Pentair Intellicenter keeps dying

[ogdento]

hey @ajw22 have you had any experience with ICM's SPD devices?

Single Phase Surge Protection Archives

Learn more about Single Phase Surge Protection from ICM Controls. ISO Certified manufacturer.

www.icmcontrols.com

Or how about anything like their line voltage monitor:

ICM492

Learn more about ICM492 from ICM Controls. ISO Certified manufacturer.

www.icmcontrols.com

I've never used one - and I don't know if it's fast enough to catch a transient or surge - but it records any faults, so I was wondering if it might help folks with service irregularities and/or surge issues

 

[ajw22]

hey @ajw22 have you had any experience with ICM's SPD devices?

Single Phase Surge Protection Archives

Learn more about Single Phase Surge Protection from ICM Controls. ISO Certified manufacturer.

www.icmcontrols.com

Or how about anything like their line voltage monitor:

ICM492

Learn more about ICM492 from ICM Controls. ISO Certified manufacturer.

www.icmcontrols.com

I've never used one - and I don't know if it's fast enough to catch a transient or surge - but it records any faults, so I was wondering if it might help folks with service irregularities and/or surge issues

Nope, no hands on experience. My house power has been very stable except for the one storm incident.

 

[Killer Squirrel]

I've taken the next level of precautions that I can and have installed a box with a UPS - that UPS is on a single breaker and will power the IntelliCenter. Hopefully this will create another layer of protection and isolation from the main power grid and keep it from blowing up!

 

[wireform]

I've taken the next level of precautions that I can and have installed a box with a UPS - that UPS is on a single breaker and will power the IntelliCenter. Hopefully this will create another layer of protection and isolation from the main power grid and keep it from blowing up!

View attachment 538562

Although it may work who knows but the design doesn't exactly fit the application. A better choice would have been https://yk8vw.app.goo.gl/dj4FdHDDzu3ShWVK9
or
Amazon.com

 

[ogdento]

That Intermatic PS3000 (amazon link) looks great for the pool sub-panel

He's already got a Square-D HEPD80 at his main panel... @Killer Squirrel, did you get one for the pool sub yet?

 

[wireform]

I see no sub panel which I assume he has a large cb in his main to feed the pentair control. He's still better off having a surge protection close to the pool which can be right in the pentair box for the best possible protection.

 

[ogdento]

apologies @wireform, I call the big tan box a sub-panel (Pentair is fancy and calls it a load center if it has a breaker base)... but yeah, that's where he should put it.

 

[Killer Squirrel]

Yes, the Pentair load center is one of my sub panels (along with house and garage) that are fed from my main panel at the pole, which is where the current SPD is. I can add that pool/spa SPD to the load center as well, it certainly wouldn't hurt. That one never came in up my searches when I was looking, but it looks perfect. The UPS I'm hoping will isolate it even more just for the finicky IntelliCenter board.

 

[ogdento]

ok cool, this makes sense now. for some reason I thought you'd already added another one to the pool panel.

I had a few ideas/questions regarding your exploding electronics...

1. have your neighbors had any similar problems with dying electronics?... my neighbor's service is on a different utility transformer than mine, and a while back his router blew up. shortly afterward - maybe a day? - the transformer on the pole caught fire. something was up with that pole, and i'm guessing it caused a wild swing in his service voltage
2. have you checked the voltages at your main panel from each hot leg to the neutral? wondering if you've got a loose neutral... that could cause an imbalance on your panel legs which could fry stuff
3. at your pool sub-panel, check the voltage from each each hot leg to the neutral (looking for loose neutral again). also check from neutral to ground... the two are tied together at the main panel and separated at the sub-panel... and there would be no voltage from neutral to ground unless something was loose or damaged
4. do any of your lights dim, flicker, or get real bright when something with a large load kicks on at your house (fridge/micro/ac/dryer etc)? any bulbs burning out faster than normal?
5. has there been any extra load added to the utility pole transformer recently? i.e. something new at your house, or any new houses recently added to the same transformer?
6. are the service entrance wires to your main panel in good shape? (both from the utilty pole, and at your weather head where the poco connects to you)

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to get something like that ICM492 to monitor the line voltage, but that unit only measures 1 of your 120v legs. You'd either want two of them (one on each 120v leg) or another unit that will do them both.

 

[ogdento]

His system transformer is wired for 120v...
So if we go with the assumption that an over-voltage on the system transformer is blowing his boards (remember, the 32v max input pins are all burned)... If he changed it to 240v, a loose neutral would be eliminated as a potential cause since the neutral isn't used in that configuration.

 

[Killer Squirrel]

So update... I checked the hot legs to neutral and neutral to ground and all was correct. I have also added that pool/spa SPD recommended above to the pool load center. I was able to get pentair to send out one more set of boards, I got it up and running, everything working fine. Lasted about 3 days and the personality board blew the same U1 chip. I am now at a total loss, since the main board is still working just fine. What's more weird is that the main board stayed powered even when the breaker and ups was turned off, just like I had explained earlier. The screen goes dim, but you can still see it and everything still responds - I can turn on and off circuits, go into all the menu settings, etc. I sat there and removed each and every plug to make sure it wasn't what was powering the board and it stayed on till I removed the onboard battery plug. So I am at a complete loss now, the main board works just fine, even now, it just can't recognize the spa or aux circuits handled by the personality board. How can the personality board get blown when it is powered through the main board, and that is still working just fine?? I no longer know what to do, I am beginning to think that I just cannot have an automated pool.

 

[ogdento]

hey, sent you a pm, but just to re-cap and add another thought...

at this point, if I was in your position I'd want to do a few things:
1. re-wire the intellicenter system transformer for 240v to eliminate any possibility of a bad neutral causing your problem (a bad neutral cannot change the voltage if you re-wire for 240v because there is no neutral involved). it might prevent your new main board from dying!
2. try to figure out why the system is staying on when the breaker is shut off... it's got to be getting power from somewhere. thinking out loud - and if it's not the on-board battery - could it be something on the comm port or potentially a relay or valve connected to the main board that's feeing power in somehow? does this still happen if you disconnect all valve/relay/comm-port connections?
3. i wonder if you can call your power company and get them to test or monitor the power quality of your service drop or something? (not sure if they'd admit to any faults, but it's worth a shot). maybe there's a bad transformer down the street or something.

 

[ajw22]

What UPS are you using?

 

[Killer Squirrel]

I can definitely wire the transformer for 240v if that may help things. For the powering itself issue, I removed each and every plug on the board one at a time and checked the screen for power after each plug was removed, both personality and main (including every relay, valve, ethernet, sensor, comm, etc) before finally only the 2-pin battery plug was left. That was finally when the screen shut off. Don't forget that a while back I put my multimeter on every one of those plugs to see if there was any kind of voltage present and only the heater plug had anything (it had the 24v).

Allen, the UPS I used is a 400VA UPS from Amazon, shown above in an earlier post. I won't be able to use the ups anymore if I wire the transformer 240v, though apparently it was a waste of money anyway since it is still happening.

 

[ajw22]

I am trying to understand if your UPS is a full time power conditioner that runs all power through the battery all the time, or a UPS that switches power to come from the battery when it senses a voltage dip.

A power conditioner should protect you against a floating neutral. A battery switching UPS may not.

If it is not a full time power conditioner it did nothing to prevent the problem.

I cannot tell without seeing the actual model used.

 

[Killer Squirrel]

Oh sorry about that, here is the model I purchased.

 

[ogdento]

don't want to interrupt Allen's thread on the UPS, but if - and I do mean IF because I'm not sure - if you've got a loose neutral situation, it could change the voltage to the system transformer. If a large load (refrigerator/compressor/etc) kicked on it would "unbalance" the two 120v hot legs... if the leg that your system transformer is on went from 120v to 170, the 18vac output will be a lot higher and by the time it's rectified on the board it may be above 32vdc (the max input of that chip). and this isn't something that the SPD would prevent. but this is really a stab in the dark.

here's some links on what a loose neutral is and what issues they can cause (i believe a similar situation can happen with a bad power pole transformer or failing insulators but i'm not an electrician)

ᐉ Floating Neutrals

An open or floating neutral ⚡ occurs when the neutral wire that balances ⭐ electric loads becomes disconnected. This can occur because of mechanical issues, weather events, human error or corrosion. A floating neutral is a dangerous situation that requires help from an electrician.

www.luminsmart.com

Power Company loose neutral

I am currently troubleshooting a power surge ( lighting strike) at a residence, after checking voltages coming from utility, which are 240v phase to phase and 120v phase to neutral on each side of incoming power. I starting turning branch circuits and voltages seem to vary when loads come on...

forums.mikeholt.com

 

[ogdento]

This picture shows how the personality boards get their power... the 24vac and 18vac inputs to the i5P top board are routed through to the i5P main board, and then routed to the personality boards via the expansion connector.



In the photo above, notice that the expansion connector has a split in it (below the leftmost yellow box I drew)... the upper bit is for the 24/18vac supply, and the lower bit is signal/data for the i5P. On this board, the upper bit has a single solid gold-plated trace for each of the 4 ac voltage connections but others have individual gold-plated traces that are all connected together.

Here's a comparison between the board I showed above that has solid traces, and another board that does not... the board on the right (the one some heathen sprayed yellow) has the individual connector traces that are still actually tied together. (The top 5 are tied together to make the 18vac connection, and the bottom 5 are tied together to make the 24vac connection. The middle one is unconnected):

vs

On my system, I get 31vac at the 24vac connection, and 20.6vac at the 18vac connection (the voltage is higher because there is no load)... what are you getting on yours? be very careful measuring the underside while the power is on, it can be a little fiddly.

 

[Killer Squirrel]

I'm getting 20.25 and 27.5

 

[Killer Squirrel]

What if I got something like this and put in inline between the breaker and transformer? I could set it to overvolt protect at 140v, which would still be plenty below any dangerous levels post transformer on either 18v or 24v circuits correct? I could get rid of the UPS altogether at that point since it wouldn't be doing anything for me.