Operation of Infinity Edge and Zero Edge Pools

[JamesW]

 

[JoyfulNoise]

That’s barely a 3” lift at most …

 

[mas985]

In a traditional pool toys left in just "congregate" to the downwind edge so you can pick them up easily. With a zero edge/infinity arrangement everything normally moves toward the basin. Most of the larger toys get caught on the edge and won't fall over into the basin but we've found pool noodles easily get swept over. So it's a good idea to remove them before you stop using the pool.

If you drop the edge height a little, it might be enough to trap the other toys.

Light reflection off an infinity edge is governed by Snell's Law so lowering the edge height should not affect the infinity effect much as long as the water is higher than the edge. Plus it saves on energy costs.

Also, I was just curious why you did not use a passive auto fill bucket for the trough instead using active components?

 

[setsailsoon]

If you drop the edge height a little, it might be enough to trap the other toys.

Light reflection off an infinity edge is governed by Snell's Law so lowering the edge height should not affect the infinity effect much as long as the water is higher than the edge. Plus it saves on energy costs.

Also, I was just curious why you did not use a passive auto fill bucket for the trough instead using active components?

View attachment 612616

Mark,
Thanks much, yes we sort of discovered this accidentally. It also helps to get bigger toys but I still have the occasional noodle over the wall.

The idea with active control was to give me some flexibility to control the level in a range since access is limited with my full screen enclosure. But I may revert to a simple float valve like this one. I've never seen the bucket type before. Do you have a link or brand? Now that I've been operating this a couple months I think my control philosophy for the basin might have been over complicated. I can protect the pump with a shutdown on low flow at the pad and reduce the electronics at the basin to a single high level sensor that shuts down water supply when a torrential downpour happens or the normal float level fails.

Thanks for the great idea!

Chris

 

[mas985]

Here are a few:

CMP Auto Fill - CMP Water Leveler - INYOPools.com

Swimming Pool Auto Fills & Water Levelers - INYOpools.com

www.inyopools.com

A cheaper version:

Amazon.com

The nice thing about these is that they can be placed anywhere including both inside and outside the trough and any distance away from the trough. The only requirement is that the water level inside the bucket at the float setting is at the same elevation as the trough water level as it is a purely gravity fed system. So it is possible to remote the bucket in an out of the way location. The only tricky part is setting the correct elevation.

Also, I had a float valve fail once and the valve did not fully shut off so it leaked a little water into the bucket instead of sealing. The pool level slowly increased and was eventually noticed. So failure is less of an issue.

Lastly, the bucket is somewhat isolated from the main water body so waves do not affect the float level as much. This is not a big deal but worth mentioning.

 

[setsailsoon]

Here are a few:

CMP Auto Fill - CMP Water Leveler - INYOPools.com

Swimming Pool Auto Fills & Water Levelers - INYOpools.com

www.inyopools.com

A cheaper version:

Amazon.com

The nice thing about these is that they can be placed anywhere including both inside and outside the trough and any distance away from the trough. The only requirement is that the water level inside the bucket at the float setting is at the same elevation as the trough water level as it is a purely gravity fed system. So it is possible to remote the bucket in an out of the way location. The only tricky part is setting the correct elevation.

Also, I had a float valve fail once and the valve did not fully shut off so it leaked a little water into the bucket instead of sealing. The pool level slowly increased and was eventually noticed. So failure is less of an issue.

Lastly, the bucket is somewhat isolated from the main water body so waves do not affect the float level as much. This is not a big deal but worth mentioning.

That's perfect Mark. And looks like I can just set it inside the trough. Adjustable too. Thanks!

Chris

 

[Dirk]

There are auto-fill systems, and what I call auto-leveling systems. The former just keeps your pool full. The latter also drains water if it gets fuller than full (like if it rains). Do you just need the former, or would the latter work in your situation?

I have an auto-leveling system, the Poolmiser.com. I'm not crazy about the toilet-valve type fill valve. I think the lever valve in the one Mark linked would be more reliable. But when my Poolmiser works it works well. Both the "normal" level and the overflow level (the threshold) are fully adjustable.

This, or similar, is what I thought you had when I was going on and on about backflow and downstream valves, so if you go this route (auto-fill or auto-level), then my first post would apply. You can't run either type of float valve (lever or toilet) after your sprinkler valve. You'd need something designed for constant pressure. And because the auto-fill valve will be under water, you need some sort of backflow prevention, too. You had both automated valve and backflow (of sorts) in your sprinkler valve, but that would need to be replaced with a proper pressure vacuum breaker assembly. The assembly includes manual shutoff valves. If you want something automated, I gave you a link for that, too.

As Mark describes, I've had my auto-fill valve get stuck on. That's what inspired the cam mirror that I described in my previous post. Yes, I would eventually notice the pool too full, but with an auto-level system, if the auto-fill valve gets stuck on, the overflow function of the system will happily dump all that fill water into your yard somewhere, and if you don't keep an eye on the level of your well, you might not realize what's happening until you get your water bill!

 

[mas985]

I don't like the toilet valves either. I replace the toilet valves far more often than the autofill valve.

But most autofill systems have both the autofill and auto drain. The auto drain is just a plug that can be removed if you want that function or left in place if you don't. The two I posted has the option but does not need to be used.

As Mark describes, I've had my auto-fill valve get stuck on. That's what inspired the cam mirror that I described in my previous post. Yes, I would eventually notice the pool too full, but with an auto-level system, if the auto-fill valve gets stuck on, the overflow function of the system will happily dump all that fill water into your yard somewhere, and if you don't keep an eye on the level of your well, you might not realize what's happening until you get your water bill!

From what I understand, there is already an auto drain built into the trough as that is what overflowed into the yard below so an additional one is not really needed. I think the OP just wanted to avoid flooding and I don't think that would happen with a standard autofill because they usually don't fail wide open.

 

[Dirk]

But most autofill systems have both the autofill and auto drain. The auto drain is just a plug that can be removed if you want that function or left in place if you don't. The two I posted has the option but does not need to be used.

Then that sounds perfect. I wonder if I could retro-fit one of those lever valves to replace my toilet valve. Mine gave me quite a bit of trouble this year, though that might have been the result of me trying to use a $7 Lowe's toilet valve instead of an OEM replacement. Since junking the Lowe's valve, and installing a new OEM part, so far it's been fine. (That's what I meant by "when my Poolmiser works it works well.")

From what I understand, there is already an auto drain built into the trough as that is what overflowed into the yard below so an additional one is not really needed.

As should be clear by now, I really cannot wrap my head around this pool's systems. I'm chiming in for the very remote possibility that one idea my inspire another! That said, I still believe I have correct the bit about the need for a proper backflow preventer should he add an auto-fill valve into the mix. And, of course, I will defend to the death the use of cam mirrors!!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The autofill that @mas985 posted is what I have - bulb-style float valve. Mine has worked flawlessly for over 11 years now. The pot definitely has a drain port in the top but mine is capped off because the fill pot in main deck and so there's nowhere for a drain to go. Being in a desert, I rarely have to worry about my pool overflowing. Having replaced many, many, MANY!, toilet bowl float valves in my life, I cannot understand for the life of me why anyone would want one of those in their pool's fill pot?!? They are just way too unreliable and prone to failure ... and residential potable water is much less harsh than pool water in terms of oxidation and mineralization and the residential float valves fail at a very decent rate (I have 5 toilets in my home and I change out one of them every 18 months or so...)

 

[setsailsoon]

There are auto-fill systems, and what I call auto-leveling systems. The former just keeps your pool full. The latter also drains water if it gets fuller than full (like if it rains). Do you just need the former, or would the latter work in your situation?

I have an auto-leveling system, the Poolmiser.com. I'm not crazy about the toilet-valve type fill valve. I think the lever valve in the one Mark linked would be more reliable. But when my Poolmiser works it works well. Both the "normal" level and the overflow level (the threshold) are fully adjustable.

This, or similar, is what I thought you had when I was going on and on about backflow and downstream valves, so if you go this route (auto-fill or auto-level), then my first post would apply. You can't run either type of float valve (lever or toilet) after your sprinkler valve. You'd need something designed for constant pressure. And because the auto-fill valve will be under water, you need some sort of backflow prevention, too. You had both automated valve and backflow (of sorts) in your sprinkler valve, but that would need to be replaced with a proper pressure vacuum breaker assembly. The assembly includes manual shutoff valves. If you want something automated, I gave you a link for that, too.

As Mark describes, I've had my auto-fill valve get stuck on. That's what inspired the cam mirror that I described in my previous post. Yes, I would eventually notice the pool too full, but with an auto-level system, if the auto-fill valve gets stuck on, the overflow function of the system will happily dump all that fill water into your yard somewhere, and if you don't keep an eye on the level of your well, you might not realize what's happening until you get your water bill!

Actually I just need an auto-fill for the basin. Right now I control level with a float switch that controls water flow valve back up at the pad and runs through a 1" pvc pipe that penetrates the basin wall near the top. I like the idea of simplifying by simply adding a 90 deg elbow and turning down with a short extension to set the float valve at the right level or just running it over to the bucket valve that Mark suggested and have it sitting on the bottom.

The pool level is pretty constant and only varies by the amount of the water height over the infinity wall. About 3/8" or so until I'm able to convince FL&P to drop 800 more amps or so so I can go for 2" like @JamesW suggested.

 

[setsailsoon]

Then that sounds perfect. I wonder if I could retro-fit one of those lever valves to replace my toilet valve. Mine gave me quite a bit of trouble this year, though that might have been the result of me trying to use a $7 Lowe's toilet valve instead of an OEM replacement. Since junking the Lowe's valve, and installing a new OEM part, so far it's been fine. (That's what I meant by "when my Poolmiser works it works well.")

As should be clear by now, I really cannot wrap my head around this pool's systems. I'm chiming in for the very remote possibility that one idea my inspire another! That said, I still believe I have correct the bit about the need for a proper backflow preventer should he add an auto-fill valve into the mix. And, of course, I will defend to the death the use of cam mirrors!!

I can see how this is confusing... remember the pool auto-fills from a line that runs off the irrigation well and pump. If somehow we get the auto-fill to back-flow back up and into the pump that's creating the pressure and go backwards down the well at the same time as it pumps water for irrigation I'd want to file for a patent!

 

[Dirk]

I can see how this is confusing... remember the pool auto-fills from a line that runs off the irrigation well and pump. If somehow we get the auto-fill to back-flow back up and into the pump that's creating the pressure and go backwards down the well at the same time as it pumps water for irrigation I'd want to file for a patent!

I think there is a backflow danger even with a well, pump and all. Though it would depend on the plumbing between pool and well. Disclosure: I know even less about well systems than I do about infinity pool systems! But...

The primary danger of backflow, and why preventers are necessary, is if the water source suddenly disappears. In a residential neighborhood, this might be a massive leak in a water main. The city shuts off the main for repair, the main drains, and that vacuum can suck the water out of residences that are not properly protected. In this scenario, the main could fill up with pool water (or worse). Fast forward to post-repair, the main re-pressurizes, but for the next few days, your neighbors will be filling their tubs and toilets and kitchen sinks with your pool water!

I think something similar could theoretically happen with a well. If the well level dropped, or ran dry, and somehow created suction (just a siphon effect could case that), then you could end up filling your well with pool water. That would not only contaminate your water for a while, but also that of the entire surrounding population that is using the same water source.

Granted, that's all farfetched, and maybe more than one failure would need to occur (like your well drops and your pump goes out at the same time), but you can imagine the impact of that ever happening, and the expense involved in correcting it. The solution is for everyone to have proper backflow prevention devices on anything that could reverse into the water system, so that if/when the worst case happens, at least the water source is protected. While backflow prevention obviously protects your own water, it's really intended to protected everyone else's just as much.

I got all this from my water-company-employee friend. He maintains all the BFPs throughout his city. All required of local businesses. He predicts eventually all residences will be required to have them, too.

So the "right thing" to do is to add the preventer, but it's up to you, of course, to decide the risk-vs-reward of doing so. My only point is that what you think is safe, or impossible, might be neither.

 

[setsailsoon]

I think there is a backflow danger even with a well, pump and all. Though it would depend on the plumbing between pool and well. Disclosure: I know even less about well systems than I do about infinity pool systems! But...

The primary danger of backflow, and why preventers are necessary, is if the water source suddenly disappears. In a residential neighborhood, this might be a massive leak in a water main. The city shuts off the main for repair, the main drains, and that vacuum can suck the water out of residences that are not properly protected. In this scenario, the main could fill up with pool water (or worse). Fast forward to post-repair, the main re-pressurizes, but for the next few days, your neighbors will be filling their tubs and toilets and kitchen sinks with your pool water!

I think something similar could theoretically happen with a well. If the well level dropped, or ran dry, and somehow created suction (just a siphon effect could case that), then you could end up filling your well with pool water. That would not only contaminate your water for a while, but also that of the entire surrounding population that is using the same water source.

Granted, that's all farfetched, and maybe more than one failure would need to occur (like your well drops and your pump goes out at the same time), but you can imagine the impact of that ever happening, and the expense involved in correcting it. The solution is for everyone to have proper backflow prevention devices on anything that could reverse into the water system, so that if/when the worst case happens, at least the water source is protected. While backflow prevention obviously protects your own water, it's really intended to protected everyone else's just as much.

I got all this from my water-company-employee friend. He maintains all the BFPs throughout his city. All required of local businesses. He predicts eventually all residences will be required to have them, too.

So the "right thing" to do is to add the preventer, but it's up to you, of course, to decide the risk-vs-reward of doing so. My only point is that what you think is safe, or impossible, might be neither.

There is no residential water supply here. All houses are on their own individual wells. I have two, one for the house and another for irrigation. Irrigation well also fills the pool. For residential water supplied by a utility I completely agree on the back-flow prevention device.

 

[JamesW]

Did you ever measure the difference in trough water level between pump on and pump off to get the Lift measurement?

 

[Dirk]

There is no residential water supply here. All houses are on their own individual wells. I have two, one for the house and another for irrigation. Irrigation well also fills the pool. For residential water supplied by a utility I completely agree on the back-flow prevention device.

I would encourage you to read up on backflow prevention for wells. A simple google will reveal its importance. If by some magic the water feeding your irrigation well never touches the water feeding your drinking water well, or that of your surrounding neighbors', then I guess you're OK. But how could that actually be? OK, I'll shut up about it now.

Regardless, I still love your pool, even though, by its mere existence, it threatens all of Earth's inhabitants, and quite possibly the entire universe!

 

[JamesW]

There is no residential water supply here.

If the water supplies the residence, what is it called?

 

[setsailsoon]

Did you ever measure the difference in trough water level between pump on and pump off to get the Lift measurement?

I haven't measured it with a tape since it's kind of hard to do this but it appears to be about 3" or 120 gal. . Thanks for the reminder on this. I have a board with a rule glued to it that I'll leave in there when I put the fill valve in. I have to get a ladder to climb down from the pool to do this job because the screen enclosure people still haven't returned to install my access door that will make entry a LOT easier. They also haven't added some fasteners to some of the top of the frame that caused them to fail inspection so I still have a hold-back of their fee. I haven't pushed this since wet weather almost continuously has caused the delay and it's really not safe to work on top if it's wet and that's been pretty much wet since they did the install.

Chris