Poor man's IntelliChem

[Newdude]

Remember this is an open board that MANY people read. So even if we know YOU won't drink out of it we will say what is best practices to keep anyone else from harm down the road

Or someone that has 5 year old kids playing in their shed or wherever and don’t know better.

 

[TexEdmond]

Or someone that has 5 year old kids playing in their shed or wherever and don’t know better.

Yeah... as that 5 year old kid playing in the shed in a previous life... I'm amazed I've still got all my fingers and toes. Time to throw away an old "sports drank" bottle.

But honestly... if the internet has gone so far off the rails we've got to go around telling grown ups not to inject bleach and lysol into their lungs... or not to shoot up fish tank cleaner and horse dewormers... or put fireworks launchers on their heads... or string 120v lights across the pool... or smoke cigarettes... at some point it simply has to become "the bottom of the food chain." Stupid ain't illegal, but it's often a quick way to remove oneself from the gene pool.

Ooh: another one - High dosage Vitamin C: Great for getting rust stains out of pool surfaces. Not so great for curing cancer.

 

[TexEdmond]

I'm using water to test in these photos.

Tighten lid and place siphon tube in position near the return. Above or below water line will work.

Two ways to start siphon:

1.) tilt bottle while holding snorkel tube above cap until steady stream of fluid travels down siphon tube. This seems less safe?

2.) Pinch snorkel tube and squeeze bottle until siphon begins. Release snorkel once siphon begins to prevent vapor escaping thru snorkel.

To stop siphon, either:

1.) Lift the end of the siphon tube out of the pool above the cap and let acid flow back into the bottle. Some vapor will escape thru snorkel tube. Seems less safe.

2.) Unscrew cap / bottle and lift siphon tube out of acid level in bottle. Tube will drain itself.

Immediately re-cap acid bottle with intact cap.

Cleanup: drop tube and cap into pool, submerge to fill with pool water / dilute remnant acid.

Next time I need a pH change I'll post back with results.

 

[TexEdmond]

SWEET! I bet that does push it up and fast!

I thought it would too. 12 hours after dosing and continual aeration, I'm still at 7.2. TA was up to 80 after a ~600gal fill yesterday, now sitting right on 70.

Is it time to add some 20 Mule Borax to bring the pH back up? Honestly, that calculation I did earlier of the CSI wishlist is exactly what I'm hoping for, slightly negative for SCG longevity and having "pinched" my pH rise between a slightly higher CH and lowered alkalinity / borates. I don't know if it can get much better than that.

 

[mknauss]

Is it time to add some 20 Mule Borax to bring the pH back up?

No need to raise pH chemically. It will rise on its own.

 

[TexEdmond]

Understood. I have 20 Mule borax in the laundry room. Anything wrong with slowly adding some now while pH is low? Otherwise I'd need to wait til pH was 7.6-7.8 then add the borax then add acid to bring the pH back down. Just trying to be economical here on the chems.

 

[mknauss]

Why? You complain about your TA, but then wish to add something that adds TA, albeit not alot, when you do not need to.

 

[TexEdmond]

Why?

Because it's my understanding reading here from several prominent members and on the wiki that borates help buffer against pH rise, contribute to longterm SCG plate health, make the pool water more resistant to algae at lower FC levels, and further add to the silky feel and sparkle of the water. Folks have mentioned a significant decrease in chemical (specifically MA) usage, and I want that in my life. Plus, it seems like a fun challenge.

You complain about your TA

That's an interesting statement, and I'm not sure I'm okay with its wording. I wonder if we're even having an effective conversation right now, or if I should go work on something more worthwhile like clean out the attic. To be fair, I'm complaining about how much muriatic acid I'm putting in my pool and searching for a more stable chemistry situation that several other users have recently posted and raved about. I'm here asking questions from folks that know more about the situation than I do, specifically if adding that chemical is the next right action in the overall plan. I guess to me complaining involves some sort of "not taking action to right the situation." I suppose it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. I've noticed my TA is stubbornly high. I am certainly frustrated with my pool being at a pH of 8.0 or higher every few days, because with the other chemicals at their current levels, I know that's not good long-term for scaling in my pool or in my SCG. My pool is large enough that it takes quite a bit of acid every few days to knock that CSI back in line, and I'm hoping for an easier solution. If this doesn't work, then I suppose that's the level of maintenance it's going to take for the pool to stay as good as it can get, and I'll be okay with it. It's already beyond my wildest dreams better, why not reach for the brass ring?

but then wish to add something that adds TA

It's my understanding the whole reason to use borates with lowered TA is to keep pH from rapidly increasing, which I've experienced for the last 3 weeks.

when you do not need to.

Of course, you're right. I spent the time to research it and decided it's worth a try. I didn't need to install the SCG, or quit putting trichlor in my pool either, but it was apparent that was the next right thing to do.

 

[Mdragger88]

Or someone that has 5 year old kids playing in their shed or wherever and don’t know better.

This My nephew drank roundup concentrate once that was in an old lipton tea bottle on a shelf in the shop- it was marked, he was a teenager, he just happened to pick up the wrong bottle & didn’t look as he had sat his tea bottle on a different shelf.
Luckily he spit it out immediately & didn’t ingest any. Stuff happens.

 

[TexEdmond]

My nephew drank roundup concentrate once that was in an old lipton tea bottle

Oof. Back in the good ol days before GPS crop-dusting technology, I always wondered what life looked like for the poor dude with the long stick standing at the end of the cotton rows marking where the plane should fly next... Death by a thousand cuts maybe instead of drinking straight from the source.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So obviously this thread has taken a life of its own. You started off with a homemade acid feeder invention, which is great, but many of us have lots of years of experience at this “pool thing” and so we often look beyond the post and ask the question “ Why?” . It would have been nice to know up front that you’re lowering TA and that your fill water has horrible alkalinity. That’s actually very relevant information.

So let me ruin your day for you and be the bearer of bad news … you are NEVER going to have stable pH and you will ALWAYS be adding acid to your pool. Borates won’t work for you (unless you’re really into the “silky feel”).

With over 200ppm TA, your fill water is going to drive up your pH. Unless you figure out a way to cover your pool and completely stop all evaporation, your pH will always climb (as will your TA). Sorry, it ain’t your fault, it’s just chemistry.

My suggestion would be to invest in an acid dosing system (a real one) and to try to target TA control. In other words, dose acid at a rate that keeps your TA around 70-80ppm or so and let the pH be whatever it will be. That’s about all you can do when TA is that high for fill water … or move out of Texas …

 

[TexEdmond]

So let me ruin your day for you and be the bearer of bad news …

You kidding?! That's the best news I've gotten all day! Thank you for your knowledge. Now I don't have to go insane trying to make something work that won't ever work.

Unless you figure out a way to cover your pool and completely stop all evaporation

I'm waaayyyy too lazy to try that. Just lazy enough to spend my time building goofy homemade acid dosing systems. But I did also get the TV hung outside and the pool filters changed and the attic cleaned out too. So maybe I'm not all that lazy after all?

My suggestion would be to invest in an acid dosing system (a real one)

Righteous. I'm pretty well married to Pentair because my pool brains has a menu item for IntelliChem. Is that a good enough solution, given my preference for things that'll communicate with the brains and be easy to set up?

let the pH be whatever it will be.

Silly question, so bear with me: I'm looking at the CSI calculator for these strategic moves. I'm totally happy with everything else in the pool where it is. If I had an automated system that kept TA around 70-80, and it didn't matter if I did borates for the pH control in the pool itself, wouldn't it still make sense to do because of the slightly negative kick it gives the CSI, and it'd be a good idea to do for the overall health of the SCG?

 

[TexEdmond]

or move out of Texas

Oklahoma. But the point is well taken. We left Texas in 2013. We'll go wherever the next move takes us, because when it's time, it'll be apparent that's the next right thing to do.

Edit: Woot 200 posts! I'm blown away at all of you staffers and volunteers with tens of thousands of posts. Seriously, thank you all so much. Especially you and Marty. You really are a well oiled machine helping people here.

 

[TexEdmond]

Maybe it's true what they say about
Maybe we can't make the chems meet
Maybe we'll all keep the acid out
Maybe this world's just incomplete

Well, we all look for truth in this life
Searching with hope inside
If it's so hard borating in a well water world
We all do the best that we can

Some have a TA change
Some will remain the same
Others will live their lives under the gun
Some see their water's clear
Some say the end is here
They say it's a hopeless fight
But I say I gotta try now
Oh, I've got to try, baby

 

[kimkats]

Need more emojis for this one!

 

[TexEdmond]

I have what seems to be a simple question to ask folks who know about pool chemistry. I'd appreciate a straighforward answer, even if that straightforward answer is "No, that's not the right thing to do, because there's this other factor you're not considering." or even "Well, it's complicated. Help me understand better by giving me more information."

It's come to my attention that I have fill water issues that'll never give me the full benefit of borates to keep my pH rising over time. I'm at a place where there's no more big moves to make on my water chemistry that I can see. I'll start looking for solutions to do automatic dosing for future TA control. In the interim, I'll manually dose the pool with MA like I've been doing to keep my CSI slightly negative. This is my only lingering longterm issue that I see there's a possible solution for to keep my SWCG protected and functioning at its best.

When I use the PoolMath app CSI calculator, I notice the following based on tonight's test:
pH: 7.8
TA: 70
CH: 400
CYA: 70
Temp: 86
Salt: 3750
CSI: -0.01

When my pH rises to 8.0, probably in the next few days, CSI will be 0.18. We're going out of town on Wednesday, and if pH rises to 8.2 like it's done previously, CSI will be 0.38. I know it's just for a few days, but I've read people post here saying they've "religiously" watched CSI, kept it slightly negative, and not had to descale their SWCG for 3+ years. I want this in my life. So, here's my question:

I need to understand better why it's a bad idea for me to add borates to my pool. Can somebody help me?

If I were to have 50ppm of borates in the pool, I'd be in a markedly better situation at -0.13 CSI @ pH 7.8. If the pH rose to 8.2, my CSI would be 0.00. If I lowered it to 7.6, I'd be at CSI -0.27 and it'd only take 26oz of muriatic acid. This is a glorious place to be, especially if I do invest in a MA pump to slowly add acid automatically, but yeesh, why would I bother if I was in that situation?! Even if it meant a little bit of work over a few days to get the chemical dissolved and the pH back down, that work seems worth it if the regular state of the pool was perfectly balanced for the SWCG with respect to CSI across the 7.6-8.2 pH range. PoolMath says 84lbs of borax 20 mule would raise my TA by 103ppm, which is offset by 5 gallons of MA. It's a good thing I know a guy that just came up with an easy, safe plan for slowly adding whole jugs of MA slowly one at a time to the pool....

What have I not considered? I'm thinking of this as: "Is it worth it to spend $100 on borax and $26 on muriatic acid to create a pool chemistry that's nearly 100% safe for my SCG?"

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You can certainly add borates to your pool water and you might see a slight buffering effect on pH even though your fill water TA is extremely high, just set your expectations to “Low” because it’s not going to be super-dramatic. And yes, it will help slightly in keeping your CSI more negative.

I would suggest you forget about borax and buy boric acid instead. It is much much easier to use boric acid as it dissolves quickly and is a weak acid so there will be no rise in pH when you add. You can add the entire dose at once and it will quickly dissolve with a little bit of brushing. Borax was the traditional method of adding borates because it was easy to obtain and it could be used for raising pH. Nowadays, boric acid is easily procured in large quantities and you don’t need to raise your pH.

 

[TexEdmond]

Thanks for helping me understand better, and I really appreciate the tip for the different chemical.

 

[TexEdmond]

And then I can get back to religiously... watching CSI.

*YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!*

 

[setsailsoon]

Years ago I had the "too many acid additions" problem you're experiencing and just wanted it to go away. After getting bleary-eyed reading about the buffer chemistry and other posts from @JoyfulNoise I lowered my TA to 50. It would have been much easier to just do this first instead of trying to go one notch above my capability with chemistry. The lower TA helped but not enough. So then Matt suggested I consider borates. I used boric acid from Dudadiesel as Matt recommended and it was a piece of cake. This helped a LOT. Not sure it really reduced acid consumption but did definitely reduce the frequency at first then over time it did seem to reduce the amount also. But the borate test strip was as useless for me as any other test strip. Matt to the rescue again with his nifty adder of a couple reagents to TF100 that creates a drop test for borates. Fantastic! I never noticed any other benefit from boric acid other than the pH buffering. But that was all I wanted anyway. Along the way I discovered there's no alchemists dream for eliminating pH rise from pools in contact with air. But there are ways to make it easier to deal with. I believe Matt thinks hes perfectly normal but we all know he is definitely a little weird. Sometimes people have to be a little weird to be good at what they do. I'm sure glad we have Matt here... weirdness and all!

Chris