- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
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- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
It was obviously worth it. Your pool and yard and view are really stunning.
Ha, so are your photography skills!
Operation of Infinity Edge and Zero Edge Pools
- Thread starter setsailsoon
- Start date
Ha, so are your photography skills!
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,809
- Pool Size
- 28000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
"I didn't quite understand the valve setup. If the sprinkler valve is followed by a float valve, you can't use a sprinkler valve in that application. And that might explain why it failed. Sprinkler valves are not rated to be under constant pressure on the output side. They're expecting a set of sprinklers, which only offer reduced pressure while on (because they're sprinkling) and no pressure when they are off (because the sprinklers drain off any residual pressure)."
Dirk, it's a float switch not valve. When the level in the pool drops switch closes the circuit to open the sprinkler valve. Same way they work normally just this is a float switch instead of a timer switch. Sorry for the confusion.
Chris
Dirk, it's a float switch not valve. When the level in the pool drops switch closes the circuit to open the sprinkler valve. Same way they work normally just this is a float switch instead of a timer switch. Sorry for the confusion.
Chris
- May 23, 2015
- 25,695
- Pool Size
- 16000
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- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I think in order to verify @JamesW ‘s calculations we must have a gathering of all TFP experts, guides, mods, Admins, and a randomly selected group of well known users to all meet up at Chris’s house and do at least a days worth of very in-depth testing. A cannonball stress-test will be required before we can sign-off on the accuracy of the calculations. Barbecue and beer will be necessary as we want to make sure the load calculations match up with the intended application. @Dirk will devise the measuring devices to be used in taking data and @mas985 will be on-hand to do proper hydraulic calculations and finite-element flow simulations.
We should set aside a second day for any additional testing that comes from our learning.
We should set aside a second day for any additional testing that comes from our learning.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Thanks. I misread "switch." If there is nothing downstream of the sprinkler valve, so that when it's open it just dumps into the basin, then it's OK-ish for that application. If the exit of it, or the exit of a pipe that is connected to it, is under water, then it's not the ideal application for a sprinkler valve. They do have anti-siphon capabilities (assuming that you have a typical sprinkler valve), but they're not a particularly robust backflow preventer. Also, the valve itself should be some distance above the highest possible water level (12" or 18" is a typical spec for that). In your application, that probably means above the top of the basin, not the pool's coping. If the valve is below the top of the basin, then it's not really providing anti-siphon protection.
If the valve's outlet is well above the basin, so that there is a constant air-gap between it and the water, that's the best setup. In that case, there'd really be two backflow preventers: the one in the sprinkler valve and the air gap. If there is such an air-gap, you don't need the anti-siphon component at all. Any solenoid valve will work in that application, the air-gap alone provides all the backflow prevention required (and it's pretty much failure proof).
I'm sure you already know all that. But you strike me as someone that wants everything to be right. You'll write all that up in your Wiki! (Hint, hint!)
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I love this idea, but if there is a pool cam, can I just attend remotely? I'll require extra mirrors, to cover all the angles, but if properly placed I'll be able to triangulate the measurement data. And of course test the cam and mirror angles, as well. I'll still need the vittles and beer shipped to my home address, but other than that, I'm in!
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,106
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,809
- Pool Size
- 28000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Dirk and others if you think a Wiki would really be helpful I'll take a shot at one for infinity and zero edge pool build and operation. How about an outline like this:
Design Considerations (not calcs but factors that drive the calcs)
PS Maybe add a short paragraph about how to effectively use technical storms that erupt amongst certain experts that feed on each other and quickly become wildfires and contain vast amounts of useful information for us normal mortals?
Design Considerations (not calcs but factors that drive the calcs)
Hydraulics
Basin size
Control and automation
Special construction techniques and specs
Personal preferences
OperationBasin level
Spa and Sundeck
Managing operating costs
ChrisPS Maybe add a short paragraph about how to effectively use technical storms that erupt amongst certain experts that feed on each other and quickly become wildfires and contain vast amounts of useful information for us normal mortals?
Last edited:
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,809
- Pool Size
- 28000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
This little chart that @JamesW provided was pivotal for me. It led to almost doubling the main pump capacity and has spectacular visual impact for my 32' infinity wall. Since it's a vs pump I can run also run at almost no cost most of the time and only turn it up when there's somebody there to enjoy the view.
Chris
Chris
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,809
- Pool Size
- 28000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Basin, pool toys, and robots
The way my zero edge and infinity edge work is they have great visual effect and that's partly because the entire pool is a skimmer. All floating debris quickly transports through the gutter and over the infinity edge into the basin resulting in a sparkling completely full pool all the time. This also needs to be maintained by occasionally walking down the edge with a fine mesh net on a pole for a pool with an enclosure. If you don't have an enclosure it's easy to do from the back side of the pool. The basin surface is also huge compared to skimmers so you will be able to extend the cleaning intervals.
In a traditional pool toys left in just "congregate" to the downwind edge so you can pick them up easily. With a zero edge/infinity arrangement everything normally moves toward the basin. Most of the larger toys get caught on the edge and won't fall over into the basin but we've found pool noodles easily get swept over. So it's a good idea to remove them before you stop using the pool.
I was worried about the robot accidentally climbing out of the pool or over the infinity edge. Fortunately this doesn't seem to happen. The bot just floats vertically and scrubs along the edge just like a traditional pool but it really isn't necessary to do this since there's no water level line because the pool is full all the time. So if you can remove this part of the cycle and let the bot focus on bottom cleaning it works great. For our Aiper this is pretty easy to do. We'll eventually end up leaving it in eco mode most of the time that does a bottom clean every other day for 4 days then recharge. Once a month or so we can do a full clean that does the walls and it's kind of funny to watch it periodically pop through the top to do a little edge cleaning since we can't turn that off in full clean mode.
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
The way my zero edge and infinity edge work is they have great visual effect and that's partly because the entire pool is a skimmer. All floating debris quickly transports through the gutter and over the infinity edge into the basin resulting in a sparkling completely full pool all the time. This also needs to be maintained by occasionally walking down the edge with a fine mesh net on a pole for a pool with an enclosure. If you don't have an enclosure it's easy to do from the back side of the pool. The basin surface is also huge compared to skimmers so you will be able to extend the cleaning intervals.
In a traditional pool toys left in just "congregate" to the downwind edge so you can pick them up easily. With a zero edge/infinity arrangement everything normally moves toward the basin. Most of the larger toys get caught on the edge and won't fall over into the basin but we've found pool noodles easily get swept over. So it's a good idea to remove them before you stop using the pool.
I was worried about the robot accidentally climbing out of the pool or over the infinity edge. Fortunately this doesn't seem to happen. The bot just floats vertically and scrubs along the edge just like a traditional pool but it really isn't necessary to do this since there's no water level line because the pool is full all the time. So if you can remove this part of the cycle and let the bot focus on bottom cleaning it works great. For our Aiper this is pretty easy to do. We'll eventually end up leaving it in eco mode most of the time that does a bottom clean every other day for 4 days then recharge. Once a month or so we can do a full clean that does the walls and it's kind of funny to watch it periodically pop through the top to do a little edge cleaning since we can't turn that off in full clean mode.
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
Last edited:
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,809
- Pool Size
- 28000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Fixes for poor elevation control during construction
There are none! I mention this because elevation control is everything and can't be fixed any other way than partially draining, tile removal, and re-form the top edge. This must be tightly controlled during construction. Most of the tile craft in my area us a water level which works fine but it's easy to be off if they are rushed and/or there's too much activity going on while they work. I found it best to have a very clear conversation about how critical this is in a kick-off meeting before they start. You have to say things like "being off on elevation doesn't just look bad it means this pool won't work". I also let them know I would be independently checking elevation with my zip level. This isn't because I don't trust them it's to help them be successful. Getting the level control you need takes time and the only way to do this is to do this part on time and materials reimbursable. If you do this lump sum they maximize profit by being quick, in most cases too quick. To get this right it costs more so develop a constructive relationship with your tile installer. They literally make or break the pool operability.
On one of my spot checks I found the edge at one end of the pool was almost 1/2" off. I double-checked and it was indeed off by this much. Turns out that they "dress" the top edge before they start adding tile to make sure they only need minor adjustments with the tile adhesive. We couldn't get the levels to match and finally figured out the water level was pinched under some construction material. When removed it matched exactly. Took a little more time to level it out but disaster averted. I ended up paying for an extra 1/2 day to correct this and it was well worth it!
Celebrate success with the crew and be willing to pay extra for quality. I'd do my spot checks when the crew took breaks. This way I didn't interfere with them getting the work done. Sort of accidentally I figured out they were all watching intently as I checked and absolutely loved it when I gave the "thumbs up". When they did extraordinary well I'd offer to provide lunch next day. Cost me under $100 each meal for the entire finishing crew and I got the same quality as the top builders in the area in return... pretty good deal!
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
There are none! I mention this because elevation control is everything and can't be fixed any other way than partially draining, tile removal, and re-form the top edge. This must be tightly controlled during construction. Most of the tile craft in my area us a water level which works fine but it's easy to be off if they are rushed and/or there's too much activity going on while they work. I found it best to have a very clear conversation about how critical this is in a kick-off meeting before they start. You have to say things like "being off on elevation doesn't just look bad it means this pool won't work". I also let them know I would be independently checking elevation with my zip level. This isn't because I don't trust them it's to help them be successful. Getting the level control you need takes time and the only way to do this is to do this part on time and materials reimbursable. If you do this lump sum they maximize profit by being quick, in most cases too quick. To get this right it costs more so develop a constructive relationship with your tile installer. They literally make or break the pool operability.
On one of my spot checks I found the edge at one end of the pool was almost 1/2" off. I double-checked and it was indeed off by this much. Turns out that they "dress" the top edge before they start adding tile to make sure they only need minor adjustments with the tile adhesive. We couldn't get the levels to match and finally figured out the water level was pinched under some construction material. When removed it matched exactly. Took a little more time to level it out but disaster averted. I ended up paying for an extra 1/2 day to correct this and it was well worth it!
Celebrate success with the crew and be willing to pay extra for quality. I'd do my spot checks when the crew took breaks. This way I didn't interfere with them getting the work done. Sort of accidentally I figured out they were all watching intently as I checked and absolutely loved it when I gave the "thumbs up". When they did extraordinary well I'd offer to provide lunch next day. Cost me under $100 each meal for the entire finishing crew and I got the same quality as the top builders in the area in return... pretty good deal!
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
Last edited:
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,809
- Pool Size
- 28000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Manage operating costs
A long infinity edge pool looks it's best when there's a LOT of water moving over it. If I want even just 3/8" deep over the edge it takes over 260 gpm for my 32 foot long edge! Thank goodness @JamesW pointed this out during the design phase with this simple table:
This caused me to almost double the size of the pump to 5 hp compared to a traditional pool of this size. Only problem for me using this pump is it uses well over 4kw to run at high speed. Even with our favorable power costs in Florida this is almost $400 per month. But this effect is only needed for aesthetics. If we aren't close enough to see it it's not needed. So I set the pump to run high speed for 10 min when it first starts and 10 min at end of day to prime it. Rest of the day it runs much lower speed but enough to keep the gutters full and infinity edge wet. From a distance it looks superb! When we sit out in the afternoon or have guests over we boost the pump up to high speed for a few hours and it only costs a few bucks. My 5 hp commercial grade Pentair VS pump cost $3000 from Polytec. In the grand scheme that's not much more than a typical 2.7 hp pump. So even my capital cost wasn't that high.
One of the great things about a vs pump is I can drop down to about 1200 rpm most of the time I run the pump and it only consumes a couple hundred watts. So this big gorgeous pool looks like a million bucks and doesn't really cost much more than a traditional pool to operate. Below is a view of the pool in morning at 1200 rpm. I run this way from 7 am to 10 pm each day at about $15/mo. The 1.5 hp filter pump keeps water crystal clear running 4 hr per day at high speed for another $15/mo. I'm quite certain I can optimize this down to $5/mo when I have time. Thank goodness TFP recognized early on that pump sizing and operation based on turnover was not the right way to design a pool. Amazingly many designers and building departments still do it this way.
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
A long infinity edge pool looks it's best when there's a LOT of water moving over it. If I want even just 3/8" deep over the edge it takes over 260 gpm for my 32 foot long edge! Thank goodness @JamesW pointed this out during the design phase with this simple table:
This caused me to almost double the size of the pump to 5 hp compared to a traditional pool of this size. Only problem for me using this pump is it uses well over 4kw to run at high speed. Even with our favorable power costs in Florida this is almost $400 per month. But this effect is only needed for aesthetics. If we aren't close enough to see it it's not needed. So I set the pump to run high speed for 10 min when it first starts and 10 min at end of day to prime it. Rest of the day it runs much lower speed but enough to keep the gutters full and infinity edge wet. From a distance it looks superb! When we sit out in the afternoon or have guests over we boost the pump up to high speed for a few hours and it only costs a few bucks. My 5 hp commercial grade Pentair VS pump cost $3000 from Polytec. In the grand scheme that's not much more than a typical 2.7 hp pump. So even my capital cost wasn't that high.
One of the great things about a vs pump is I can drop down to about 1200 rpm most of the time I run the pump and it only consumes a couple hundred watts. So this big gorgeous pool looks like a million bucks and doesn't really cost much more than a traditional pool to operate. Below is a view of the pool in morning at 1200 rpm. I run this way from 7 am to 10 pm each day at about $15/mo. The 1.5 hp filter pump keeps water crystal clear running 4 hr per day at high speed for another $15/mo. I'm quite certain I can optimize this down to $5/mo when I have time. Thank goodness TFP recognized early on that pump sizing and operation based on turnover was not the right way to design a pool. Amazingly many designers and building departments still do it this way.
I hope this is helpful.
Chris
Last edited:
- May 23, 2015
- 25,695
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Your pool journey deserves to be in a magazine write-up. Pool Magazine, Pool and Spa News, local Home Mag, etc, should do a story on your owner build experience and show off some of those nice pictures.
Thanks for the journey!! It was fun to watch it all unfold.
Thanks for the journey!! It was fun to watch it all unfold.
It is important to remind people about the importance of sizing the plumbing correctly.
Many builders undersize the plumbing and this can limit the performance of the system and increase the cost of operation.
For an infinity edge, you usually have static suction head loss that needs to be accounted for because the pump will be above the basin by several feet even if the system is at ground level.
Pipe Size and Flow Rates.
You want to keep the water velocity below 6 ft/sec on the suction and below 8 ft/sec on the pressure side of the pump.| Pipe Size | 6 ft/sec | 8 ft/sec |
|---|---|---|
| 1.5" | 38 GPM | 51 GPM |
| 2" | 63 GPM | 84 GPM |
| 2.5 | 90 GPM | 119 GPM |
| 3.0" | 138 GPM | 184 GPM |
| 4.0" | 235 GPM | 312 GPM |
Last edited:
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,809
- Pool Size
- 28000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Great point James! As a result suction from the basin all the way back to the pad is 4". My plumber said he's never seen a residential pool with 4" pipe. Works like a charm though!
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Seems like it's mostly written. Just gathering your various threads and posts and copy/paste? @ajw22 can weigh in on the details of assembling a Wiki article.
12" Pipe would allow up to 2,093 GPM, which is 65.5 GPM/Ft, which would get you about 1.5" of lift.
15" pipe would allow 3,232 GPM, which would be 2" of lift..
I suppose 3/8" is Ok, but it's not 2", just sayin'.
Here are some more numbers if you want to get some real flow.
4" lift = 9,143. 25" ID pipe.
8" lift = 25,862 GPM. 42" ID Pipe.
16" lift = 73,158 GPM. 70" Diameter pipe.
32" lift = 206,948 GPM. 120" Diameter pipe (10 feet).
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,809
- Pool Size
- 28000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
- Oct 25, 2015
- 5,809
- Pool Size
- 28000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-60 Plus
Very kind words Matt. Thanks much! I had a great time building it and as you know I got a much better pool with all the help from TFP!
Chris
- May 23, 2015
- 25,695
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Go BIG or go home … about sums it up …