Recurring Metal Stains... worse than ever...

All my pipes are pvc, no copper anywhere except in the currently bypassed pool heater.

I will see staining of the white skimmer box but it's not where it usually starts. If I let it get go untreated for long (during winter, for example), there's a definite beige/brown stain right at the skimmer water line and below.

I don't have white fiberglass steps, my steps are covered by vinyl liner and they do stain just like the shallow end of the pool does.

The staining is fairly uniform over the entire shallow end of the pool with darker staining around the wall edges so I'm not thinking water leaking past the floor pop ups may be the culprit as the staining is present on the entire liner, it just stains more in some areas than others.

I'm attaching a couple old photos showing the location of the floor jets and a photo showing the shallow end staining in relation to the shallow end floor return.


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This next photo is not what the shallow end looks like right now. This is an old photo showing the location of the floor return in relation to the overall stain when it looks bad.

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Here is an additional photo I took yesterday showing the stain returning on the wall slope. The staining is VERY light. It may be hard to see but the arrow points to a section about a foot wide where I poured a couple ounces of AA powder and it lifted the stain yesterday evening.

On the photo, you may be able to see the light staining on the left and right sides of the arrow. There's basically a foot wide section of clean liner as the AA cloud traveled down the wall. The arrow points at the clean section.

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Cloudiness could be from the destruction of sequestrant since FC is well above shock level. The high pH from the bleach probably caused some calcium carbonate to precipitate.

So now we have an answer - you have no metal in your water....
 
So what other stains are lifted so easily by "metal removal" products? AA and GLB Stain Magnet (sodium sulfite) work immediately and effectively at lifting the stains.

Remember that the GLB product is sodium erythorbate which is an antioxidant that is structurally and chemically similar to Vitamin C, aka, ascorbic acid. The sodium sulfite in the GLB product is just there to neutralize chlorine so it doesn't destroy the erythorbate molecule (similar to how AA and chlorine destroy one another). So the AA and GLB treatments are essentially the same thing.

I should have been bit more precise - you have metals in your pool and it is highly likely that those stains are iron deposits. It's just not coming from the water itself. I really do believe that water may be infiltrating your liner near the jets and that is why the iron is showing up first in those areas. While I agree that the base of the pool had a very well done vermiculite layer and the wall are marine grade lumber, that's not necessarily proof that water can not infiltrate the space between the liner and structure. You live in Georgia where it is wet and the ground can easily be saturated with water; it's not necessarily enough to cause the liner to float, but moisture will eventual reside in that space. Your soil is known to have high levels of iron in it, so any ground water is going to have iron in it. Many people who have vinyl pools forgo getting things like main drains and light niches and floor jets because vinyl is known to suffer from leaks in those types of infiltrations when the installer is not careful...and, even when the installer does a good job, leaks can develop. Given all of the water testing you have done on both your pool water and your fill water, there is simply no reason to believe the water itself is the source. As Sherlock Holmes would say, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth..."

So what to do about it - not entirely sure. I don't believe there are any easy options here. You either have to maintain a high sequestrant level, or try some other types like ProTeam Metal Magic (or whatever it is called) OR you have to do some destructive testing (remove the liner) to figure out why the stains are always coming back in the same spots. You may have to suffer through another season of stains and then try to do another AA treatment and then a bunch of partial drains to see if replacing a lot of the water helps at all. I know you did that once, but it likely only replaced 25-50% of the water. You may need to do that process 3 or 4 times to get a better reduction.

I really do wish I had a simple answer....
 
Trust me, I wish there was any answer, not just a simple one...

About the water replacement, I've done that 3 times in the past year. The first 2 times, I only replaced about a third of the water (drained water down to 1 foot in the shallow end). The last time I drained was just a few months ago when water needed to be drained to fix a section of liner track that had come loose from the pool wall. That last time, I drained all the way to about a foot lower than the shallow end to almost disastrous results as the liner in the shallow end of the pool started to shrink when it dried.

In any case, I'm back at square one. Still having to keep high levels of sequestrant at considerable expense. Switching to some other brand has the drawback that I will have no way to test the amount of available sequestrant in the water.

The destructive option is basically replacing the liner and in the process, seeing what the surfaces behind the liner may look like. I agree that the stains are iron and it's GOT to be coming from somewhere but I really don't think it's coming in from water behind the liner. When our pool was dug, it was right before a particularly rainy season yet there was absolutely no water seen in the deepest pool sections, it was all very dry dirt and no water seeped in anywhere. My yard slopes somewhat aggressively past the pool area and thru some woods to a natural creek that runs along the very back of the property. It just doesn't seem like the water table could be high enough to push water into the pool thru some flaw in the liner installation but for my pool to not ever leak water on seasons where we don't get a lot of rain and the water table would be lower.

And please understand that I know you're all just trying to help make sense of what seems like an impossible situation and I appreciate and welcome any and all plausible theories. I'm to the point that anything is a possibility. So although I'm very skeptical about the water-behind-the-liner theory, there's nothing I can do about that until it's time to replace the pool liner.

I just feel defeated by the stain issue. It just feels like I'll just be spending huge amounts of money on this never-ending cycle of stain removal and expensive sequestrant until the time comes to replace the liner and truly start over with 100% new water.
 
I do not blame you one bit for feeling discouraged. Maybe at this point it might be more helpful to take an expense reduction approach. I fear that if there's truly no high concentration of metals in your source water or the overall pool water, that the sequestrant levels are largely only to benefit a small area, rendering the expense and pita factor too exorbitant.

Lets see if we can work on the goal of at least reducing your sequestrant cost and ruling out other possibilities before entertaining destructive options, if you have the energy and motivation for it ;) With that said, the next time you change the liner, ask for a barrier foam or sheet to be on the safe side, and consider a tan liner, which I suspect may hide it more if this is a case of iron blown in from surrounding soil and settling on the floor, or alternately, of surround infiltration. Leak testing with dye on areas near the staining might also be informative.

For example, I was sure i had no leaks, but when they actually changed the liner, I did have a pinhole leak behind my side ladder that allowed water to infiltrate into the corner where my worst staining was. So whether I knew it or not, my worst stain area was exacerbated by small amounts of untreated water behind the liner. (My new liner is a pattern called Reef that was selected specifically not to show iron as readily, btw...its a mix of Black and Tan and beige and blue.)

But instead of taking it all on at once, keep all explanation options open and give yourself space between to just enjoy the pool. Trust me on this...I spent a few years on my issue...and still spend thought and time on strategies going forward.

The way to have it not drive you crazy is to realize this may be a multimodal problem with multiple variables that can be slowly remedied over time but that may not wholly add up to a definitive dx right now.

I have one idea that might be worth trying on two fronts - with caution or an alternate substance. Its what ive rcommended in the past for copper treatment, for which ive heard reports of success. I'd like to find out if acid or Metal Magic lightens the stains. I wish you were a neighbor because there is a tool called purity spot remover i own that lets you fill the small cartridge with Muriatic acid and rub it o a spot. If MA removes the staining, over a season it would be a lot cheaper to invest in an Underwater Acid Wand made by the same company and use small amounts of MA every 7-10 days when the staining returns - carefully, of course, as too much acid may harm the liner. Alternately, it might be best/safer to instead try with metal magic first...but the reduction in cost comes from direct area application instead of "whole water" sequestering...thereby saving the constant cycle of AA, followed by $100 worth of Jacks for a mere week of stain free living.

So, these tools are meant for acid, and meant for plaster pools but I have used both acid (lightly) on my old liner AND a mixture of small amounts of AA or Citric Acid with water on the small spot tool.

Here are links for review..the small tool: https://www.amazon.com/Purity-Pool-OS-Stain-Remover/dp/B004VLB3VE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494585224&sr=8-1&keywords=purity+pool

The big wand: https://www.amazon.com/Purity-Pool-UAW-Underwater-Acid/dp/B00C7UGLFY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494585311&sr=8-1&keywords=purity+pool+underwater+acid

If you read the metal magic sponge test, you will be now realize that sequestrant, at least ths brand, CAN remove fresh staining on direct contact. So perhaps doing the sponge test is a cheap way to find out if "direct application" is worth pursuing. If it lifts immediately with the sponge test, you'd then know that a wand application might nail it quickly enough. Side benefit is that you're still adding sequestrant to prevent accumulation.

If through this experiment you were to learn that eg. I bottle of MM at $17 3x a month, or a cup of AA, or less, or part of a jug (with caution!) removed the staining, would that improve the quality of you life and your relationship with the pool? If it would, it may be worth a try.

While experimenting with the "direct contact/preserve funds" approach, over time as the sequestrant level slowly drops, you might be able to find the place where a "lighter" treatment touch gets you by, and at the same time, test both sequestrant and iron levels weekly. If you approach it as a longer term experiment as opposed to a solution, I think it will help your frustration level.

I don't know if I'm articulating this well, but I'm just hopeful that you can take some solace in shifting approach.

This comes from a place where experience has, at times quite humorously, shown me that a binary solution approach will ultimately disappoint me.

For example, switched my water source to softened water one year..,and did decrease my iron ppm over the course of several seasons...so why was there still iron that had to be managed? Turns out, testing showed that my softener was exhausting itself on top ups and some raw water was getting in. So I upgraded to a dual softener. That helped. I was still getting trace copper. Well, my heat exchanger had corroded ;)

I also discovered that even softened water - through testing -- still in my case carried .5 ppm iron. So last year I started using a 10" reducing filter on spigot, which gets it down by another half.

Then due to liner change, I had brand new water trucked in for $1k. To my surprise and chagrin, within a month I was reading iron again. Discovered that mst salt used in SWG carries trace amounts of iron that can come out of solution during electrolysis. Discovered a corroding ladder. Also discovered that the stain that drove me the craziest was most likely coming from behind the liner during the liner change ;) But here I am, after running through winter, still spot cleaning my steps now with AA, and still (in a very reduced fashion) using sequestrant....which I will also need to treat once a season to prevent high volumes of built up spent sequestrant ;)

-- you get the idea here ;) In short, over 6 years of pool ownership on a well, I've come to learn that while ive made vast improvements in my metal management strategy, ultimately and ongoingly, it is still a work in progress...in my case, due to variables beyond my direct control such as well water.

In your case, I suspect your soil AND occasionally your source water, and yes, your salt, and the design of the structure with in-floor jets are contributing factors that may be difficult to suss out and ultimately control. For example, some municipalities use sequestrant, especially on runs that go through old iron pipes. The water coming out of the spigot can read no iron, but the oxidization and natural wear down of the sequestrant can a month later show iron as it comes out of solution ;)

So, the "why's" can drive you crazy. Try diect application/mitigation and see if it helps reduce your frustration, then slowly test over time to see what conclusions you can draw from combined consideration of factors. And pease kerp us updated. Whether you know it or not, ths thread and a chart of your progress will ultimately help others to come ;)
 
Swamwoman, thanks for the thoughtful response. I appreciate it.

I actually own the purity tool and have tried it with muriatic acid and although it lifted the stain, it was a slow process. After all, the liquid container is quite small, probably only about 8-10 ounces.

I guess I could try it with Metal Magic to see if it's any faster than muriatic acid. I also tried AA but in hindsight went about it wrong. I put AA powder in there with some water but it was just a mess. I should have diluted the AA in another jug and poured the diluted water into the purity tool container. I may try that again since I always have bags of AA around.
 
Another option that is easier and cheaper is to accept the stains, live with them and enjoy the pool and TFPC water. It is purely cosmetic and presents no issues with swimming and enjoying the pool. Every year we have folks with old, worn out plaster decide to give it one more year or two before replastering and just enjoy the pool in the meantime. Save the money and use it to pay for a new liner when the time comes. :)
 

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That was a "classic" Swampwoman post!! But I have to say I agree with all the sentiments - at some point you have to put down the shovel and stop digging. And I know how you feel; let me show you a picture -

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That's a step/ledge in my spa. Last spring (2016) I noticed a tiny, hairline crack in the rolled edge of the step and I pestered the plaster company for 5 months straight to come out and fix the crack (it was a warranty job and so I was lowest on the priority list). They finally came out last December and, upon hammer inspection it turned out to be a bubble behind the plaster. However, here's the kicker - the crack was not leaking at all, there was no water loss or impact on chemistry and so it was a purely cosmetic thing that most people couldn't notice even when I pointed it out to them directly. But, I went ahead and had the plaster company patch the spot.

Well, in my opinion, the patch looks far worse than the crack ever did! It went from being an 8" long, barely noticeable hairline crack to "Mr. Smiley Face". Now I guess I could have gone back at the plaster company and demanded they now rip out the spa plaster and redo the entire thing and I was frustrated and disappointed overall BUT, after some wise counsel from my wife, I decided that it was more important to enjoy the pool and have fun then chase down every little defect and problem. The pool and spa will someday be replastered and I'll be happy when I can finally get Brian Davis (bdavis466) to drive out here to Arizona and do an AquaBright coating for nothing more than a case of cold beers and some smoked meat products, but for now, we're just going to enjoy the pool.

I would take Kate's advice and try to find some balance between reasonable cost and stain mitigation/remediation and then just leave it at that. You have done far more work and analysis on this problem than any pool company would ever do and so I think you should just try to enjoy the pool as best you can.

Please keep this thread updated as you learn new information. Threads like these are vitally important for TFP in teaching people methods and techniques. What you have learned about your pool and the various tests you have posted so far will no doubt help many people going forward.

Best wishes,

Matt
 
I've been trying to decide if I should show you these. But I think it will provide some perspective. These are pics of my pool. I did the AA and drain. Drained right down to nothing. Refilled with city water. No iron present in any way. Turned on SWG and within 2 weeks this is what I got. Now it didn't get like this over night, but it hasn't gotten any worse, in fact, as it's been raining I think they are starting to lessen. I've decided that it's an interesting and ever changing pattern. It doesn't effect the water, as you can see, it's so dang clear that you can see all the tree stuff and leaves. When it gets warm enough we will be going in and swimming and floating and playing with the granddaughter when she visits. Would I prefer it to be white? Sure. Am I going to break the bank to get it that way? Na.
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One other thought for both of you -

After you do the AA treatment and the stains are lifted, have you ever tried stuffing the skimmer with some polyfill pillow stuffing (you can get it at any craft store)? What some people have tried doing is getting some cal-hypo chlorinating tablets and then putting the polyfill in the skimmer. You place a cal-hypo tablet on the polyfill and then direct all the suction to the skimmer and skim water on low speed. The combination of high pH and high FC localized in the skimmer and on low flow causes the iron to precipitate and is trapped in the polyfill.

That could be another trick to try to get rid of the iron after the AA has removed it.
 
I added another bottle of Jacks Purple stuff yesterday and the light staining has gone away for now. Fingers crossed. Oddly enough, my sequest kit is still showing between 10 and 12 ppm of sequestrant.

So right now, the pool looks great...

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Today, I decided to clean my cartridge filter after a 2 month run using Jack's Filter aid (looks like paper fiber) and the filter looked DISGUSTING. I've never seen this much crud on it. It took me a solid hour to get it clean.

Luckily, I keep a spare clean cartridge I can put back in the filter while I clean the dirty one.

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