much iron you have....
Now, let's say the bucket water doesn't scale. Then that would indicate no iron in solution at all. This means the stains are coming form the outside-in. My understanding from previous posts is that you have a "special-kind-of-wonderful" soil in Georgia full of lots of soluble iron....you must have wonderfully green trees and plants there. Given that the back of the liner may be in contact with said-wonderful soil, the iron would then most likely be coming from there. Now, typically speaking, metal atoms do NOT like to diffuse through polymers and the vinyl liner is a nice thick polymer layer. HOWEVER, your liner has seams somewhere as well as infiltrations where the in-floor jets are located. Since the stains appear to be coming back in the SAME LOCATIONS every time, that tells us that your pool water is in contact with the ground in those areas.
I'm hoping your pool water actually has lots of iron in solution because that would be easy(er) to fix - dump the pool and refill it with clean water (in your case, lots of partial drains and refills). Or, maybe we can floc the heck out of the water and try to get the metals to fall out of solution so you can vacuum the floc layer to waste.
If your metals are coming from the outside-in....well, then we've got a bigger problem to deal with. You may need to have a new liner installed and/or have the walls and floor of the pool structure redone to keep the liner away from the soil....
^+1
Except there may be an option to treat around perimeter (if its iron bacteria).
Do you have a scuba mask and underwater camera? Have you even able to examine the stains up close?
Have you ever tried a chlorine puck in a sock on one....that would possibly tell us something. Underliner staining usually responds to a puck. Though I'm not sure in the case of iron bacteria where the orange goes...
I keep thinking about smallpooldad in Hawaii. I believe he needed to have his sequestrant in the 20s to keep his stains away from the soil iron that would blow in. But after 4 quarts I'd expect your sequestrant level to be higher than 12. So nothing is adding up for me here, sorry to say.
Pending outcome of the bucket test,and maybe a puck test, I do have one more treatment idea that is definitely deep end territory...Matt alluded to it...floccing with alum, while tricky and unreliable, would in theory strip any metals AND spent phosphates from your heavy sequestrant use...because if you're at 12 active sequestrant, i suspect that means your sequestrant is breaking down fast for some reason, which creates high levels of po4 (phosphate) over time, especially if calcium levels are lower (though I think you raised your CH last year Er Jacks recc, right?
Lets see if we can get a read first to try to resolve.
Except there may be an option to treat around perimeter (if its iron bacteria).
Do you have a scuba mask and underwater camera? Have you even able to examine the stains up close?
Have you ever tried a chlorine puck in a sock on one....that would possibly tell us something. Underliner staining usually responds to a puck. Though I'm not sure in the case of iron bacteria where the orange goes...
I keep thinking about smallpooldad in Hawaii. I believe he needed to have his sequestrant in the 20s to keep his stains away from the soil iron that would blow in. But after 4 quarts I'd expect your sequestrant level to be higher than 12. So nothing is adding up for me here, sorry to say.
Pending outcome of the bucket test,and maybe a puck test, I do have one more treatment idea that is definitely deep end territory...Matt alluded to it...floccing with alum, while tricky and unreliable, would in theory strip any metals AND spent phosphates from your heavy sequestrant use...because if you're at 12 active sequestrant, i suspect that means your sequestrant is breaking down fast for some reason, which creates high levels of po4 (phosphate) over time, especially if calcium levels are lower (though I think you raised your CH last year Er Jacks recc, right?
Lets see if we can get a read first to try to resolve.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,697
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Does anyone know the concentration of these Jack's products out of the bottle and what the recommended application rate is ?
- May 23, 2015
- 25,697
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Well, if my Googling is correct and the Purple Stuff is close to 100% HEDP and my calculator is working correctly, then 32fl oz of Jacks in a 27,500 gallon pool should result in a concentration of roughly 12.5ppm. The standard literature indicates that in order to be effective as a scale inhibitor, the HEDP concentration should be in the range of 1-10ppm and 10-25ppm for corrosion inhibiting. Based on your measured values with the test kit, you are definitely in the right range for metal stain inhibiting.
Hmmm, well...lets see what we find in the bucket tomorrow.....
Hmmm, well...lets see what we find in the bucket tomorrow.....
My only hang up with the behind the liner theory is that my liner does not touch soil anywhere.
The walls are marine grade lumber but between the walls and liner, there is a thin foam material. The floors and slopes are vermiculite.
Here's a photo from before the liner installation although it doesn't show the wall foam.
The walls are marine grade lumber but between the walls and liner, there is a thin foam material. The floors and slopes are vermiculite.
Here's a photo from before the liner installation although it doesn't show the wall foam.
I appreciate why it seems a bit fantastical I was wondering about the influence or breach capability related to the pop ups...you have some in-floor jets or a cleaner system, right? I cant see any in the pic....I was discussing your case with hubby last night and we were wondering about the stain pattern and the in-floor system. Eg. If slight,pinhole leak where the floor fittings are could lead to behind the liner staining...
There's no copper piping associated with the in-floor jets, is there?
The biggest mystery to me is that your staining does not follow the pattern I'm familiar with:
1. First, steps and skimmer box discolors
2. Before the new liner, next in the corner of the cross-jet flow, sidewall
That you have not reported skimmer box staining or step staining, but have large swaths of staining on the floor is what doesn't add up to me. But if te floor jets agitate the water there, that may explain it.
The tell tale sign for me of a heavy iron load in a pool can usually be seen inside a skimmer box over time, sequestrant or no. Then again, you've performed many AA treatments.
One time before going SWG, I did a test called the Metal Magic sponge test on my corner staining...length of time to lift gave an approximation of how much sequestrant needed to remove a stain. In my case, it took an initial dose of 5 quarts in my 24k gallon pool, but only minor but faithful weekly top ups the rest of that year. I think Saturn94 mentioned a similar megadose start up with success.
Here's the PDF if you'd like to take a look...far less technical then measuring sequestrant and moot if there's something else going on, but at this point, all options are worth exploring methinks
http://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/MetalMagicSpongeTest.pdf
Metal Magic was also about $7 cheaper per bottle for me, purchased from poolgeek online in Michigan where its made. Ymmv.
I was wondering about the influence or breach capability related to the pop ups...you have some in-floor jets or a cleaner system, right? I cant see any in the pic....I was discussing your case with hubby last night and we were wondering about the stain pattern and the in-floor system. Eg. If slight,pinhole leak where the floor fittings are could lead to behind the liner staining...There's no copper piping associated with the in-floor jets, is there?
The biggest mystery to me is that your staining does not follow the pattern I'm familiar with:
1. First, steps and skimmer box discolors
2. Before the new liner, next in the corner of the cross-jet flow, sidewall
That you have not reported skimmer box staining or step staining, but have large swaths of staining on the floor is what doesn't add up to me. But if te floor jets agitate the water there, that may explain it.
The tell tale sign for me of a heavy iron load in a pool can usually be seen inside a skimmer box over time, sequestrant or no. Then again, you've performed many AA treatments.
One time before going SWG, I did a test called the Metal Magic sponge test on my corner staining...length of time to lift gave an approximation of how much sequestrant needed to remove a stain. In my case, it took an initial dose of 5 quarts in my 24k gallon pool, but only minor but faithful weekly top ups the rest of that year. I think Saturn94 mentioned a similar megadose start up with success.
Here's the PDF if you'd like to take a look...far less technical then measuring sequestrant and moot if there's something else going on, but at this point, all options are worth exploring methinks
http://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/MetalMagicSpongeTest.pdf
Metal Magic was also about $7 cheaper per bottle for me, purchased from poolgeek online in Michigan where its made. Ymmv.