Plumbing Schematic Review - Help?

[Brant]

Hello everyone!

I'm new(ish) to the forum. We are hopefully planning to start our build within the next month. I recently finished the plumbing schematic for my build. I basically didn't have anyone to help so I did as much research as I could to figure out what I believe is a good plan for my system. I didn't want to leave it up to the plumber to decide. I found that many people that do plumbing have little clue about what should and shouldn't be done when it comes to line sizes. They just do what they have seen or always done. Sometimes this is the right thing to do but sometimes it reinforces bad habits. I'd rather build my pool as correct as possible.

As such, I was hoping someone on this forum with more knowledge and experience would be able to assist with a review. My pool will be 25k gallons with a 9x7 spa and 18x8 splash pad. It will have 3 sheer descents and 3 bubblers that I intend to put on a separate 3 hp pump. I plan to use a robot for cleaning but wanted to pre-plumb for a future polaris. The plumbing/pumps are flooded and since the equipment pad will sit right behind my raised bond beam, this should minimize friction loss. I want to stay within (or close to) the APSP velocity recommendations of 6 FPS (for suction lines) and 8 FPS (for returns lines). I listed the approximate GPM on the returns, features, spa jets and included a chart with velocities by line size.

I REALLY appreciate anyone taking the time to do a review of this and providing some feedback.

Thank you!

-B

 

[ajw22]

Few people here will open a PDF like you posted so I am posting clips of it below...

 

[ajw22]

Some comments in no particular order....

• Good luck getting any plumber to read, understand, and follow your diagrams. In my experience the plumber will look at it, shake his head, and throw it to the side and do things the way he believes it should work. I suggest you be there with the plumber as he does his work and discuss with him the way he plans to do things versus your design.
• Install the Pentair Automatic Heater Bypass as described in Pentair MasterTemp Heaters - Further Reading and AUTOMATIC BY-PASS VALVE KIT (P/N 462048) FOR MASTERTEMP® AND MAX-E-THERM® POOL AND SPA HEATERS
• The two spa drains and pool drains, as required by VGBA, are internally interconnected to one pipe. So you have one pipe run, not two, to the equipment pad.
• The turnover requirement of pools has no scientific basis and is not needed. With modern VS pumps you run a pool at low flow rates. Read Turnover of Pool Water - Further Reading
• Your should use a SWG as your chlorinator. Using a tablet Trichlor chlorinator will lead to high
  CYA and require draining your pool every 6 months in TX.
• SPAs require chlorination during use and the SWG should be before the POOL/SPA diverter valve.
• 3 SPA returns and 8 POOL returns is over design. 2 & 3-4 is more typical.
• What automation system are you going to have? You should use scheduled SPILLOVER mode on your automation rather than a spa return to keep the spa water fresh.
• There is more to be tuned up on the diagram but I will leave it to others to pile on.

 

[HermanTX]

My feedback is
Only need 1 line each from the main and spa drains to the filter pump
Why are there 2 separate sets wall drains for the water feature pump? Can you increase the suction pipe to 3" to meet your requirements?
There is no need to have return lines to the spa (in Pool mode) if you use spillover mode from your automation. If you do put a spa return line then it only needs to be a single line and ensure you have a valve on it to shut it off if required. All you want to do is refresh the spa water.
You should include a heater bypass line. Heater Bypass - Further Reading
You would be better off using that Polaris line for a suction cleaner than setting up a booster pump and pressure side cleaner.

 

[pjt]

Are you committed to a sand filter? Have you looked at large cartridge filters?

What kind of chlorinator are you planning?

 

[Brant]

Some comments in no particular order....

• Good luck getting any plumber to read, understand, and follow your diagrams. In my experience the plumber will look at it, shake his head, and throw it to the side and do things the way he believes it should work. I suggest you be there with the plumber as he does his work and discuss with him the way he plans to do things versus your design.
• Install the Pentair Automatic Heater Bypass as described in Pentair MasterTemp Heaters - Further Reading and AUTOMATIC BY-PASS VALVE KIT (P/N 462048) FOR MASTERTEMP® AND MAX-E-THERM® POOL AND SPA HEATERS
• The two spa drains and pool drains, as required by VGBA, are internally interconnected to one pipe. So you have one pipe run, not two, to the equipment pad.
• The turnover requirement of pools has no scientific basis and is not needed. With modern VS pumps you run a pool at low flow rates. Read Turnover of Pool Water - Further Reading
• Your should use a SWG as your chlorinator. Using a tablet Trichlor chlorinator will lead to high
  CYA and require draining your pool every 6 months in TX.
• SPAs require chlorination during use and the SWG should be before the POOL/SPA diverter valve.
• 3 SPA returns and 8 POOL returns is over design. 2 & 3-4 is more typical.
• What automation system are you going to have? You should use scheduled SPILLOVER mode on your automation rather than a spa return to keep the spa water fresh.
• There is more to be tuned up on the diagram but I will leave it to others to pile on.

Thank you very much for the feedback...

• I will look into the heater bypass. I figured there was something like that.
• I had two spa drain lines because I figured the suction velocity would be excessive in 2.5" and haven't seen people run 3" for these. I asked a builder and he said that they would run multiple lines if the spa was large and needed higher flow rates.
• SWG- I'll look into it more.
• I'll move the chlorinator or SWG upstream the diverter valve.
• Builder told me 6 returns for pool. The 3 spa returns were to accommodate the flowrate needs for the spa overflow (5 ft long).
• I'm planning to use Pentair's Intellicenter. So how does the spillover mode work? What plumbing changes do I need to make?
  
  On the SWG vs tablet debate:
  I've heard about CYA but have friends with chlorine pools that do not seem to be affected and are not draining their pools every 6 month (or ever). If they are not draining, why would I need to? Also, none of the build pool builders that gave me quotes recommended SWG. Also, the guys at the local pool supply (who said they used to service pools), said they would not recommend salt. They say that salt is hard on the system and causes corrosion on all things metal anywhere near the pool. It also destroys travertine coping. Seemed like a lot of cons to me.

 

[Brant]

Are you committed to a sand filter? Have you looked at large cartridge filters?

What kind of chlorinator are you planning?

I was pushed towards using sand filter (using glass media rather than sand) from an equipment salesman as he said that it never needs to be replaced and requires less maintenance. He said the filtering benefits of cartridges do not outweigh the added maintenance.

Why do you recommend cartridge over sand/glass?

 

[Brant]

My feedback is
Only need 1 line each from the main and spa drains to the filter pump
Why are there 2 separate sets wall drains for the water feature pump? Can you increase the suction pipe to 3" to meet your requirements?
There is no need to have return lines to the spa (in Pool mode) if you use spillover mode from your automation. If you do put a spa return line then it only needs to be a single line and ensure you have a valve on it to shut it off if required. All you want to do is refresh the spa water.
You should include a heater bypass line. Heater Bypass - Further Reading
You would be better off using that Polaris line for a suction cleaner than setting up a booster pump and pressure side cleaner.

Thank you for the feedback and questions...

• I assumed I wanted to keep the suction velocity below 6 FPS and I feel like the spa (at 136+ gpm) was going to exceed this with (1) 2.5" line and even (1) 3" was going to be on the top end (6 ft/sec at 138 gpm). As mentioned above, a builder suggested running two lines. I guess it's overkill?
• Water features needs are around 140 to 160 gpm. Two lines for the same reason as above. I figured velocity would be too high. If they were 2.5", I could get away with (3) wall fittings rather than (4). What would you do at this gpm volume?
• How does spillover mode work? How is it plumbed?
• I will do the heater bypass.
• I don't understand the Polaris comment. Would you please explain this or show me what you mean?

 

[DavidArmenB]

Also, none of the build pool builders that gave me quotes recommended SWG. Also, the guys at the local pool supply (who said they used to service pools), said they would not recommend salt. They say that salt is hard on the system and causes corrosion on all things metal anywhere near the pool. It also destroys travertine coping. Seemed like a lot of cons to me.

All of that is total and complete malarkey.

Also, no logical person who, for some reason, does not recommend a SWG, would recommend tablets in its stead. They should recommend liquid chlorine instead. Those are your only two choices of proper year-round chlorination in my opinion and the opinion of most members here.

 

[ajw22]

Spillover mode comes for free. It uses the pool/spa return valve to send water to the spa while suction comes from the pool.

We have no idea how your friend is maintaining his pool. If you choose not to install a SWG now then leave room in your plumbing to cut it in. TX builders don’t like SWGs for some reason. We have hundreds of TX members who saw the light after listening to their builder and retrofitted their SWG in later.

TFP pool care methods are different than most builders and pool stores. Pool owners come here after the other methods fail on them. You can decide which way you want to start.

 

[DavidArmenB]

Spillover mode comes for free. It uses the pool/spa return valve to send water to the spa while suction comes from the pool.

We have no idea how your friend is maintaining his pool. If you choose not to install a SWG now then leave room in your plumbing to cut it in. TX builders don’t like SWGs for some reason. We have hundreds of TX members who saw the light after listening to their builder and retrofitted their SWG in later.

TFP pool care methods are different than most builders and pool stores. Pool owners come here after the other methods fail on them. You can decide which way you want to start.

Couldn’t have said it any better myself.

 

[ajw22]

We had a discussion about the pros and cons of different types of cleaners in this thread…

Went to my local pool store to buy Liquid Chlorine and saw this....

Plenty of dead robots to go around... :( Thanks, Jim R.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[ajw22]

I was pushed towards using sand filter (using glass media rather than sand) from an equipment salesman as he said that it never needs to be replaced and requires less maintenance. He said the filtering benefits of cartridges do not outweigh the added maintenance.

Why do you recommend cartridge over sand/glass?

Each type of filter has their pros and cons. Understand what choices you are making or being pushed into. Read How to select pool equipment - Further Reading

We don’t recommend alternative medias in sand filters. The correct sand is the best media as proven by the manufacturer. Read Sand Filter Use and Care - Further Reading

 

[Newdude]

have friends with chlorine pools that do not seem to be affected and are not draining their pools every 6 month (or ever). If they are not draining, why would I need to?

Here is what each tab will add to your pool.




Figuring you'll likely need 2 tabs a day during the hot part of the TX season, they'll add 2.6 ppm of CYA per day. Every 10 you need to raise your FC target to sanitize at the same level. You will need to raise your FC target every 3.84 days and it will be out of control quickly.



Over 100 simply becomes unmanageable. That's when you start getting 'pool stored' with algecides, clarifiers, flocculants and shocks.


On the equipment front, I had a pool for 8.5 years and moved. I could have chosen anything with a blank slate for pool 2 but wouldn't have entertained anything but a large VS pump, large cartridge filter and SWG.

 

[DavidArmenB]

Here is what each tab will add to your pool.

View attachment 552346


Figuring you'll likely need 2 tabs a day during the hot part of the TX season, they'll add 2.6 ppm of CYA per day. Every 10 you need to raise your FC target to sanitize at the same level. You will need to raise your FC target every 3.84 days and it will be out of control quickly.

View attachment 552347

Over 100 simply becomes unmanageable. That's when you start getting 'pool stored' with algecides, clarifiers, flocculants and shocks.


On the equipment front, I had a pool for 8.5 years and moved. I could have chosen anything with a blank slate for pool 2 but wouldn't have entertained anything but a large VS pump, large cartridge filter and SWG.

I went through this exact issue when I bought my house in June 2022 and the pool was using a floater with 3” trichlor tabs and I had zero knowledge of anything pool related so I continued to do the same thing and even got an automatic tab feeder when I replumbed the entire pad.

I had a green tinge in the water since I moved in that I just couldn’t get rid of.

It took about a month before I found this website, ordered proper test kits, and tested my water.

My CYA was 130ppm.

I had to drain over half my water to go down to a more manageable CYA concentration and began using liquid chlorine. My water became crystal clear and I haven’t had any chemistry issues at all (other than some efflorescence in my new waterline tile, which is not pool chemistry related).

A month later I installed the Hayward Aquarite T-15 SWCG and I’ve been a happy camper since.

A year after that I had my pool resurfaced. Filled it back up, followed the start up procedure, and chlorinated with liquid chlorine for the first two months before I added salt and started up my SWCG (per the procedure) and, once again, I’ve had zero issues to this day.

Those are clouds reflecting on the water.

 

[Brant]

All of that is total and complete malarkey.

Also, no logical person who, for some reason, does not recommend a SWG, would recommend tablets in its stead. They should recommend liquid chlorine instead. Those are your only two choices of proper year-round chlorination in my opinion and the opinion of most members here.

Sorry, I meant liquid. Not tablets. But the other things are accurate. That was what I've been told by the bigger builders that quoted my pool. And my old neighbor has a chlorine pool now and a salt pool at his previous house and said it destroyed his grout and outdoor furniture. Another buddy has a salt pool now and it is eating his coping. It looks rough. I personally have zero experience as I've never owned a pool.

 

[Brant]

Spillover mode comes for free. It uses the pool/spa return valve to send water to the spa while suction comes from the pool.

So I don't need to have any special plumbing or valve other than the 3-way that I use for the spa/pool mode? If this is the case, does it just open a little bit to allow water to flow to the spa while it is returning to the pool? How do I regulate how much water returns to the spa to overflow it? I guess I didnt realize the 3 way valve will allow flow to both the pool and spa at the same time.

 

[Brant]

Here is what each tab will add to your pool.

View attachment 552346


Figuring you'll likely need 2 tabs a day during the hot part of the TX season, they'll add 2.6 ppm of CYA per day. Every 10 you need to raise your FC target to sanitize at the same level. You will need to raise your FC target every 3.84 days and it will be out of control quickly.

View attachment 552347

Over 100 simply becomes unmanageable. That's when you start getting 'pool stored' with algecides, clarifiers, flocculants and shocks.


On the equipment front, I had a pool for 8.5 years and moved. I could have chosen anything with a blank slate for pool 2 but wouldn't have entertained anything but a large VS pump, large cartridge filter and SWG.

What are the issues with the build up of these chemicals? Does the water become toxic? It definitely sounds bad but what are the potential repercussions?

So for my 25k pool, using pentair equipment, what equipment do you recommend for a SWG and cartridge?

 

[Brant]

I went through this exact issue when I bought my house in June 2022 and the pool was using a floater with 3” trichlor tabs and I had zero knowledge of anything pool related so I continued to do the same thing and even got an automatic tab feeder when I replumbed the entire pad.

I had a green tinge in the water since I moved in that I just couldn’t get rid of.

It took about a month before I found this website, ordered proper test kits, and tested my water.

My CYA was 130ppm.

I had to drain over half my water to go down to a more manageable CYA concentration and began using liquid chlorine. My water became crystal clear and I haven’t had any chemistry issues at all (other than some efflorescence in my new waterline tile, which is not pool chemistry related).

A month later I installed the Hayward Aquarite T-15 SWCG and I’ve been a happy camper since.

A year after that I had my pool resurfaced. Filled it back up, followed the start up procedure, and chlorinated with liquid chlorine for the first two months before I added salt and started up my SWCG (per the procedure) and, once again, I’ve had zero issues to this day.
View attachment 552361
Those are clouds reflecting on the water.

So you use liquid chlorine to start out and then start up the SWG? Does a SWG need the inital liquid chorline boost before its up and running?

You mention tabs... is CYA and issue using liquid chlorine also?

 

[ajw22]

So I don't need to have any special plumbing or valve other than the 3-way that I use for the spa/pool mode? If this is the case, does it just open a little bit to allow water to flow to the spa while it is returning to the pool? How do I regulate how much water returns to the spa to overflow it? I guess I didnt realize the 3 way valve will allow flow to both the pool and spa at the same time.

It does not.

In SPILLOVER mode all water flows into the spa and then into the pool over the spillover.

You control the flow of the spillover with the speed of the pump.