Offer to help

samshpamalta47

Active member
Nov 13, 2021
38
Ontario, Canada
A few people offered to help me, but I don't recall who they were. If you guys want to help I'd appreciate it. I've already had to empty/refill my hot tub 4 times in the past 3 months. It has to be done again. If you guys help me I will do what you tell me to do.

This is my source water:
pH: 7.9
FC: 0.3
TA: 249
TC: 0.3
CH: 68
CYA: 2
TDS: Not tested
Salt: n/a
Optimizer Plus: 0
Phosphate: 0
 
List the specifics of your tub for us, stand alone type, fiberglass, gallons, make and model, new, old or used?
Are the test results of your source water from your test kit, if so which kit are you using? Is your water from a well or a municipal water system?
Now regarding your needing to drain the tub often, describe what happens for you to make that decision. Are the issues the same each time?
You are correct that TFP members have learned from experience not to rely or make recommendations on test strips or free pool store testing. The frustration with using these methods to diagnose water chemistry is real.
 
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I think I need to change my water because it doesn't look good. Attached is what my water looks like right now.
My latest store test had these results:
pH: 8
FC: 0.2
TA: 117
TC: 0.4
CH: 35
CYA: 59
TDS: 1000

The above is from 3 days ago. I've since added about 15-20oz of chlorine. The water I have right now is 2 weeks old.

I have an Artesian Spas Grand Cayman. It was a showroom model which we just got in mid August - https://artesianspas.com/island-spas/grand-cayman/#_self

The first time we drained was about 1.5 weeks after we first got it. My wife and sister were in it putting on sunscreen - we didnt know any better. The next day it had swamp water bubbles. The times after that had to do with my percieved water quality. If it got foamy I changed it. I may jump to the conclusion that it needs to be changed too quickly. So that's a perception thing on my part. If it makes foamy bubbles it grosses me out. But I like the fizz (like Ginger Ale) that the aerators make.

Main issues I have right now are if I start again what is the absolute first thing I need to do to my source water? I don't trust the test strips, my drop test kit, or the store sample anymore. None of them. They are all different results.
 

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I don't trust the test strips, my drop test kit, or the store sample anymore. None of them. They are all different results.
Your drop kit is going to be the most reliable. Might as well toss the strips out. Pool store is iffy at best. As long as you have one of the recommended kits, just use that and don't get distracted by everything else.

Which drop kit do you have?
 
Great info! I can easily see why you’re frustrated, but we’ll get you back on the right track. 👍👍

So let’s start by setting some expectations and lying out some open comments. For starters, spas aren’t like pools. Spa’s do take some extra effort and do require some different techniques. That said, I’m clueless when it comes to Spa’s😁 I do highly suspect you’re gonna need a drain/refill moving forward but let’s see what somebody more knowledgeable than I says. I also suspect a flush with Ahh-Some cleaner maybe in your future as I’m wondering if there’s some nasties built up in your pipes.

So @jseyfert3, you willing to come into this thread and teach us both learn how to better care for a hot tub.
 
Do a search for BIOFILM and look for short videos that explain what it is. All tubs should be purged with a high quality surfactant, sanitized with chlorine, rinsed and cleaned prior to being filled for use. New tubs are factory leak tested and can sit for months with water in the plumbing. Used tubs including display models can develop biofilm in the plumbing systems. Many tub owners at TFP have had good results with this product. Ahh-Some Hot Tub/Jetted Bath Plumbing & Jet Cleaner (6 oz.) - Ahh-Some

#1--Start off right with a clean tub by purging and sanitizing the system before refilling.
#2--Get a quality test kit and learn to use it yourself, at home. Test Kits Compared Post the results of your source water.
#3--Avoid contaminating the water in your tub with body lotions or oils and rinse off prior to getting in if needed.
#4--Add 30 ppm CYA to a fresh fill and monitor your FC free chlorine levels often. Keep FC in the target range for your CYA.FC/CYA Levels especially after each use.
#5--Keep your pH below 8 and above 7.2 by adding muratic acid as needed.
 
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I have ahh-some that I've used to purge and sanitize. I ordered the k2006 test kit and hopefully it's here in the next day or so.
Great 👍🏻
I think @jseyfert3 must be eating dinner so I’ll try to give u a synopsis.
When your kit comes you’re gonna fill the tub, raise the fc to 10 ppm w/ liquid chlorine (plain bleach) - use PoolMath to calculate all additions.
Add the appropriate amount of Ahhsome & purge the tub (Ahhsome is an enzyme product that breaks down biofilm- it is not a sanitizer).
When you’re satisfied that all the gunk is out wipe out any scum line then drain & rinse the tub well.
Next refill & test your water.
Fc
Cc
Ph
Ta
Ch
You won’t have any cya on a fresh fill.
Then follow this guide 👇
It is also conveniently pinned 📌 to the top of this sub forum .
While u wait for your kit to come also check out the ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry to get a better understanding.
A spa’s fc & ph needs to be tested & possibly adjusted every day until you get an understanding of what it requires. You should test fc before & after each use & dose accordingly. Eventually you will know how much bleach to add after an average soak depending on bather load.
2 people in a small spa is like 200 people in an average sized pool at once when it comes to people to water ratios. People soup! 🤢
If fc ever drops below min for your cya level FC/CYA Levels nasties will grow rapidly in the dark hot environment. Your top priority is to always prevent this. Proper fc level is paramount. Next is ph.
Then the rest.
Feel free to post your results when u get them & ask any questions. We’re all here to help u enjoy your spa. 😊
 

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The others have started you down the correct path with the awww-some purge and the links to the suggested way of caring for a spa.

My input is do NOT use any other testing except the drop kit from now on. PLEASE throw the guess strips in the trash and do not go to the pool $tore any more as you can get everything you need at Target, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, etc.
 
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Great 👍🏻
I think @jseyfert3 must be eating dinner so I’ll try to give u a synopsis.
When your kit comes you’re gonna fill the tub, raise the fc to 10 ppm w/ liquid chlorine (plain bleach) - use PoolMath to calculate all additions.
Add the appropriate amount of Ahhsome & purge the tub (Ahhsome is an enzyme product that breaks down biofilm- it is not a sanitizer).
When you’re satisfied that all the gunk is out wipe out any scum line then drain & rinse the tub well.
Next refill & test your water.
Fc
Cc
Ph
Ta
Ch
You won’t have any cya on a fresh fill.
Then follow this guide 👇
It is also conveniently pinned 📌 to the top of this sub forum .
While u wait for your kit to come also check out the ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry to get a better understanding.
A spa’s fc & ph needs to be tested & possibly adjusted every day until you get an understanding of what it requires. You should test fc before & after each use & dose accordingly. Eventually you will know how much bleach to add after an average soak depending on bather load.
2 people in a small spa is like 200 people in an average sized pool at once when it comes to people to water ratios. People soup! 🤢
If fc ever drops below min for your cya level FC/CYA Levels nasties will grow rapidly in the dark hot environment. Your top priority is to always prevent this. Proper fc level is paramount. Next is ph.
Then the rest.
Feel free to post your results when u get them & ask any questions. We’re all here to help u enjoy your spa. 😊
Whoa that's a lot of info all at once, but thank you! So I'm going to run bleach in it? How do I add it? Jets on/off, cover open/closed, aerators on/off? For how long do I run the equipment? How long do I keep the bleach until I purge with ahh-some?

Pool Math only has options for pools. My tub is acrylic, not fiberglass.
 

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I've read this article about 10 times and I arrive at the same conclusion each time - huh? I have to ask you guys because I'm curious. I'm not being facetious I'm being serious about this. Why? Do you guys not know that that's complicated? It's hobbyist level chemistry. Why do you do it? I don't understand what the goal is. When I was a kid I took care of our family pool and did drop testing and treated with liquid chlorine and maintenance granular chlorine. I enjoyed it. It was a lot less work than a hot tub omg. Why not just cycle some fresh water through your hot tub each week. Say a 25% exchange. Wouldn't that cost less and give you back more time to sit in you tub? I thought of this because it was mentioned that a couple people in a hot tub is like to 200 in a pool. A hot tub is a little bit of water. Can't we just change it rather than play the long game with bacteria, biofilm, and viruses?
 
An acrylic tub is fiberglass in poolmath.

Its not really a long game persay - its a few hour game. Bacteria & other organics grow at an alarming rate in a hot, wet, dark environment. They form biofilms to protect themselves from chlorine. Bather waste contributes to this & only makes matters worse. The only way to get around keeping adequate amounts of sanitizer in the water all the time to prevent most of this bacteria stew 🦠 is to completely drain & refill after every use as you would a bath tub (this does not address person to person transmission of pathogens). Even bathtubs need to be sanitized regularly. Then there’s the jets (spaghetti of plumbing) that don’t get fully evacuated /flushed when draining.
Also in an outdoor pool there’s uv to help with the breakdown of cc’s - no such luck in a covered spa unless it comes w/ a uv system & those still take time to work.
The dichlor then bleach method for sanitation is simple.
Use dichlor to chlorinate until cya gets to around 25-30ppm (around 3 or 4 shocks) then switch to bleach/liquid chlorine.
Many people (myself included) use a swg to do the majority of the daily chlorinating. This allows you to only need to add bleach after a soak or heavy bather load. I use a little dichlor every couple of weeks to replenish my cya. I have had my spa for 3 years & am only on my 2nd container of dichlor.
The rest of the parameters have the same maintenance requirements as they would be with any other sanitation method to prevent premature wear/tear on equipment.
Spas have alot of aeration for the water volume- this affects ph rise much more quickly than a couple of returns in a 20k gal pool.
It requires regular monitoring & adjustment to prevent corrosion & scaling of spa equipment.
Adjusting ta to around 50-60ppm can help moderate ph rise & the need for frequent acid additions.
To add bleach/liquid chlorine or dichlor you need to open the cover , pour it in front of a running jet (avoiding the shell) & allow it to mix for several minutes before turning the jets off.
Leave the cover off for 15-30 min after adding fc/ soaking to allow any cc’s created to escape (this helps preventdegradation of your expensive cover).
A pool / spa is just like a pet - you need to feed it every day whether you play with it or not. My swg feeds my spa fc around the clock for me.
When you 1st begin you should test fc every day before & after use .
You will get a feel for how much fc your tub consumes daily when un- used & after regular use. Then you can just replenish the fc you know has been consumed.
Most people who manually dose raise to shock level for their cya FC/CYA Levelsafter use & that’s usually enough fc to overcome the current bather waste & leave a residual amount that will be present by the next day.
Make no mistake- if you start out your soak with say 3ppm & it all gets consumed while you’re in the tub (maybe with other people) you have no protection from person to person transmission of pathogens. The goal is to prevent this from occurring. The only way to get a feel for your tub’s consumption is to test the water with an fas/dpd test.
Your original post stated that you had to drain & refill often & implied that you were unhappy with doing so.
What i have described (& what’s in the guide) is the path to keeping a small body of water sanitary for 4-6 months.
 
I was summoned, but I was super tired last night. :LOL:
I've read this article about 10 times and I arrive at the same conclusion each time - huh? I have to ask you guys because I'm curious. I'm not being facetious I'm being serious about this. Why? Do you guys not know that that's complicated? It's hobbyist level chemistry. Why do you do it? I don't understand what the goal is. When I was a kid I took care of our family pool and did drop testing and treated with liquid chlorine and maintenance granular chlorine. I enjoyed it. It was a lot less work than a hot tub omg. Why not just cycle some fresh water through your hot tub each week. Say a 25% exchange. Wouldn't that cost less and give you back more time to sit in you tub? I thought of this because it was mentioned that a couple people in a hot tub is like to 200 in a pool. A hot tub is a little bit of water. Can't we just change it rather than play the long game with bacteria, biofilm, and viruses?
No, I don't think so. I don't think a partial water change would be effective, nor easy. As @Mdragger88 said, if things go bad in a hot tub they go bad in a hurry. The temp makes it great for things to grow.

What I DO know is while you have to test and adjust a bit more than pools, it's still not hard. Ask questions, we'll walk you through and get you up and running. Here's what my hot tub looks like normally (the only exception is once when I ignored it and it went cloudy, now I have a saltwater chlorine generator [SWCG] that maintains FC between uses):
full


Pool Math only has options for pools. My tub is acrylic, not fiberglass.
An acrylic tub is fiberglass in poolmath.
I'd suggest using the vinyl setting. Fiberglass has a minimum CH listed as some older gel coatings for the fiberglass could potentially be damaged by low CH levels. Acrylic and vinyl do not have gel coatings, and have no minimum required CH level. That's the only difference between the two settings though. @Leebo perhaps add acrylic as an option, or list the option as vinyl/acrylic?

I need to run to work, I'll try to keep on eye on the thread. :D
 
It may also help if the OP can clarify their location - Ontario California, Ontario Canada (and what city), or some other "Ontario".

Also, please complete your signature with your spa/hot tub info, including capacity, manufacturer, additional equipmemt and test kit. All of this will help as others lend assistance.

While it may seem like a chemistry class, after testing a few times it becomes really easy. Don't look at the whole gaggle of tests at one time - look at each test separately. Once you are comfortable with testing, you can do all the tests in less than 15 minutes.
 
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Appreciate the advice guys.

I have a couple things:
1. What if I don't want to have a SWCG in my hot tub? There is scant info online about using SWCG in hot tubs. If I use dichlor to get CYA to level, then switch to bleach why do I need to worry about another method of adding chlorine? If you're goign to use a SWCG why not just use a chlorine buddy with pucks? The article makes me think that I only use dichlor to raise CYA, then after that it's exclusively bleach.
2. Is there a common brand of bleach you guys use? Is Walmart the best place to get bleach?
3. What if my TA is 250 and my pH is 7.4? To lower TA i have to lower pH - how do I lower TA without lowering pH? 7.4 is right in the neighbourhood of where I want to be.
4. CH - my wife and I don't like the feel of harder water. We have whole home water softening and so when I fill up the hot tub the CH is either 0 or below 100ppm. Can I just run my tub this way?
 
A few bits here for you,

  • Don’t worry about a SWCG. Some members opt for a SWCG instead of bleach to add chlorine.
  • Using pucks also increases your CYA level. The more cya you have, the higher your chlorine level needs to be. At a point the cya level becomes too high to manage and users run into problems. This video may help you understand more,
  • Forget the article from Nitro you read. While it’s packed full of info it’s geared for geeks. Let’s keep working to simplify things for you.
  • At this point ignore TA…..ignore CH……and ignore pH. We can deal with those later. For now let’s focus on Cya and chlorine
 
A few bits here for you,

  • Don’t worry about a SWCG. Some members opt for a SWCG instead of bleach to add chlorine.
  • Using pucks also increases your CYA level. The more cya you have, the higher your chlorine level needs to be. At a point the cya level becomes too high to manage and users run into problems. This video may help you understand more,
  • Forget the article from Nitro you read. While it’s packed full of info it’s geared for geeks. Let’s keep working to simplify things for you.
  • At this point ignore TA…..ignore CH……and ignore pH. We can deal with those later. For now let’s focus on Cya and chlorine

OMG thank God. I needed this dumbed down for me. What you said makes me feel a lot better. I felt like such an indequate fool because I cannot grok that Nitro article. I do hope he achieved his doctorate for that well written phd thesis on water chemistry though lol.

If I tell you what I want to do, can you help me tweak/modify it to make it work for me?

Purge/clean
Last night I added water and removed water at the same time to exchange/dilute the green cloudy water I had. I couldnt stand it being in there it was heartbreaking for me. It was a tub full of failure and the only thing missing was a dead seagull. The water now 'looks' a lot better. I cycled it for about 3 hours - it's probably 90% fresh water. I threw in 30gms of MPS, 120ml of Spa Perfect, and 120ml of Prevent II. I used a guess strip this morning and my FC is 10 and TC is 10.

I can still do an actual purge. You want me to add bleach and do a full ahhh-some purge. I can't find plain bleach anywhere just concentrated like this one or this one. If I can't find plain bleach should I try to get liquid chlorine at a pool store?
 
As Leebo said ..
1)
- a swg is totally optional (its just a convenient way to chlorinate daily especially if the tub goes long periods without use)
- not sure what a chlorine buddy is but if it’s trichlor or dichlor they both add cya which increases the amount of fc needed over a relatively quick period of time & they are also acidic & can tank the ph if not monitored. Trichlor pucks aren’t really recommended for a spa because they dissolve too quickly in the hot water.
- you are correct about the dichlor - just use until you have 20-30 cya then switch to bleach/liquid chlorine. Every few weeks or so i dose once w/ dichlor to maintain my cya due to water replacement & degradation from heat.
2) unadulterated bleach is what you need (not splashless, no fabric conditioners, polymers (like cloromax), or scents.
This has been harder to find as of late so most stick to the ones labeled for pool use as it is unadulterated (pool chlorinating liquid, liquid pool shock etc.) available @ Walmart, lowes, Home Depot, ace hardware,canadian tire or local pool stores.
They are all one in the same - sodium hypochlorite. Just different strengths. You select the strength u have in PoolMath. It will be listed on the bottle.
3) As mentioned before a spa has lots of aeration so it’s not an extremely long process to lower ta. Its not necessary to do all at once unless you feel the ph rise/acid additions are too frequent.
For now when ph rises to 8 lower it to 7.2. Overtime this will lower your ta.
Here’s an explanation of the process.

4) ch of 0-100 is fine. Mine stays at 50 as that is my fill water.
If you have foaming issues you could increase it but its not a necessity by default.
Key take aways -
*Proper Free Chlorine level is paramount & level is based on FC/CYA Levels
- Ph in the 7’s is next
Then worry about the rest later.
 

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