Recurring Metal Stains... worse than ever...

[JoyfulNoise]

The filter aid stuff is usually cellulose fiber. Some places sell it as an alternative to DE. I do not like the stuff as it forms a thick goop which is not easily removed from a cartridge and, with long periods of time and high chlorine exposure, the stuff can harden up and completely plug up a filter. Jacks sells it as a means to capture scale (iron and calcium) but I'm not really sold on how effective it is.

I hope your stains stay away longer.

 

[carlos31820]

Ewwww! Maybe you washed some metal out with that goo! Pool looks great!

Yeah, I have no idea what that black coated sludge was but it came right off when I hit it with the high pressure hose nozzle.

 

[pabeader]

Fingers crossed for you, my comrade in arms.

 

[carlos31820]

Well the latest update is that even at a quart of Jacks Purple stuff per week, the stains are coming back.

Notice how pronounced the stain is on the underside of my wall returns. Almost like the stain is being sprayed back in the pool.

 

[carlos31820]

So I'm looking at the return jets get darker and darker. I'm really thinking that the salt cell is contributing to the metals falling out of solution.

I just noticed the inside of the SWG is now turning rust colored. I'm attaching a couple photos.

Notice that on the photo showing the base for the SWG cell, the inlet side is clean but the outlet side is stained.

 

[Flying Tivo]

I thought you said you had bypassed the SWG and were on the manual bleach.:uhh:

 

[carlos31820]

I thought you said you had bypassed the SWG and were on the manual bleach.:uhh:

I tried that as an experiment but if you follow the thread, you'll see that I found the stains returned as well.

Bottom line is that I still have more metal in my water than sequestrant even while burning thru a quart of sequestrant per week.

So what this is showing me is that the SWG may indeed make my problem worse. That being said, I also realize that the SWG is not the cause of the problem.

 

[carlos31820]

Here is some more iron stain sorcery with the wall return fittings. This is a bucket of water with some GLB Stain Magnet.

My stains are quite bad right now. I'm about to do the Proteam Metal Magic sponge test to find out how much Metal Magic I need to treat the stains in lieu of using Ascorbic Acid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A2vAi-fUF0

 

[Swampwoman]

Did you ever send pics to your mfg and see what they said? Seems like there's some pretty serious galvanic interaction going on.

Are all your returns the pop up type, or just the ones in the floor area? If not, what are your Normal returns like in comparison? I've found staining is always worse where there's agitation/force, likely because of higher ph in those specific locations.

What's your typical run time and percentage on your swg? I wonder if producing at a lower percentage over a longer period of time would help.

Also, what does your sequest test say re active level of sequestrant? If your generator is breaking the sequestrant down that quickly, I'd be inclined to send that info along to Jacks to see what they have to say about it Just a thought.

Keep us posted on whether MM is relatively effective over time. The formulation was acquired by proteam so there's a bit of an info dearth on breakdown time/expectation in swg with that one.

Speakng of phosphonic breakdown, and forgive me f you've previously written about this, but at any point have you used/tried an EDTA-based sequestrant?
I've not used any EDTA products myself because phosphonic based products have always worked for me, together with pre fiterng, using softened water, etc. But when I see someone in a swg-w-stains situation like yours, I wonder if EDTA metal sequestrants would at east last longer because the are reported not to break down in swg.

In the past, phosphonic-based sequestrants have been the gold standard for efficacy, but this migh be a case for a switch/experiment.

I'm posting an old article that suggests as much, though many elements of the article might be debatable Eg. They promote zinc (and yes, I personally do use a zinc anode) but there are respected opinions among forum guides that think anodes are not viable in pools for reasons too complex for me to adequately describe, etc.

Avoiding stains in salt chlorine pools - AQUA Magazine

 

[carlos31820]

Did you ever send pics to your mfg and see what they said? Seems like there's some pretty serious galvanic interaction going on.

I frankly have not taken the time to email Jandy about it. I suspect they'll just blow me off and claim something must be off with my water chemistry.

Are all your returns the pop up type, or just the ones in the floor area? If not, what are your Normal returns like in comparison? I've found staining is always worse where there's agitation/force, likely because of higher ph in those specific locations.

The return in the last video is what my wall returns look like. So in a sense, yes, they're all pop ups. The wall returns (there are 6 of them) pop out of the wall and point straight down (towards the main drain). The floor pop ups move clockwise 1/16 of a rotation every time they retract so they basically end up spraying in a 360 degree pattern every 16th time they pop up and down.

What's your typical run time and percentage on your swg? I wonder if producing at a lower percentage over a longer period of time would help.

I normally run my pump around 7-8 hours a day. The SWG is normally at either 40 or 60% (my swg can only be set in increments of 20% - 20, 40, 60, 80 or 100%).

Also, what does your sequest test say re active level of sequestrant? If your generator is breaking the sequestrant down that quickly, I'd be inclined to send that info along to Jacks to see what they have to say about it Just a thought.

Sequest kit seems to always show the sequestrant is between 10 and 15 ppm which seems low to me. I've even talked to the folks at Jacks' to make sure I'm doing the sequest test correctly because those numbers just seem low especially when putting in a full quart per week.

Keep us posted on whether MM is relatively effective over time. The formulation was acquired by proteam so there's a bit of an info dearth on breakdown time/expectation in swg with that one.

Speakng of phosphonic breakdown, and forgive me f you've previously written about this, but at any point have you used/tried an EDTA-based sequestrant?
I've not used any EDTA products myself because phosphonic based products have always worked for me, together with pre fiterng, using softened water, etc. But when I see someone in a swg-w-stains situation like yours, I wonder if EDTA metal sequestrants would at east last longer because the are reported not to break down in swg.

In the past, phosphonic-based sequestrants have been the gold standard for efficacy, but this migh be a case for a switch/experiment.

I think I've probably tried every metal product out there at one point or another. To be honest though, it also seems like the phosphonic products work better and as you know, one usually gets scolded on those forums if you don't use the "recommended" sequestrants.

I'll keep you posted on what I find with the Metal Magic approach. I've started keeping a pool journal to document what is going on over time, document my actions, and document what works and what doesn't.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The problem with EDTA sequestrants is they are not as effective at pool pH as phosphonic acid based ones AND the chlorine oxidation of EDTA yields monochloramine (that's how EDTA algaecides work because monochloramine is a good algaecide). So they tend to increase FC demand and cause higher levels of CCs.

 

[carlos31820]

Well, I'm feeling optimistic about doing a Metal Magic treatment. I just did the sponge test and the stain started to immediately lift so it looks like the 5 minute test was a success so I'll only need 1 quart of Metal Magic per 10K gallons.

I assume I should add Polyquat 60 to the water since the FC will be low at best.

Here are some photos of the Metal Magic sponge test.

45 seconds into the test...

2 1/2 minutes into the test...

4 1/2 minutes into the test...

After 5 minutes and removal of sponge...

Interestingly enough, I decided to test the bucket of water I used to clean all my stained pool fittings in yesterday and for the first time, the iron test registered .10 ppm iron.

 

[carlos31820]

So I ended up adding 3 quarts of Metal Magic to remove the stain but the staining was still quite pronounced in some areas so I added an additional quart of Metal Magic for a total of 4 quarts. The water is a little cloudy as expected but not terrible.

Here are some photos of the progress. Photos were taken 4 hours after beginning the Metal Magic treatment. All but some stubborn stains on the deep end wall have been lifted. The stubborn stains are greatly lightened so hopefully will lift in the next day or so.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Wow. Such a huge difference. The thing is, if you left it alone the staining is so evenly spread that it looks purposeful. LIke you *wanted* that color green/blue liner.

Maddie

 

[carlos31820]

Wow. Such a huge difference. The thing is, if you left it alone the staining is so evenly spread that it looks purposeful. LIke you *wanted* that color green/blue liner.

Maddie

I'm not that lucky, Maddie.

That would only work if it the staining was evenly spread throughout the liner. The stains are very streaky in the deep end wall slopes.

The vertical surfaces are usually stain free so you can really notice the stains elsewhere.

 

[Swampwoman]

I'm glad at least the MM is saving you on the AA pita...now here's hoping it lasts a bit

Just so you know, much to proteams surprise when I talked to their tech, I used to apply the MM without dropping FC and ergo not adding polyquat 60 It still worked just fine.

One more thought...use that pool tool spot remover on the residual areas with some mm in it if you have any left

Btw, you are defying science here... 0.1 ppm iron is really not supposed to stain...more like 0.3 ppm. I am still suspicious that there is another variable at work...connected to electrolysis or agitation by the rotating returns or something different from normal. Iron does come out of solution in industrial settings when the agitate it and add oxygen...

I'm just sorry i cant figure out WHAT that variable is.

Let me know if you ever want to do a "true"/extended iron reading attempt. I looked up Ben's of bucket test instructions...they're a bit more detailed than what you previously tried...requiring several days, two buckets, and adding washing soda etc. after the chlorine oxidation and covering.

 

[carlos31820]

I'm glad at least the MM is saving you on the AA pita...now here's hoping it lasts a bit

Just so you know, much to proteams surprise when I talked to their tech, I used to apply the MM without dropping FC and ergo not adding polyquat 60 It still worked just fine.

One more thought...use that pool tool spot remover on the residual areas with some mm in it if you have any left

Yes, this is definitely a much easier approach and it saves me from having to buy a stain remover on top of the sequestrant.

And MM is cheaper than Jacks purple stuff.

I tested the water about 4 hours after the treatment and was pleasantly surprised to see that the FC was not depleted.

 

[Chemnut]

Just curious, I had huge metal issues. I tried white cotton socks in my skimmers. The metals seem to be attracted to them. Going on two years now with minimal stains on returns.

 

[carlos31820]

Just curious, I had huge metal issues. I tried white cotton socks in my skimmers. The metals seem to be attracted to them. Going on two years now with minimal stains on returns.

Was your iron visible in the water (brown water?). My water is always perfectly clear but I get staining on the surfaces.

 

[carlos31820]

Well, it's only been 3 days since the Metal Magic treatment but so far, so good. I'm hoping that using a weekly dose of Metal Magic alone will keep the stains at bay.

Looks like I can buy it on Amazon Prime for $15 per bottle so even if I have to use half a bottle or a bottle a week, the expense is manageable. I also love that it can lift the staining without affecting the FC the way ascorbic acid does.