Perfect PH

chem geek

LifeTime Supporter
TFP Expert
Mar 28, 2007
12,082
2
San Rafael, CA USA
#4
The MSDS for the Perfect pH product is here. It's essentially a phosphate buffer with dipotassium phosphate (K[sub]2[/sub]HPO[sub]4[/sub]) and monosodium phosphate (NaH[sub]2[/sub]PO[sub]4[/sub]). Though this is definitely something I would not put into a pool since it increases phosphates so could increase the rate of growth of algae (especially if it got to >> 3000 ppb), in a spa I don't know if it would be as much of a problem. They say to add one quart to 300-500 gallons, but they don't say the quantity of chemicals -- if anyone can see the ingredients on the label and give me the percentages, then I can calculate the phosphate concentration in the water. I suspect it will be very high in order to provide pH buffering.

They talk about potential cloudiness and recommend using Robarb Super Blue for Spas (a clarifier) in that case (see here and here).

There is no question that having an additional pH buffer in a spa that is not carbonates (i.e. sodium bicarbonate) will help stabilize pH without contributing to its tendency to rise from outgassing of carbon dioxide. It's the risk of latent algae growth with its associated chlorine demand that would be my biggest concern. Though a tub is covered most of the time, it doesn't take that much light for algae to grow so tubs used every day might be susceptible to algae if phosphates are very high (then again, if the temperature of the water is kept high, then perhaps that will inhibit some of this growth).

waterbear, what's your experience with this product? The above is all theoretical, of course.

Richard
 
G
#5
Chemgeek basically summed it up. It's a phosphate buffer and they tend to create more problems then they solve. a borate buffer such as Proteams Gentle Spa is actually a better way to go!
One of the biggest problems is with calcium and clouding!!
 

all your parts

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Feb 26, 2008
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www.poolandspawarehouse.com
#6
i read what you are saying but i use the product and never have anytrouble with my spa
i will agree that it does not see the sun(i use it mostly then the kids go to bed) i do use it like 4x a week
but i do not have any cloudy problems i do use clarifier once a week in it
but again i would say try it i like it
paul
 

Deep Blue

Active member
Mar 14, 2008
32
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#7
Good input

thanx for all your great expertise on this it good that we act as such a large group to sort things out.. kinga like one huge pool store haha


Regards
 
#8
Thought I'd dredge this up rather than starting a new thread...

What's the deal with phosphate buffers and calcium? When the ChemCo edumacated me about about these, they mentioned that you shouldn't add calcium because the buffer would precipitate it out. Why is this and does the same thing happen if you add calcium after adding the buffer?
 

chem geek

LifeTime Supporter
TFP Expert
Mar 28, 2007
12,082
2
San Rafael, CA USA
#9
The order doesn't matter -- calcium phosphate is not very soluble. So if you add a phosphate buffer to the water, you'll precipitate calcium phosphate essentially removing much of the calcium from the water (and vice versa). It may cloud up and get filtered out or may settle to the bottom depending on how much calcium there is in the water. It can be a mess.

You would never use a phosphate buffer in a plaster pool or any situation where you wanted saturation of calcium carbonate. Such buffers are more commonly used in spas as noted here. As waterbear pointed out, the use of a borates buffer is generally better and doesn't have the precipitating side effects.

Richard
 
#11
Yeah, I've never been a fan of this stuff. The version we carried was Spaguard (Bioguard).

I was 16 and at their annual Chem School when I raised my hand in the auditorium and asked: "Since this stuff purges calcium from the water AND holds your pH stable, is there any reason to use Stain and Scale control as a maintenance chemical (adding S&S was at the bottom of EVERY water test printout)?" The guy giving the presentation said "No, you don't need to worry about that."

Then someone else in the audience raises his hand and says "But it's still on the printout!" So the guy teaching the class says, "Oh, well if the computer says you need it..." Nevermind any chemical reasons or that metal staining could still be an issue. It's on the printout.

Anyway, thanks for the info. There's a spa owner on another forum whose pool store just gave him 32 oz of Calcium AND 'pH anchor' in the same visit, told him you can't bring down TA and at 140 it's not an issue anyway, so now he's got a tub full of hot milk. I'll be shepherding him this direction for reprogramming.
 
G
#12
spishex said:
Yeah, I've never been a fan of this stuff. The version we carried was Spaguard (Bioguard).

I was 16 and at their annual Chem School when I raised my hand in the auditorium and asked: "Since this stuff purges calcium from the water AND holds your pH stable, is there any reason to use Stain and Scale control as a maintenance chemical (adding S&S was at the bottom of EVERY water test printout)?" The guy giving the presentation said "No, you don't need to worry about that."

Then someone else in the audience raises his hand and says "But it's still on the printout!" So the guy teaching the class says, "Oh, well if the computer says you need it..." Nevermind any chemical reasons or that metal staining could still be an issue. It's on the printout.
THIS is exactly why I am not a fan of Bioguard (or the other Chemtura companies). Bioguard's notorious ALEX testing system was designed solely to sell product and increase profit margins, IMHO!