Pentair IntelliCenter

[sanspeur]

As long as it came on, you should be good. Once the water temp probe sends signals to IC and IC determines that the water temp is in fact what you selected it to be, it will continue to cycle the heater Off/On to maintain that temp.

No doubt there will be "tinkering" and fine-tuning, but it sounds like you are well on your way (passing angels 7 for angels 10). I'm jealous . I'm ready to install IC and "tinker" too, but the retrofit kit for my ET load center won't be out until March. So guess I will have to live vicariously through you, until early next year LOL...

I'm still thinking about that transformer issue. It's bugging the **** out of me.

Take care brother and talk to you later...
r...

It is all a lot for me with not having any automation prior, but it is a little fun lol. I know you are chomping at the bit...hopefully Pentair can get those retrofit kits out early (wishful thinking). Anyway, yeah that transformer thing is going to make me toss and turn tonight....grrrrr. :grrrr:

Thanks for the positive posts, have a good evening!

 

[bdavis466]

You sure the neutral is hooked up correctly? It doesn't look like it is

 

[Dirk]

Is there a load connected to the 12V side of the transformer(s) while this is being tested? If not, try that. If so, is whatever is connected functioning? Do you have an alternate source of 12V that you can test with (disconnect the transformer, of course, you're testing just the light).

You're walking through the troubleshooting correctly, testing along the entire chain, and replacing things when you can. The voltage across the load side of the transformer shouldn't be dependent on load, but it could be.

 

[sanspeur]

You sure the neutral is hooked up correctly? It doesn't look like it is

It is connected to the neutral bar. Is there somewhere else it should be? Should it be on the ground bar?

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Is there a load connected to the 12V side of the transformer(s) while this is being tested? If not, try that. If so, is whatever is connected functioning? Do you have an alternate source of 12V that you can test with (disconnect the transformer, of course, you're testing just the light).

You're walking through the troubleshooting correctly, testing along the entire chain, and replacing things when you can. The voltage across the load side of the transformer shouldn't be dependent on load, but it could be.

I've tried it with and without a load. Unfortunately I don't have an alternate 12v source to test the lighting...I guess I could go buy a transformer that plugs into an outlet to try....

 

[MyAZPool]

It is connected to the neutral bar. Is there somewhere else it should be? Should it be on the ground bar?


I've tried it with and without a load. Unfortunately I don't have an alternate 12v source to test the lighting...I guess I could go buy a transformer that plugs into an outlet to try....

That wire IS supposed to be connected to Neutral. The neutral bus bar works provided you insure that you have a solid connection from the LC neutral back to neutral at the main service entrance. I am assuming that you are running your two 120V legs, the neutral and the ground from your service entrance main panel??
God help me if I open up a "floating neutral for a sub-panel" can of worms here. I think I'll just stay on topic

 

[Dirk]

And you're certain the light accepts 12V AC, that there was nothing between transformer and light in the old box? Sorry, don't know much about 12V pool lights.

Neutrals go to the neutral bar.

Unrelated: I was surprised to see the gauge feeding the breakers. Is your pump wired to that panel?

 

[MyAZPool]

Unrelated: I was surprised to see the gauge feeding the breakers. Is your pump wired to that panel?

Si.. Exactly what I was alluding to about the feed wires. Looks to be Romex 12-3. I'm hoping not so, as I could not exactly tell in the photos.

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Those babies are going to get awfully hot unless the main panel is on the other side of that block wall!

 

[sanspeur]

And you're certain the light accepts 12V AC, that there was nothing between transformer and light in the old box? Sorry, don't know much about 12V pool lights.

Neutrals go to the neutral bar.

Unrelated: I was surprised to see the gauge feeding the breakers. Is your pump wired to that panel?

Yes to all. Pump prior to my VSF was a single speed pump lol

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Si.. Exactly what I was alluding to about the feed wires. Looks to be Romex 12-3. I'm hoping not so, as I could not exactly tell in the photos.

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Those babies are going to get awfully hot unless the main panel is on the other side of that block wall!

Been that way since the pool was installed (house built 2004)....I've only owned it for last 3 years...And main panel is on front of house in garage, this panel is in back.

 

[Dirk]

OK, this is as far as I go. I try not to get sucked into pool wiring threads. Can't help meeself!!

I believe pool wiring needs to be performed by a licensed electrician who is qualified with and experienced in installing and testing and troubleshooting pool wiring and bonding. And that one shouldn't DIY and/or learn how to do it from an internet forum, even this one. Assumptions get made. Pictures get misread. It's not like helping someone with plumbing, where if you get it wrong you get a leak, or bad filter performance, or even a blown up pump, etc. If you get electrical wrong, you can have devastating consequences (bodily harm or much worse).

Everybody wants to save money. Me too. But what is your family's safety worth?

And allow me to repeat: a licensed electrician who is qualified and experienced... Not a pool guy that says he knows how to do it and has done hundreds of these, no problems so far...

Good luck.

 

[MyAZPool]

Yes to all. Pump prior to my VSF was a single speed pump lol

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Been that way since the pool was installed (house built 2004)....I've only owned it for last 3 years...And main panel is on front of house in garage, this panel is in back.

I'll just add this little bit of my two cents concerning the power which is currently feeding the load center, and then we can get back on topic about the transformer.

You might want to think about a wiring upgrade from the main panel to your load center, if in fact those are 12 gauge wires feeding the L.C. Especially depending on the distance from the main panel to LC.

Back when the pool was built, there was probably two circuits I'm guessing feeding the equipment pool pad. One for the pump/spa heater (gas I assume) and one for light.
The pump was probably 1 or 1.5 hp drawing maybe 7 amps or so.

Since then, you have added a 3hp pump (which by specs requires a 20amp breaker), Load Center and it's associated transformers etc. Granted, many of those items don't draw a lot of amps, but just saying.

I just read Dirks reply while I was in the middle of typing this. I too am going to steer away from this topic because I don't have an electricians license and I don't want to also make a mis-judgement. (I've been fortunate to be a neighbor of a very successful commercial/industrial electrician for years. He gives all of the instructions, I do all the digging and get dirty and he makes the inspections (in the case of my load center).

Sooo, concur with Dirks thoughts about an electrician. A good recommendation. They can figure amp draws, distance, wiring size, future upgrade anticipation etc etc.

I'll forget about everything else and just focus on the IntelliCenter portion.

 

[sanspeur]

Well I kinda thought the reason there are forums such as this was for the exchange of ideas, and help, by "experts" in the field, when a problem comes up. I'm not engineering a new water feature, adding an additional pump, etc. I moved my electrical from one LC to another that had additional features (relays and computer control) . BTW, if you don't know "PIE" you don't know electrical load and capacity (MY full load currently is drawing less than 20 amps and this wiring and breaker is rated for 30. I'll look at upgrading the electrical supply when the need arises). Nope, not a licensed electrician but I've worked around 440v with floating grounds, 240vac, and 120vac (and all manner of dc) and can sure wire the heck out of a light switch! lol Yep, this transformer has me perplexed but I have an idea at to what is going on after sleeping on it. Gonna test that theory in a few minutes. I'm not putting anyone in danger, SMH, and I absolve anyone here who has made any suggestions about the wiring. Everything is grounded/bonded - once I put the ground wire on this morning (which BTW was NOT installed on the previous LC and no one was harmed - and a "professional" installed that one) and no line voltage is being applied where it should not be. Thanks for everyone's help and opinions on the wiring but I'll not bother to bring it up again and figure it out myself or go elsewhere.

Update: Found problem with light transformer/lights wiring, corrected. Here are some finished pics for anyone interested...Album — Postimage.org. Note on the pic showing the bottom of the LC: air temp sensor - the wire was only long enough to run it to just out the bottom of the low voltage compartment. I did not note anywhere to possibly mount it to the LC case. Perhaps Pentair could come up with a better solution. It works fine where it is and stays out of direct sunlight so that's where it is staying lol. Any questions, about any of this, let me know.

 

[Dirk]

I'm not putting anyone in danger

But you are (you, anyone else living in that house, anyone that swims in your pool, and the next family that owns both), and the fact that you don't recognize how you are is why I suggested you get someone that does. Building codes exist to protect everyone that enters or gets near a building or a pool, etc, now and in the future. I'm not suggesting you don't have the skill level to do this work, but I can clearly see you're seemingly lacking the knowledge to do it correctly (because I can clearly see what appear to be several code violations and/or not-recommended installations).

I'm not an electrician. While I was a general contractor and after I retired as one, I wired and rewired enough residential electrical to equal an entire apartment building, and yet I hired a professional to wire my pool because I didn't know what I didn't know. For example, your box is currently NOT bonded (unless you've somehow hidden the bond wire behind the wall), and the term "put the ground wire on this morning" indicates that you don't know what bonding is, or at least the vocabulary. And even if it's just your electrical vocabulary, that certainly compromises the "exchange of ideas" in a forum.

I don't mean to offend you, and if I have I sincerely apologize. But a little "tough love" is in order. Others here believe like you, that helping someone over the internet with pool wiring is OK. And that's fine. But I don't believe that is OK, and shouldn't have, even to the extend I did. I'm not seeking to be absolved, I'm genuinely concerned about your setup, and offering you advice on the best way I know of to get it straightened out: by allowing a licensed, qualified professional do the work. That is the idea I'm exchanging with you.

Others who feel differently might still happen along to help you, so I didn't mean to sound like I'm shutting down your efforts, I'm not. I just can't in good conscious contribute to them. Good luck with your new IntelliCenter, and I hope it all goes "swimmingly" for you!

BTW, while the OP has contributed to this portion of his thread, this could be seen as hijacking the original topic, so it might just all get moved to its own thread. That's up to him and/or the Mod's of this forum who like to keep things tidy around here.

 

[sanspeur]

But you are (you, anyone else living in that house, anyone that swims in your pool, and the next family that owns both), and the fact that you don't recognize how you are is why I suggested you get someone that does. Building codes exist to protect everyone that enters or gets near a building or a pool, etc, now and in the future. I'm not suggesting you don't have the skill level to do this work, but I can clearly see you're seemingly lacking the knowledge to do it correctly (because I can clearly see several code violations).

I'm not an electrician. While I was a general contractor and after I retired as one, I wired and rewired enough residential electrical to equal an entire apartment building, and yet I hired a professional to wire my pool because I didn't know what I didn't know. For example, your box is currently NOT bonded (unless you've somehow hidden the bond wire behind the wall), and the term "put the ground wire on this morning" indicates that you don't know what bonding is, or at least the vocabulary. And even if it's just your electrical vocabulary, that certainly compromises the "exchange of ideas" in a forum.

I don't mean to offend you, and if I have I sincerely apologize. But a little "tough love" is in order. Others here believe like you, that helping someone over the internet with pool wiring is OK. And that's fine. But I don't believe that is OK, and shouldn't have, even to the extend I did. I'm not seeking to be absolved, I'm genuinely concerned about your setup, and offering you advice on the best way I know of to get it straightened out: by allowing a licensed, qualified professional do the work. That is the idea I'm exchanging with you.

Others who feel differently might still happen along to help you, so I didn't mean to sound like I'm shutting down your efforts, I'm not. I just can't in good conscious contribute to them. Good luck with your new IntelliCenter, and I hope it all goes "swimmingly" for you!

BTW, while the OP has contributed to this portion of his thread, this could be seen as hijacking the original topic, so it might just all get moved to its own thread. That's up to him and/or the Mod's of this forum who like to keep things tidy around here.

OP, as I stated previously, I did not intend to hijack this thread. I had hoped a DIYer installation of the new IC would be beneficial. If you or the mods prefer this conversation be moved, please do. Thanks!

Dirk, thanks for the "education" and your opinion - no offense taken. See, this is why I thought these forums existed. Yes, I guess I was using the wrong vernacular. My bad. The IC IS bonded to the pool grid in the same manner as the pump and heater. And while we are chatting, you mentioned "several code violations"... care to assist me and note those as well? Thanks in advance.

 

[MyAZPool]

Well I kinda thought the reason there are forums such as this was for the exchange of ideas, and help, by "experts" in the field, when a problem comes up. I'm not engineering a new water feature, adding an additional pump, etc. I moved my electrical from one LC to another that had additional features (relays and computer control) . BTW, if you don't know "PIE" you don't know electrical load and capacity (MY full load currently is drawing less than 20 amps and this wiring and breaker is rated for 30. I'll look at upgrading the electrical supply when the need arises). Nope, not a licensed electrician but I've worked around 440v with floating grounds, 240vac, and 120vac (and all manner of dc) and can sure wire the heck out of a light switch! lol Yep, this transformer has me perplexed but I have an idea at to what is going on after sleeping on it. Gonna test that theory in a few minutes. I'm not putting anyone in danger, SMH, and I absolve anyone here who has made any suggestions about the wiring. Everything is grounded/bonded - once I put the ground wire on this morning (which BTW was NOT installed on the previous LC and no one was harmed - and a "professional" installed that one) and no line voltage is being applied where it should not be. Thanks for everyone's help and opinions on the wiring but I'll not bother to bring it up again and figure it out myself or go elsewhere.

Update: Found problem with light transformer/lights wiring, corrected. Here are some finished pics for anyone interested...Album — Postimage.org. Note on the pic showing the bottom of the LC: air temp sensor - the wire was only long enough to run it to just out the bottom of the low voltage compartment. I did not note anywhere to possibly mount it to the LC case. Perhaps Pentair could come up with a better solution. It works fine where it is and stays out of direct sunlight so that's where it is staying lol. Any questions, about any of this, let me know.

Sanseur,

1. I apologize if I have offended you in any way. Not my intent (or anyone else here I'm sure!) I and I'm sure Dirk as well (if I can take the liberty to speak for him), were just thinking SAFETY and NOT attempting to "pile-on" or beat-up on you in any way.

2. That is the problem when looking at photos that may be deceiving and not actually being on-site.

3. But a few things raised red flags for me (again sorry if I made assumptions) and I didn't want to give any wiring advice that might have negative consequences...

a. When I saw what appeared to be 12-3 romex (nonmetallic sheathed cable (NM)) coming out of the wall (LC feed wires). Especially since I made an assumption that those wires were coming out from the other side of a block wall out in your back yard (much more distance from service entrance panel) and not from your house. You can understand my concern with what appeared to be (4) 15-amp breakers and (1) 20-amp breaker (because your pump is spec'd to be on a 20 amp breaker), on what appeared to be a 20-amp circuit.

Since you now indicate that your feed circuit from the main panel is rated for 30 amps, then I must have been wrong (by just looking at photos) to assume that your feed wiring was 12 gauge. I'm sure then that it must be 10 gauge (10-3) based on your clarification right? Again, photos can be deceiving at first.

b. I saw what I assumed to be a 20amp breaker with what appeared in the photo to be 14 gauge wiring connected to it. Sorry, if I was deceived by what I saw in the photo.


4. Thanks very much for sharing the finished photos. Looking good.

5. Good to know that the air-temp probe has a short wire. I think Pentair assumes you will mount it just the way you did. Any other location that a user wanted to mount it would require a wiring extension which would not be a big deal assuming it was water-proofed.

6. Great to hear you solved the light transformer issue. Can you please share where the dis-combobulation was? That would be good information to have for future reference.

Again sorry about any misunderstanding:sunny:. Enjoy your NEW IntelliCenter and please share your ongoing experiences.
r.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Enough guys!!! Let's get back on track..

Let's stop all the doom and gloom and the world is going to end posts.

Sanseur, the rest of us will be very interested in how well your new IntelliCenter works, and what issues you find, if any, with the integration process.

Appreciate your willingness to put up with us...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[MyAZPool]

Enough guys!!! Let's get back on track..

Let's stop all the doom and gloom and the world is going to end posts.

Sanseur, the rest of us will be very interested in how well your new IntelliCenter works, and what issues you find, if any, with the integration process.

Appreciate your willingness to put up with us...

Thanks,

Jim R.

LOL... Roger that.. Time to get my TF-100 and water sample bottle and see what's cookin with that sparkling body of water in my back yard . ;-)

 

[Dirk]

Uhg. See, this is how I let myself get sucked in. But I suppose pointing out something that is already amiss is not as bad as advising to do something amiss! This is based on what I think I can see in one of your images, and what I think I know about wiring in general and pool wiring specifically. I don't know any of the following as fact. I'm not even dead sure about the codes, in your location or mine. And because I'm seeing so many things I don't like (or wouldn't do myself), in the part of the image I can sort of see, it makes me nervous about what I can't see, whether it was your work or some other guy's.

A lot of my concerns are based on what appears to be 12 gauge wire feeding the entire box. You've rationalized that "OK" because you've calculated how many amps you're currently drawing. But I'm almost certain that the gauge required is based on the capacity of the box, not what is currently being used. Either way, you're setting a booby trap for yourself (if you forget) or the next owner of the house, who might rely on what you did. Somebody could add another 20A breaker without checking the gauge of wire to the mains, because they should be able to assume it was done correctly in the first place. That's why codes exist, to cover current use and future expansion. They're not based on somebody remembering that if they add another breaker, or a bigger pump, or a higher-watt bulb, then the feed has to be upgraded.

So...

If that is a 12G wire, then you've got what looks like at least three other 20A breakers wired up with 14G wire. That is not only a code violation, but a fire hazard. You've got 14G running to what looks like the SWG relay. You've got 14G wire running to a pump that requires a 20 amp circuit (and that needs 12G wire minimum). And you've also got a 20A GFI with what looks like 14G wire connected to it. Three strikes and you're out!

So if all those are, in fact, 14G, then what I think are the two 240V wires running to your new pump are running alongside a 14G ground wire, which I believe is also a code violation, and that same ground wire is wire-nutted to another green-jacketed ground wire, which splice together into a single 14G bare copper wire that then runs to the ground bar. I believe it's code that both those ground wires should run directly to the bar.

Then... I think I see what appears to be the 12G mains ground wire wire-nutted to a length of 14G wire that runs to the ground bar, which means your entire ground for the box is running through a 14G wire! And, as I'm guessing, even 12G is not enough for that box!

Taking a breath...... and:

Again, not sure if this is code, or just a really good idea, but your pump should be wired to a GFCI breaker. I don't believe what you are using is that. This is where you get into compound problems/violations and real-world possibilities. For example, you're listing a VSF pump, right? So you could run that as variable flow? I don't know much about those, but it is my understanding that those can be configured to supply X-amount of flow, no matter what. So one day you get a clog of leaves in your skimmer, or you neglect your filter, or any of many scenarios that would cause a significant restriction in your plumbing, and your pump reacts by pushing all that much harder, to maintain flow. Is there any threshold at which it will stop, or will it just continue to push all that much harder? So now you've got a pump that's running way hotter than you ever anticipated, perhaps drawing more than the 15 amps you're 14G wire is capable of handling, and it heats up and compromises the insulation enough to short against something which energizes the [who knows what] but the breaker doesn't pop fast enough because it's not a GFCI and your kid is in the pool, etc, etc. Yah, so a plane could crash into your pool, so how careful are you supposed to be? What are the odds of all that? Adhering to building codes and good practice don't guarantee 100% safe, but they do increase the odds.

And just to be picky: I'm looking at two knockouts laying in the bottom of your box, and that's just sloppy work and not safe, as you don't leave loose bits of metal and wire in a breaker box, code or not. Maybe you've already cleared those. I'll leave the appearance of the way you've chosen to run wires in general off the table. I suppose that's a matter of choice.

That's just what I think I can think see. See? What else did you do, or not do? And I could be wrong about some or all of that, especially the gauges, but that just further supports my point: people viewing your pics on the internet are not there, can't see what's actually going on, and shouldn't really be advising you about how to wire things up...

If I'm right about any or all of that, please do consider that it's not what you know how to do that is the concern, it is what you don't know... And that you not only have a responsibility to yourself and your family, but also to your guests and the next person that owns that house (which might be one of your kids someday!) and their guests and their families...

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Apologies, I was writing my last post while Jim was suggesting I don't. Too late now...

 

[sanspeur]

6. Great to hear you solved the light transformer issue. Can you please share where the dis-combobulation was? That would be good information to have for future reference.

Again sorry about any misunderstanding:sunny:. Enjoy your NEW IntelliCenter and please share your ongoing experiences.
r.

No apologies necessary and no offense taken, from anyone. I realize that safety is paramount and that I am no expert on this (tho no novice either), which is why I am here. Believe that I will ensure all precautions are taken and double-checked before getting into the pool, myself first. Like I said, NO wiring was changed, just a new load center installed (and it IS now bonded to the pool grid unlike the replaced one). Perhaps there are other things required for code (like a cut-off switch - which was not installed and I am thinking it may have not been code 14 years ago when all was initially installed - or the inspector missed it). BTW, I will have a licensed electrician check the work and advise any deficiencies so thanks for all's concern. (Any licensed electricians in the Tampa, FL area here in TFP?)

Regarding the transformer... When I installed the transformer and tested the output when 120vac was applied to the high voltage side, I misunderstood the output diagram and made test lead connections from each of the output leads to the common bar. My mistake was not realizing that the voltage potential exists not from each of the low voltage output leads to common (or ground) but to each other. Therefore when I measured the output voltage between the two black output leads (instead of each to common or ground), there was the 12vac! It had been there all along. My test method was incorrect. The neutral wire from the transformer was correctly connected to the common bus bar. However, the common of the 3 wire line from each of the lights were NOT to be connected to the common bus, but rather to one of the two (black) low voltage output leads from the transformer (the ground conductor from the pool lights wiring IS connected to the ground bar in the LC).

Jim, thanks for the encouragement. Tough crowd in here sometimes lol

 

[sanspeur]

Thanks for the input Dirk. Sure are a lot of assumptions, "appears to be's", and "looks like's" in your post but I appreciate it none the less. Like I said in a previous response, I will have a licensed electrician take a look at it. I'll bet you're a hoot at a party LOL, I'm kidding!

 

[Dirk]

I'll bet you're a hoot at a party LOL, I'm kidding!

And that's what I get for spending the time to do something I shouldn't have done in the first place. Which is all on me... I'll learn, eventually...

Glad to hear you'll get a second set of eyes on it.