Pool Light Electrical Conduit

[Ds3161]

In another thread I asked about the pool plumbing spaghetti that was done for my pool. I'm now wanting to focus a question on the conduit used for the lights. All 5 lights are Pentair GloBrites (3 pool lights, two bubbler lights). Attached you'll see pictures of the plumbing showing the use of schedule 40 pipe for the pool light conduit as well as them having several short 90 degree bend fittings. Additionally, you'll see the niche sticking out of the gunite which I thought should be cut flush to the gunite per the GloBrite installation manual. These niches have the light installed in them already with wire emerging at the (future) equipment pad.

I have watched some videos and seen on here that this could have several problems.
1) Pulling wire will be almost impossible making the GloBrites extremely difficult to service. Is pulling wire going to be impossible or near impossible? If I can't pull wire, how would the lights ever be serviced? wire splicing seems like an incredibly bad idea. Should the plumber have used actual electrical conduit and done heat bending like I have seen in several pics/videos?
2) Should these 2" PVC niches have been cut flush to the gunite pool shell already? Or is that something the plaster guys would typically do? Is this even possible with the light already being installed in the niche?

As I mentioned in the other thread, concrete prep work including filling/backfilling these trenches is starting next week and I don't know if I should halt everything and have this redone (PB already thinks it is fine, so it may be a fight to do so) or if I'm stuck with it.

 

[darkrider]

GloBrites already have a bad reputation for preamaturely burning out, and those PVC bends are going to make replacements almost impossible to install! Schedule 80 PVC for electrical is thicker walled and more durable, but I'm not aware of anything that prohibits the use of Schedule 40. Your real problem is the 90 degree bends vs sweeps. The niche/light install prior to plaster is going to put more pressure on the plaster crew to get it flush, and the 2" wall gap seems excessive. How thick is your tile? My PB capped the pipes and only installed my nicheless lights after plaster.

 

[Ds3161]

The waterline tile plus the mortar buildup is only like 1/2" tops. PB now says he'll fix the one sticking out 2" after I called him out and sent him the picture with the measurement, but he is claiming the other two which stick out 3/4"-1" is fine and I just can't see how that would be without mounding up the plaster around the light vs the rest of the wall.

It did seem odd to me to install the lights before the plaster. Before filling the pool to cure sure, but not before plaster. Though the install manual seems to imply it is ok to do it that way.

PB is claiming we can still pull wire if the lights need replaced in the future but I have my doubts.

 

[ajw22]

PB is claiming we can still pull wire if the lights need replaced in the future but I have my doubts.

NEC says light conduits can have a maximum of 360 degrees of turns between junction boxes. That is a max of four 90's.

As long as you have four 90's or less then wire pulls should not be a problem. There is wire cable lube to help the effort.

 

[BMerrill]

Electrical conduit is Gary in color and its properties differs some from white PVC used for water/wastewater applications.
Water pipe 90's should never be used on electrical PVC conduit, way to tight of a bend for pulling wire. Instead use the electrical sweeps which have a much larger radius and sold in the electrical isle in the home improvement store.
As an alternate, 1" PVC conduit can be bent by heating. There are heat boxes made for this purpose. The economic version is the $15 heat gun from the HF.
No more than a total of 360 degrees before a junction box/ hand hole is required.
The portion of the electrical conduit in the ground and/or below the top of the coping must be water tight.
If the PB says he can replace a light, them have him take one out. But now is the time to correct this.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Heat bends are most common that I see on job sites.
These lights are 1” from flush.

 

[Foxer]

My lights were about 1/2 to 5/8" from the gunite, and I also installed the microbrites prior to the plaster.

 

[Ds3161]

Thanks everyone for the responses. This is very useful information. I'm about to go count some 90 degree bends.

 

[1poolman1]

Thanks everyone for the responses. This is very useful information. I'm about to go count some 90 degree bends.

An old electrician once told me, "God and and act of Congress can't pull wire past 3 bends." And he was taking about sweeps, not hard 90's. While there are pulling machines that might be able to now (was told that in the late 70's), the cord on your lights would never be able to hold up to the strain. Even a good electrical "fish tape" would probably get stuck in that installation.

They just used what was on hand, apparently. Actual electrical conduit and sweeps costs more than already expensive water schedule 40 PVC.

 

[Ds3161]

I count more than one of the electrical run with five 90 degree bends. @ajw22 I couldn't find the NEC code about bends. Do you happen to know the article/section that is in?

Update: I called the county inspector and they said not only should there not have been ANY 90 degree bends for electrical conduit, but that the PB has not pulled any permits for anything past the gunite shell. And the PB was ready to cover all this next week. County inspector is coming out tomorrow morning to go over all this with me and see it for themselves and has offered to help me talk to the PB about any corrections that have to be done. So I at least have that in my favor.

 

[Toxophilite]

I can tell you how they got those cables through 5 90's like that, they built the pipe run and wire run at the same time. Otherwise, no way they taped and pulled it through, and if you opened them up, I bet you will find primer and glue all over the cable. Congrats on getting that inspector on board.

 

[JamesW]

358.26 Bends — Number in One Run. “There shall not be more than the equivalent of four quarter bends (360 degrees total) between pull points, for example, conduit bodies and boxes.”

For conduits with an internal diameter of 2 inches or less, the inside radius of a bend in conduit shall be at least 6 times the internal diameter.

 

[JamesW]

 

[darkrider]

It sucks that you have to bring the inspectors in to get him to correct the issues, but it will certainly be better in the long run, since you'll be living with the pool long after the PB is gone.

 

[Bill1974]

I am sure there is something in the NEC that prohibits running electrical wire is pipe/conduits/etc that is not explicitly listed for that purpose. I don't think there are hard 90° pvc conduit bends (other than pull boxes), they are all sweeps. Also pulling jacketed cable (SJXXX) through conduit is tougher than pulling THHN or THWN wire though conduit.

When all fixes have been made, pressure check the conduit (5 psi should be more than enough) and make sure all pull boxes are 8+ inches above the highest water level possible (pool over flowing).

PVC conduit may have something in it that makes it self extinguishing and also be protected from UV light. Also PVC conduit is not pressure tested.

To make pulling wire easier, chamfering the inside of the joints helps. Chamfering the outside also helps make a better joint too. I try to run conduit so the bell end is the side that wire will likely be pulled from. Generally there is less of an end to get hung up on if the insides of the pipe are not chamfered.

 

[SoDel]

I am sure there is something in the NEC that prohibits running electrical wire is pipe/conduits/etc that is not explicitly listed for that purpose. I don't think there are hard 90° pvc conduit bends (other than pull boxes), they are all sweeps.

Looks like you’re exactly right. NEC Article 352. The RNC, elbows and associated fittings must be listed.

Article 352 Rigid Nonmetallic Conduit Type RNC | Wiring Methods and Materials

Article 352 Rigid Nonmetallic Conduit Type RNC / Wiring Methods and Materials from Pocket Guide to the National Electrical Code 2005

flylib.com

Another thought comes to mind that the wiring is being used for a pool, a heightened safety hazard, and the builder should not be jerking around with unlisted water pipe and fittings for the wiring. Maybe that will appeal to the electrical inspector? I would not want to be the one to sign off on that job.

 

[Ds3161]

Update: County inspector came out Friday.
Problem #1: The PB has not pulled a permit for any of the work beyond the gunite shell itself.
Problem #2: PB's contractor violated multiple NEC codes with the low voltage conduit
Problem #3: Inspector said the plumbing itself is unacceptable

Inspector was going to call the PB on Friday and I have not yet heard back on the result. I have decided regardless to halt all further work until this is done/redone to my satisfaction (fix plumbing to be run side by side and supported on bottom of trench and swap out all 90 degree fittings for water plumbing to be 45s, use proper electrical conduit with large sweeping bends instead of fittings and laid neatly on top of water pipes, not weaved throughout). Either this PB agrees to do it correctly and professionally or I will hire someone new and deal with the fallout in arbitration. Since I have the county inspector backing me up, I don't think the PB would fight me on this. But we will see. Either way I'm looking at a big delay.

 

[1poolman1]

Update: County inspector came out Friday.
Problem #1: The PB has not pulled a permit for any of the work beyond the gunite shell itself.
Problem #2: PB's contractor violated multiple NEC codes with the low voltage conduit
Problem #3: Inspector said the plumbing itself is unacceptable

Inspector was going to call the PB on Friday and I have not yet heard back on the result. I have decided regardless to halt all further work until this is done/redone to my satisfaction (fix plumbing to be run side by side and supported on bottom of trench and swap out all 90 degree fittings for water plumbing to be 45s, use proper electrical conduit with large sweeping bends instead of fittings and laid neatly on top of water pipes, not weaved throughout). Either this PB agrees to do it correctly and professionally or I will hire someone new and deal with the fallout in arbitration. Since I have the county inspector backing me up, I don't think the PB would fight me on this. But we will see. Either way I'm looking at a big delay.

Be careful about putting 45s underground. Ask virtually any leak detection/repair company and they will tell the vast majority of leaks at underground fittings are at 45s.

 

[JamesW]

Sweep 90s would be better than using two 45s.

 

[Bill1974]

Not to divert the thread, but why are 45's more likely to a leak sources? I understand that sweeps are the ideal.