Painted IG Gunite Pool. No Plaster, tile, or coping. For better or worse, the renovation has begun...

[Powderboy]

Although relatively new to TFP, we’ve already learned a lot from this site. Everyone here seems very helpful and knowledgeable, so hopefully some of you can offer good renovation/contractor recommendations.

We have a Sylvan ~22K gal IG gunite pool that is painted; no plaster, tile, or coping, just painted gunite with a wet-laid bluestone deck. The attached pictures should help to clarify. The house/pool was built in 1976 (46 years old) and we have owned it for 21 years. Other than adding a newer Jandy controller and heater about 15 years ago, we have not painted or invested in any improvements to the pool other than normal equipment maintenance/replacement. Overall, the paint has held up well but it is now worn through in some areas with significant (~1/4”) etching of the gunite shell in the deep end (can be seen in "Pool Overall" photo). The pool works OK and we use it every year, but it’s really starting to show its age, so it’s time for an upgrade.

We’re located in Northern NJ (Mendham) and would greatly appreciate recommendations for good pool contractors in our area. Our renovation timeframe is very flexible. For us, cost and timeline are less important than finding a contractor who takes pride in their work and can do a good job.

Regarding the renovation, since the pool is currently just a painted shell, and re-painting doesn’t seem to be a realistic option , I assume the pool will need new coping, tile, and plaster. As the bond beam is currently level with the top of the deck (see photos), I also assume the level of the deck will need to be raised to match the level of the new coping. All of this will likely add up to a lot of $$$, so any lower cost alternatives that anyone can suggest would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions that you may have.

 

[sktn77a]

Are you absolutely sure there is no plaster under the paint?

 

[Newdude]

It might not be wallet friendly, but sprucing up that diamond in the rough is going to pay off HUGE.

I'm in to root for ya. Hang tight for thoughts.

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum.

Might want to research Aquabrite EcoFinish. Might be a good application. But you need to do due diligence.

 

[Powderboy]

Thanks for the comments guys. Yes Keith, I'm absolutely sure there's no plaster under the paint, but everyone who has looked at the pool has asked the same question. When you think about it though, if paint were a real option (as it was 40+ years ago), then this type of construction (w/o plaster, tile, and coping) makes a lot of sense and would be very economical. It's actually a nice minimalist look, which we do like. Unfortunately, pool paint just isn't what it used to be.
I did think about Marty's suggestion of potentially using Aquabrite, plastering over the entire shell including over the bond beam and then coating it all with Aquabrite. (I assume the plaster would need to wrap over the edge to cover the bond beam since I would be worried about it chipping off on the un-coped edges if it didn't). I did a lot of research on Aquabrite (read everything I could find on this site), but I'm a bit leery of the long-term viability of such an option, particularly with my non-standard application. I saw that @bdavis466 got out of the Aquabrite business because it wasn't very profitable, so the long-term viability of the product itself is also a bit questionable IMO. I would be interested in Brian's opinion regarding the viability of using it for my application, however. If he thinks it would work, then I might pursue it further. Unfortunately, there's only one builder in my area that applies Aquabrite, so options there are also limited.
Another lower-cost option I was considering is to go the conventional plaster/tile/coping route and then pull up the existing bluestone and dry lay it on top of the existing concrete base. The additional ~2" height added by the coping seems like it might be enough room for a good base of gravel/stone dust on top of the concrete base. The concrete seems to be in pretty good shape as far as I can tell, presumably as good as 4" - 6" of compacted gravel that's typically used as a base under dry-laid stone. Does anyone out there have any experience with something like this? Although it's a bit hard to tell from the pictures, access to the pool area is very limited (no access whatsoever for any kind of a machine), so not having to remove/replace the existing concrete deck base would be a big $$$ saver.

 

[ajw22]

I think you have a unique situation that few builders will be willing to touch at a reasonable price.

No one would build a painted pool with no coping now. And likely any builders and people who do this work and have experience way back when with that type of pool have retired. So the folks in the pool business today are scared away from touching a project like yours.

I think your renovation will cost as much as a new pool build and maybe more. Yes, you already have the hold in the ground and a gunite shell but that is all you are starting with. And before you can begin building there will be a bunch of work to do to demo the deck, strip the paint off of everything, and get it ready to move forward.

I think your best shot is to effectively do an owner build. You need to plan out the work, engage the subcontractors, and manage the renovation. I doubt you will find a pool builder in our area to take this on at a reasonable price.

 

[JamesW]

For us, cost and timeline are less important than finding a contractor who takes pride in their work and can do a good job.

All of this will likely add up to a lot of $$$, so any lower cost alternatives that anyone can suggest would also be greatly appreciated.

First, you seem to say that cost is not a big deal, but then you indicate that cost is an issue?

What is your budget?

 

[Powderboy]

I really don't have a budget at this time. Let's just say that I'm willing to pay what it takes to get the job done correctly. It's the "getting the job done correctly part" that has me worried. I'm sure people who can do it are out there, the problem is finding them. Allen's comments about doing an owner build really hit home for me since I think I'd be better able to control the quality of the build that way, except that I know nothing about building pools.

 

[ajw22]

except that I know nothing about building pools.

Do you want to learn?

I think many people here knew nothing about building pools when they began the planning for their owner builds.

You can learn a lot here, good and bad, reading the Under Construction section.

Construction Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[JamesW]

I would do a full renovation with coping, tile, plaster and decking redone.

I really don't have a budget at this time. Let's just say that I'm willing to pay what it takes to get the job done correctly.

You have to have some idea about what your goals are vs. what the costs are going to be.

Are you ready, willing and able to spend $100,000.00 or something closer to $20,000.00?

What does it mean to "get the job done correctly"?

What is your minimum desired outcome and best case?

If you request a proposal, you have to be able to specify exactly what you are asking a company to do.

 

[Powderboy]

Great reference Allen. I will definitely be checking it out. I'm a die-hard DIY'er and have successfully taken on similar big projects with little-to-no experience, but I was hoping to avoid this one. I may need to re-evaluate my priorities...

 

[Powderboy]

Sorry for the long time between posts, but I’ve been doing a lot of research on all things pool. I’ve also spoken to a mason and a couple of PBs about the project. At this point, I think I have a rough plan but I need some advice on a few things.

Although it’s hard to tell from the photos, the height of the bond beam varies by as much a 2.75 inches, so the bond beam will need to be leveled before tile and coping can be added. There’s also a 2.25” difference between the heights of the skimmers, so I think that both skimmers will also need to be replaced in order for everything to look right with the new coping and tile. The concrete slab under my existing deck is 8 inches thick with expansion joints every 10-12 feet extending through the entire thickness of the slab. It’s in generally good condition with no heaving or major issues. As such, both PBs and the mason recommended leaving the existing slab in place and pouring a new slab on top of it. Since the bond beam needs to be leveled anyway, a leveling layer that’s between 2.25” and 5” thick will provide enough additional height to pour a 4” minimum (6.75” max) thickness slab for the new deck. So my rough plan is as follows:

• Remove and replace the existing skimmers consistent with the new finished height of the bond beam.
• Add a 2.25” - 5” leveling layer to the bond beam. Since the higher bond beam and new coping would increase the height of the first step to over 12”, I would also build up the heights of the existing steps in the shallow end to yield a consistent step height of approximately 10” each (currently about 9” each).
• Install new porcelain tile and bluestone coping.
• Pour the new deck slab and install new bluestone decking.
• Install plaster and startup the pool.

I have a few questions regarding the bond beam leveling layer. What kind of concrete should I use to level the bond beam? One of the PBs I talked to recommended using Sika non-shrink grout and the other recommended using gunite in order to get the best possible bond to the old concrete layer. Is it true that using gunite would result in a better bond than poured concrete? It makes sense to me that multiple layers of gunite applied over a period of a few days would bond together very well, but can the same be said for a new layer of gunite applied to 45 year old concrete? Assuming I go the gunite route, should the gunite be applied without the use of a bonding agent, or do you recommend applying some kind of bond coat to the old concrete before shooting the new gunite? If so, what would you recommend? Should I use rebar in the new bond beam layer and, if so, how much?

Assuming it will result in the best bond, I’m leaning toward the gunite option since the cold joint will run under the new tile for the entire circumference of the pool, so achieving the best possible bond will be important to minimize cracking under the tile. I would also have the gunite crew build up the step heights while they’re doing the bond beam. I realize that gunite may not be the cheapest option, but I could install the rebar and forms myself before having the gunite shot, but mixing and placing 100 bags of poured concrete isn’t something that would want to do myself. I also plan on installing the coping and tile myself, which should help with the overall cost.

 

[HermanTX]

Remove and replace the existing skimmers consistent with the new finished height of the bond beam.

Do you plan to also replace all the plumbing from the new skimmer to the equipment pad? My guess is that it may be smaller diameter PVC and you may wish to replace that with 2" or larger depending on your flow requirements.

Do you have sufficient number of returns going back to the pool?

 

[MAPR-Austin]

Man, looking at the beauty of the setting I would be hesitant to tear everything up to put in a new deck. There really is something to be said about patina.

I feel like adding material almost always ends up with a cold joint forming regardless of how well it is installed or what type of material is used. In your case that cold joint would be behind the tile and would probably cause issues.

If it were me I would:

1) Have a concrete cutting company come in and saw cut the beam down a few inches so that it is all level, cut the skimmer mouths down accordingly as well.
2) Hydroblast the paint off (sandblast if you must but it makes a heck of a mess).
3) Set new tile. Top of the tile not to extend above the new bond beam layer.
4) Remove/Install new skimmers. Please make sure they pressure test before and after installation!
4) Pour new concrete cantilever coping (unlike cast stone, poured in place concrete will allow you to vary the slope of the coping so that it is uniform around the front and matches up with the deck without toe-stubbers in the back).
5) Plaster the pool with a plaster/exposed aggregate.

That way you keep the deck, avoid tearing the whole yard apart for new concrete, and save a lot of money/time.

If you have an 8" concrete deck slab, I bet that pool is built like nuclear bunker. Are there any cracks in the shell? If not, that is more evidence of the pool being properly built.

 

[Bperry]

I was also going to ask about cutting the bond beam down to level it out. Then you can leave the deck as-is and add the coping to match. I guess if the decking is not level, then that wrinkles the plan a bit.

This pool must have been a DIY owner build with an 8” thick deck. Or at least a concrete contractor owner.

 

[Powderboy]

Thanks for the comments guys. Regarding the plumbing, I do plan on replacing the existing plumbing when I replace the skimmers. The existing lines are old-style flex lines which are prone to degradation over time, so replacing them makes sense.

Cutting down the bond beam is an interesting idea, but as @Bperry surmised, the deck follows the level of the bond beam so it's out of level as well. I may be missing something, but I don’t see how the poured in place coping would be able to compensate for such a large (2.75") variation. If the high spots on the bond beam were cut down to be level with the lowest point, then the bond beam would still be even with the existing deck at the current low point, leaving no room for the new coping. If I cut it down even more, say by 4.75” at the high spot and 2” at the low spot, then the thickness of the coping would need to vary by 2.75” in order to keep the underside of the coping level while lining up the top side of the coping with the existing deck. If the variation were a lot less (say about 1”), then I think it might work out, but I don’t see how to make it work with such a large variation.

FYI, the pool was built in 1976, at the same time as the house, when concrete was cheap. The house and pool are built into the side of a steep shale ridge (57% of my 4 acre lot is greater than a 25% grade), so there’s a LOT of concrete in both the pool and the house foundation. Other than shrinkage cracks, there are no structural cracks in the pool, so it was definitely built to last. The “bond beam” is 14” wide and I’d be willing to bet that the entire pool is the same thickness throughout. Puts a nuclear bunker to shame…

Although the existing deck still looks pretty good from a distance, every single piece of bluestone is loose and all of the grout is cracked, so replacing the deck isn’t a bad idea. As long as I leave the existing slab in place, I won’t have to tear up too much of the yard to pour the new deck slab on top, simply because there’s no way to get any piece of equipment larger than a mini-track hoe in there. As such, the concrete for the new slab will need to be pumped in from the driveway.

In order to help minimize the adverse effects of a crack in the cold joint, I’m planning to put an isolation membrane between the tile and the mortar bed, essentially the same build-up as recommended for installation of glass tile. Since I’m planning to prep the bond beam myself, I’m willing to add as much steel as necessary to help reduce the severity of any cracks which might develop. Also, as can be seen in a few of the photos, there are pieces of bluestone set into the bond beam at regular intervals. Since these will need to be chipped out prior to addition of the leveling layer, the depressions left over should help to act as keys for the new concrete. I could even cut more keys into the existing bond beam if that might help. Any other ideas to help minimize the effects of a crack in the cold joint?

 

[MAPR-Austin]

Yeah, with that much difference you are going to have a really noticeable difference in pitch of the coping as you go around the pool. There are some forms which would let you vary the height of the face of the coping, but I think that also would look a bit weird.

 

[Bperry]

Thanks for the comments guys. Regarding the plumbing, I do plan on replacing the existing plumbing when I replace the skimmers. The existing lines are old-style flex lines which are prone to degradation over time, so replacing them makes sense.

Cutting down the bond beam is an interesting idea, but as @Bperry surmised, the deck follows the level of the bond beam so it's out of level as well. I may be missing something, but I don’t see how the poured in place coping would be able to compensate for such a large (2.75") variation. If the high spots on the bond beam were cut down to be level with the lowest point, then the bond beam would still be even with the existing deck at the current low point, leaving no room for the new coping. If I cut it down even more, say by 4.75” at the high spot and 2” at the low spot, then the thickness of the coping would need to vary by 2.75” in order to keep the underside of the coping level while lining up the top side of the coping with the existing deck. If the variation were a lot less (say about 1”), then I think it might work out, but I don’t see how to make it work with such a large variation.

FYI, the pool was built in 1976, at the same time as the house, when concrete was cheap. The house and pool are built into the side of a steep shale ridge (57% of my 4 acre lot is greater than a 25% grade), so there’s a LOT of concrete in both the pool and the house foundation. Other than shrinkage cracks, there are no structural cracks in the pool, so it was definitely built to last. The “bond beam” is 14” wide and I’d be willing to bet that the entire pool is the same thickness throughout. Puts a nuclear bunker to shame…

Although the existing deck still looks pretty good from a distance, every single piece of bluestone is loose and all of the grout is cracked, so replacing the deck isn’t a bad idea. As long as I leave the existing slab in place, I won’t have to tear up too much of the yard to pour the new deck slab on top, simply because there’s no way to get any piece of equipment larger than a mini-track hoe in there. As such, the concrete for the new slab will need to be pumped in from the driveway.

In order to help minimize the adverse effects of a crack in the cold joint, I’m planning to put an isolation membrane between the tile and the mortar bed, essentially the same build-up as recommended for installation of glass tile. Since I’m planning to prep the bond beam myself, I’m willing to add as much steel as necessary to help reduce the severity of any cracks which might develop. Also, as can be seen in a few of the photos, there are pieces of bluestone set into the bond beam at regular intervals. Since these will need to be chipped out prior to addition of the leveling layer, the depressions left over should help to act as keys for the new concrete. I could even cut more keys into the existing bond beam if that might help. Any other ideas to help minimize the effects of a crack in the cold joint?

Is the idea to pour a new cantilever style deck? If the bluestone is coming out can’t you just cut the bond beam down to level and give it an interesting finish, then pour new concrete to replace the bluestone?

 

[Powderboy]

I was planning on a wet laid bluestone deck with bluestone coping, so not cantilevered. However, I can see how a poured cantilever concrete deck could work. It would require at least 5" thick coping in order to result in a 4" minimum slab thickness, and there would be a step in the slab (either up or down depending on location) around the perimeter of the pool. (The attached drawing shows what I mean.) There's a possibility that it might crack in one of those areas, but most likely not since settling shouldn't be an issue.

Unfortunately, I really don't like the look of a concrete deck, stamped or otherwise. Per the comments by @MAPR-Austin above, we're trying to maintain the natural look that we currently have. I'm sure that a stamped concrete deck can look "OK" until it cracks or discolors, but it can't hold a candle to the natural look of bluestone IMO.

 

[kimkats]

I am in to watch and this one! LOVE the setting!!