Pool Contract - Pool Builder's Repetitive Mistakes

[Aquaholic1]

Mess is part of construction. You never want to see the way sausage is made.

Allen,
I have...I slaughtered my own piggy. JK No, I'm talking about mess as in every step has been a cluster. lol

 

[ajw22]

Well then you should be able to slaughter the Pool Builder if he does not build to your specifications.

You somehow learned how to make the sausage. You need to review the specifications of what will be done each step before it is done with the Pool Builder. This is what is done In commercial construction but rarely in residential construction.

If you want things a certain way you need to specify it.

 

[Aquaholic1]

Well then you should be able to slaughter the Pool Builder if he does not build to your specifications.

You somehow learned how to make the sausage. You need to review the specifications of what will be done each step before it is done with the Pool Builder. This is what is done In commercial construction but rarely in residential construction.

If you want things a certain way you need to specify it.

ajw22,
I'm really not a diva nor do I expect perfect because we're all human. However, my expectations are for the project to be done correctly. So far, we've had many many setbacks due to continuous mistakes that I've caught that they tried to just cover up and move on. At what point do you draw the line? Unfortunately, they have broken our trust. We don't expect perfect out of any PB whatsoever. We just want things done the right way. We hired someone so that we wouldn't have to supervise. Does that make sense?

 

[Dirk]

Dirk
Take a look at my thread this morning and let me know your thoughts. I think I'm about to scream. May the Shenanigan's continue....Ugh!

OK, now I see some real problems. I won't chime in on how the tile is supposed to look, as that's well beyond my know-how (though it sure doesn't look right, I agree). But I can add this. When my pool got destroyed by a contractor, he had contracted work to finish. My confidence in him was shot, obviously. I knew, legally, that I had to give him an opportunity to correct the damage, but I certainly didn't want him to do it. I had a meeting with him, and exchanged many letters, etc. I documented it all here, somewhere. But key to the exchanges, and my ultimate "victory" was from getting a third party involved. I engaged a plaster contractor, and asked him to evaluate the damage, and provide an estimate for repair. This was the foundation of my exchanges with the original contractor. And ultimately the second contractor fixed the pool.

But before you go off on this guy, get your ducks in a row. You're getting some good advice here, and it sounds like you're doing your documentation. If you end up convinced that the work is defective, the next step is to decide if you want your contractor to address the issues and if you trust him to do so. If not, then the search for a replacement should begin. But this is where you have to be smart about it. You should have at least one replacement contractor lined up, locked in, before you confront your contractor and even mention anything about replacing him, let alone actually firing him. That is a last resort, because that may or may not be easy. So keep your emotions in check. Other contractors may be reluctant to take over another's work (I certainly wouldn't do it), especially with such a complicated pool. And even more reluctant to advise you about construction defects in the context of using their advice in a potential lawsuit. These guys all work in the same town, they use a lot of the same material suppliers, the same subcontractors, etc. They can't afford a bad "rep." Deciding to fire your current contractor before you have someone else locked in might leave that pool languishing unfinished for who-knows-how-long, months, if not years.

Have a conversation with your contractor about the tile and its installation (past and future). Have a witness present, someone not related/married to you. Have that person take notes. Follow up the conversation with an email that captures everything that was said (from the notes). Keep your cool. Ask questions, don't offer a lot of opinions. Don't mention your research here. Don't mention anything about replacing him or firing him. If, by chance, he leads the conversation anywhere in that direction, or anywhere else that feels uncomfortable, have a stock answer at the ready, like "Gee, this is a lot to take in. I'll need to talk this over with the spouse." Next steps will be determined based on what you learn here about the tile installation, and that meeting. We can discuss what happens after that, after that.

Important enough to say twice: keep your cool with this guy. You're both holding cards, but your hand is weak right now. There is a way through, but how difficult it's going to be is going to depend on you, and your strategy going forward. As Kim says, we're here for ya...

 

[ajw22]

ajw22,
I'm really not a diva nor do I expect perfect because we're all human. However, my expectations are for the project to be done correctly. So far, we've had many many setbacks due to continuous mistakes that I've caught that they tried to just cover up and move on. At what point do you draw the line? Unfortunately, they have broken our trust. We don't expect perfect out of any PB whatsoever. We just want things done the right way. We hired someone so that we wouldn't have to supervise. Does that make sense?

Trust but verify, someone famous said.

There is the Builders “right way” and your “right way”. Clearly the builders way is not acceptable to you. He has his ways and you hired him. As @Dirk is suggesting you and the builder need to communicate on what will be the “right way” for your project.

So far it looks like the builder is correcting the problems. Just keep on going down that path with good communication and little emotion. You are better off then folks whose builders have walked off the jobs leaving the problems behind.

 

[Dirk]

By the way, I should point out another potential problem for you, because you seem to be relying on it a lot, and I have some experience with that, too. The notion that you're "protected" somehow because you're paying with a credit card is not a given. If it's going to be anything like my experience with VISA, then you don't just get to say "OK, I don't want to pay," and the charges magically go away. For the following, I'll assume it's VISA, but I'd be surprised, if it's some other CC company, that it will be any different.

Firstly: VISA gets the transaction, and they sit on it a while and eventually they pay the vendor. This may or may not be before you get your bill and pay it. But once the vendor gets paid, that's pretty much it. Even if you later dispute the charge, if the vendor has been paid, VISA would be in the same boat as you trying to get money back from the vendor. I'm sure VISA has a killer legal department, but they're not going to put that at your disposal.

Secondly, especially with transactions of large amounts: VISA doesn't just stop payment, and refund your money, based on your word. A dispute is initiated, then VISA evaluates it. They get your side (and your documentation), then get the vendors side, then decide if the dispute is valid, and ultimately if they're going to stop payment or not. Then they inform you. But again, if the dispute process resolves only after the vendor has been paid, VISA can't (or won't) do much about it.

So you can do some additional research about this (in fact, you should), or call VISA directly, to get ahead of this, and learn more about the process, but if your contractor has already received funds from some of the VISA charges, I'm pretty sure those funds are as good as gone. And if there is a portion of funds that are still "in limbo," even if you open a dispute today, there is no guarantee that you're going to get those charges cancelled.

I disputed a VISA charge once (somewhere in the $3K range) because a moving company didn't move everything that I contracted them to move! It was cut'n'dry. Clearly they were at fault. Even their own contract was crystal clear on the point. The dispute took months, and was ultimately denied. This, after I got several assurances from VISA operatives that I was in the right and there would be no problem getting the charges reversed. Uh, not. VISA is not going to go to court for you. And they are certainly not going to eat, what, $200K for you. Not $20K. Probably not even $2K. I can't imagine it's going to work like that. I'm just sharing my experience with you, and I hope I'm wrong, but I want to encourage you to look into this some, so that you're not relying on something that might not, or flat out isn't, going to happen.

Sorry.

BTW, if it helps, I won that case, too! But that's a tale for another time...

 

[kimkats]

My advice is very close to everyone else-sit down with the PB with some one else there for you. Show him the pic Jim shared of how tile should be done as well as the list of proper materials also shared. Tell him you would like another tile installed on the job that can/will use the proper materials and techniques to install the new tile so the PB is not out any more money or time.

Is there any way to get ahold of the owner of the company the PB works for?

 

[Dirk]

My advice is very close to everyone else-sit down with the PB with some one else there for you. Show him the pic Jim shared of how tile should be done as well as the list of proper materials also shared. Tell him you would like another tile installed on the job that can/will use the proper materials and techniques to install the new tile so the PB is not out any more money or time.

Is there any way to get ahold of the owner of the company the PB works for?

I just want to repeat some of the advice I gave earlier, the part about not sharing what you learned here at TFP with the contractor. It's fine to present pictures or diagrams, but they can't in any way lead your contractor back to TFP. You're "spilling your guts" here, and talking about litigation and firing him, etc. Uh, imagine what's going to happen to your relationship with your contractor if he finds this thread. You're anonymous username won't protect you now that you've been posting pictures...

 

[Newdude]

Or even worse. Telling him 'well I read on the internet'........ regardless if you are right or not that's the quickest way to be dismissed.

 

[Aquaholic1]

Thanks to all of your advice. My question is....at what point enough is enough? Surely he can't go on making mistakes and then some day he'll fix them. There has to be some kind of time period. We have communicated with him multiple times and it's nothing but excuse after excuse. Anyone that sees the think set would know this is not the right way.
Kim-he is the "owner of the company". I'm not asking for perfect by any means. I just want this project done the correct way it's supposed to be.

 

[Aquaholic1]

Or even worse. Telling him 'well I read on the internet'........ regardless if you are right or not that's the quickest way to be dismissed.

Absolutely I wouldn't do that. You can read anything on the internet whether it be correct or incorrect.

 

[ajw22]

My question is....at what point enough is enough?

As long as he is willing to keep on working to "make it right" you have to let him. No more money to him until he delivers satisfactory work.

Unfortunately your options are limited. As Dirk explained your CC will not give you the protection you think you have. If you fire the PB you will find it difficult to find anyone who will take a half done project and finish it. You can become your own General Contractor and hire and supervise the various trades to finish it. That may be more or less work then digging in and working with your builder.

Any legal remedy will take years while you have a torn up property. The amount is probably too large for small claims court. And much of what you collect, if anything, will go to your lawyer. That assumes you can find a lawyer who thinks you have a winnable and collectable case to take it on.

So as long as your builder is willing to work keep him going. Unless you are ready and willing to take the project on to manage yourself.

 

[Dirk]

As long as he is willing to keep on working to "make it right" you have to let him. No more money to him until he delivers satisfactory work.

Unfortunately your options are limited. As Dirk explained your CC will not give you the protection you think you have. If you fire the PB you will find it difficult to find anyone who will take a half done project and finish it. You can become your own General Contractor and hire and supervise the various trades to finish it. That may be more or less work then digging in and working with your builder.

Any legal remedy will take years while you have a torn up property. The amount is probably too large for small claims court. And much of what you collect, if anything, will go to your lawyer. That assumes you can find a lawyer who thinks you have a winnable and collectable case to take it on.

So as long as your builder is willing to work keep him going. Unless you are ready and willing to take the project on to manage yourself.

Perfectly explained!

Thanks to all of your advice. My question is....at what point enough is enough? Surely he can't go on making mistakes and then some day he'll fix them. There has to be some kind of time period. We have communicated with him multiple times and it's nothing but excuse after excuse. Anyone that sees the think set would know this is not the right way.
Kim-he is the "owner of the company". I'm not asking for perfect by any means. I just want this project done the correct way it's supposed to be.

A little more devil's advocate... He's at the mercy of his sub's as much as you are at his! He hires these guys, expecting quality work on time, and without a lot of managing by him. And like you, he's not getting what he's paying for. Now I'm not excusing him not watching what's going on, that is his job. But there was a problem and he got the sub to make it right. That is also his job, which he seems to be doing.

I am totally sympathizing with your plight, but as Allen points out, alternatives could be as bad or worse (much worse) as your current situation. And even if you fire him, and by some miracle find a contractor willing to take over a difficult build, there's no guarantee that the new guy is going to be better. He could be worse (much worse), and/or hire some of the same knucklehead sub's. As long as he's willing to make things right, he's not really violating any laws or the contract. Litigation, or a legitimate reason to fire him, could be deemed reasonable only after he stops making things right.

When is enough enough? When you've had enough. But think it through...

 

[Newdude]

My question is....at what point enough is enough?

The answer has been repeated many times above but overshadowed with the TONs of other great info so here it goes, short and sweet.

Sit down with him
Have a polite but *firm* chat.
Come to an agreement on what is expected
Make a plan in writing
Hold him to it.

*All the above while doing your best to be calm, rational, fair, and not condesending.

***if you need to vent just before the meeting, come here and scream your head off so long as it's family friendly. Get it all out before and your head will be right to discuss business.

 

[Toxophilite]

Toxophilite,
Thank you so much for taking the time to post on my thread. What do you think about the thin set just being "globbed" on there?

I have laid many a house floor in tile of many different kinds of tile from rough saltillo to marble to ceramic. I am not experienced or knowledgeable with with moisture underlayment for same on pools, but mine was just laid as depicted by Jim and can't see where any issue can arise from that. But, to just glob the middle to "hold" the tile in place violates any tile laying principle I know due to stability with air pockets at edges, less adhesion, and a pocket for moisture accumulation. On a floor, they would have eventually popped up and off or cracked.

 

[Aquaholic1]

I have laid many a house floor in tile of many different kinds of tile from rough saltillo to marble to ceramic. I am not experienced or knowledgeable with with moisture underlayment for same on pools, but mine was just laid as depicted by Jim and can't see where any issue can arise from that. But, to just glob the middle to "hold" the tile in place violates any tile laying principle I know due to stability with air pockets at edges, less adhesion, and a pocket for moisture accumulation. On a floor, they would have eventually popped up and off or cracked.

Tox,
Thank you so much for your input. I'm just going by my personal experience and what three different tile places have told me regarding marble being placed in pools or near pools. I agree with you 100% about "holding" tile in place just by a glob of thin set. I don't think anyone has to be a tile professional to know that it just doesn't look right. I just want all this done and past us.

 

[Toxophilite]

Tox,
Thank you so much for your input. I'm just going by my personal experience and what three different tile places have told me regarding marble being placed in pools or near pools. I agree with you 100% about "holding" tile in place just by a glob of thin set. I don't think anyone has to be a tile professional to know that it just doesn't look right. I just want all this done and past us.

I know, in my experience, marble has never fared well in showers, bathroom floors, or anywhere wet. Any tile, though, needs a foundation that is 100% of the base of tile.

 

[Cena_sea]

For the ledger stone on the wall, mine looks like yours, with little uneven gaps in spots. I just checked photos of the product pre-install and yes that was the way it was made.

Was your builder present during tile installation? It's way better the problems with the install are coming to light now than after plaster/water. The good thing is your builder wants to get it fixed and I believe he would want to get it done right. I've seen other examples on this site of tile needing to be ripped out so it can be redone successfully. Same subs or different, I'd want him to be present for the reinstall (at least for the start of it). But either way you are going to be co-managing the project to finish with the builder. (I wouldn't tell him that but that is the reality.) I'd also want him to doublecheck any of the other tile and coping done. For me, I was focused on the look of the pool I paid no attention to plumbing or equipment. My builder offered to walk me through the plumbing onsite and explain what each pipe was and I said I didn't need to do that--I'm sure it was fine--but I wish I had because I am trying to slowly catch up learning.

 

[Cena_sea]

I sealed the ledger with the darker seal but there is also the natural seal where it doesn't change the appearance. I plan to use both for different areas.

 

[Aquaholic1]

This is sample ledger with portions sealed (darker seal).

Cena_sea,
Beautiful split ledger! Yea - No....mine wasn't obviously sealed because it would've had a slight bit darker tint. You are 100% correct. It's better to find out now than later on. This time around I'm going with porcelain split face that looks like marble (exactly what we have now but made of good ole' porcelain). The only reason I noticed the plumbing is because the river pump has a specific layout that has to be done properly in order to prevent flow restrictions with the return being a straight 12 inch diameter pipe and then two 90 degree elbows on each side of the dual suction boxes. I'll send you some pictures so you have a better idea and I wasn't just micro managing the guys. lol The guys tore out all the waterline tile on Saturday and now they're here tearing out the split face on the back pool wall, spa perimeter and bridge perimeter. It was supposed to rain today. However, you never know in Texas. I hope that you had a great weekend.