New water and balanced for a day - drives me crazy

[Drd]

The dry acid adds sulphates to the water which build up over time. MA does not. I just wanted you to be aware of that in case you weren’t.

General recommendation is to just bring the pH down into the 7’a and let the TA alone. It will manage itself as you manage the pH.

As I understand it adds 6 ppm to every 1 lb of dry acid (3 1/2 lbs moved my ph from 8-7.2). It's suppose to rain now so that will take care of the areation part, just hoping the TA comes down more will check tomorrow then it's on to adding the borates (Pro Team Supreme). If you can control your ph/TA you shouldn't have to add a lot to the pool or often which is my goal right now to get the numbers in balance and stabalize (calcium will probably be the bigger TDS problem which Muriatic Acid does not control). I don't think anyone really thinks they won't have to drain some water once in a while (my preference is to filter TDS and not expose my plaster without water in it). In AZ we have several companys with large filtering equipment that offers an alternative to draining pools using osmosis cost less to considering you don't have a big water bill).

I'm just trying to understand how you keep your ph/ta at a certain ppm even with borates when the fill water will always be higher at 7.8 ph and 120 TA when 7.6 and 110 along with the rest balances CSI (at temps of 65 anyway) and the other doesn't ?

I understand some think I shouldn't sweat the numbers to much, but balancing CSI is the thing that makes it necessary. If anyone can answer my question above, will borates alter the fill water so it is in balance with numbers before the fill? How does this work?

 

[Bperry]

As I understand it adds 6 ppm to a 1 lb of dry acid. If you can control your ph/TA you shouldn't have to had a lot to the pool or often (calcium will probably be the bigger TDS problem which Muriatic Acid does not control).

I'm just trying to understand how you keep your ph/ta at a certain ppm when the fill water will always be higher?

Like everyone has said. Only worry about the pH and the TA will settle into whatever it wants to be.

I’m not a sulphates expert but if you read some of the articles on them, I don’t think the issue with them is a TDS problem.

Muriatic Acid vs Dry Acid

I'm just getting started and wondering what the consensus is regarding whether to use Muriatic acid or dry acid. Any thoughts?:confused:

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Drd]

Like everyone has said. Only worry about the pH and the TA will settle into whatever it wants to be.

I’m not a sulphates expert but if you read some of the articles on them, I don’t think the issue with them is a TDS problem.

Muriatic Acid vs Dry Acid

I'm just getting started and wondering what the consensus is regarding whether to use Muriatic acid or dry acid. Any thoughts?:confused:

www.troublefreepool.com

I did do a lot of research on the sulfate part so I understand where you are coming from, but the risk to my health means more to me. Apparently it's not great in pebble tech either. Why is this stuff eveywhere you look at pool stuff then? My understanding the sulfate high to avoid is 300 ppm and for every pound (approx 2.5 cups) I put in the pool I add 9.6 ppm in a 10,000 gal pool. I am presently searching for a test for sulfates. The pool store tests doesn't offer anything testing but the TDS and sulfates can have a higher level than TDS totals as a whole so that doesn't help either. I contacted Taylor to see if they can offer any help.

Moving on.... This is far removed from my original question about the fill water and how borates controls the ph when the fill water from the city has a higher level of ph/TA. BTW, I bought Pro Team Supreme Borate product and put half the recommended amount only in to see how it goes first and I was shocked to find my CYA was now 90 ppm where it was 50 before. I discovered this product has CYA in it after I just cleaned and refilled my pool, can't beleive it! Now I can't put the other half of the borates 20 lbs container in to reach 50 ppm that is suppose to lower my chlorine demand to 5% of CYA, instead it has significantly raised it now. Before I put the borate in my chlorine demand wasa 3.75, now it's 90 CYA x 7.5% = 6.75 which is over the EPA recommended safe level for swimmers. They make it sound like the it's a better product because you don't have the PH jumps from the "borates" like borax causes and it's costs a whole lot more too, no where did it say it was because it had CYA in it. How do chemical companies get away with this stuff.

 

[Sunnydaze]

Moving on.... This is far removed from my original question about the fill water and how borates controls the ph when the fill water from the city has a higher level of ph/TA. BTW, I bought Pro Team Supreme Borate product and put half the recommended amount only in to see how it goes first and I was shocked to find my CYA was now 90 ppm where it was 50 before. I discovered this product has CYA in it after I just cleaned and refilled my pool, can't beleive it! Now I can't put the other half of the borates 20 lbs container in to reach 50 ppm that is suppose to lower my chlorine demand to 5% of CYA, instead it has significantly raised it now. Before I put the borate in my chlorine demand wasa 3.75, now it's 90 CYA x 7.5% = 6.75 which is over the EPA recommended safe level for swimmers. They make it sound like the it's a better product because you don't have the PH jumps from the "borates" like borax causes and it's costs a whole lot more too, no where did it say it was because it had CYA in it. How do chemical companies get away with this stuff.

Borates will reduce how often you have to lower the ph. It will still require the same amount of acid over time as it will take more to reduce the ph when it does need it.

Where did you find that product contains cya? I looked at its MSDS and no cyanuric acid is listed.

 

[Drd]

Borates will reduce how often you have to lower the ph. It will still require the same amount of acid over time as it will take more to reduce the ph when it does need it.

Where did you find that product contains cya? I looked at its MSDS and no cyanuric acid is listed.

Here:
Most borate agents available on the market today have chlorine stabilizer in them (cyanuric acid) which keeps chlorine from being consumed by UV light from direct sunlight. They also contain components that help to soften hard water that causes dry skin and red and itchy eyes.

4 Reasons to Add Borate in Your Swimming Pool or Spa

Borate, or borax, prevents pH drifting, which results in calcium scaling, metal stains, cloudy water, algae, and hard pool water. This article will provide you with expert tips for adding borax to your pool.

dengarden.com

And the Taylor CYA test regent.

The reason I added it was I counldn't control my high PH and TA, Last year same problem going through a ton of acid and aggravation. Just didn't know it contained CYA chlorine stabilizer.

 

[wireform]

Just so you know FC in accordance with the CYA ratio is perfectly safe. If you keep trying to correct what you've been advised against there will be a brick wall at some point. Read back the thread to see where this has gone.

 

[Drd]

Here:
Most borate agents available on the market today have chlorine stabilizer in them (cyanuric acid) which keeps chlorine from being consumed by UV light from direct sunlight. They also contain components that help to soften hard water that causes dry skin and red and itchy eyes.

4 Reasons to Add Borate in Your Swimming Pool or Spa

Borate, or borax, prevents pH drifting, which results in calcium scaling, metal stains, cloudy water, algae, and hard pool water. This article will provide you with expert tips for adding borax to your pool.

dengarden.com

And the Taylor CYA test regent.

The reason I wanted to add Borates was I counldn't control my high PH and TA, every year same problem going through a ton of acid and aggravation daily trying to keep it balanced, until I got lacks and I started having algae problems and had to drain and clean my pool which was an expensive lesson. I picked this product due to good reviews (questionable now) and it said it wouldn't cause the PH issues and hassle 20 mule team poses using boxes of it, but there was no mention it contained CYA chlorine stabilizer or that would have been a game changer. I realize my problem is the Acid I use to control my PH is it's not very effective on TA. It took me all day yesterday to get it down from 140 to 110, but I can't use muriatic acid because of my health. So Borates seemed like a good idea because it stablizes PH. Beleive me if it works it will save me a lot of time, money and agreivation for sure. Except now, it has complicated my CH demand to keeping it at a much higher PPM now. I'm hoping maybe in a few days it will settle down and be a lower number.

 

[ajw22]

Just didn't know it contained CYA chlorine stabilizer.

It does not.

We are trying to help you while you are piecing together fragments of information from various sources. There is an awful lot of misinformation about pools and other stuff on the net which is why TFP is science based.

You can decide if you want to listen to the science or internet chatter.

The Proteam MSDS shown no CYA in the product. And the MSDS is accurate. Your CYA came from somewhere else.

 

[Bperry]

Here:
Most borate agents available on the market today have chlorine stabilizer in them (cyanuric acid) which keeps chlorine from being consumed by UV light from direct sunlight. They also contain components that help to soften hard water that causes dry skin and red and itchy eyes.

4 Reasons to Add Borate in Your Swimming Pool or Spa

Borate, or borax, prevents pH drifting, which results in calcium scaling, metal stains, cloudy water, algae, and hard pool water. This article will provide you with expert tips for adding borax to your pool.

dengarden.com

And the Taylor CYA test regent.

The reason I added it was I counldn't control my high PH and TA, Last year same problem going through a ton of acid and aggravation. Just didn't know it contained CYA chlorine stabilizer.

That was a painful article to read and most of it was nonsense. The biggest oddity is it describing pH as a chemical you add to your pool.

Not sure if it was because english wasn’t his/her first language or not but it looks like one of those websites that’s just a click bait target where they include lots of technical words on the page in the hopes that search engines find it and get people to click on it so they get ad revenue. That’s my best guess on why that website exists.

 

[Newdude]

it's 90 CYA x 7.5% = 6.75 which is over the EPA recommended safe level for swimmers

The government does not recognize the FC/CYA relationship. (Nor does the industry who uses the 1980s guidlines) Your tap water with 0 CYA and up to 4 ppm FC is harsher than your 90 CYA and 6.75 FC.

Get your science based advice here. Or get the cash cow nonsense from the pool store with their 5-in-1 products. But stop combining info. It only makes it worse. Pick. And go.

 

[Drd]

It does not.

We are trying to help you while you are piecing together fragments of information from various sources. There is an awful lot of misinformation about pools and other stuff on the net which is why TFP is science based.

You can decide if you want to listen to the science or internet chatter.

The Proteam MSDS shown no CYA in the product. And the MSDS is accurate. Your CYA came from somewhere else.

Can you post the souce for their technical information "ingredient list" they don't put on their product this is all they post on their website "Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate: 99.5%, Other Ingredients: 0.5%" proteam-supreme Not trying to get information from various sources, would like to get it from Pool Geeks that make it. I bought their Supreme Plus version so what is the "plus" component? It's just very coincidental that I find information relating to the very same experience I am having after introducing this product into my pool. I don't understand the combative nature of this conversation, I bid you good day.

 

[Drd]

That was a painful article to read and most of it was nonsense. The biggest oddity is it describing pH as a chemical you add to your pool.

Not sure if it was because english wasn’t his/her first language or not but it looks like one of those websites that’s just a click bait target where they include lots of technical words on the page in the hopes that search engines find it and get people to click on it so they get ad revenue. That’s my best guess on why that website exists.

PH is a conponet of the chemistry of the water added to your pool ; In chemistry, pH historically denoting "potential of hydrogen" (or "power of hydrogen") is a scale used to specify the acidity or basicity of an aqueous ... I think this is being taken out of context to prove some point that is unnecessary, I don't think this is becoming constructive anymore.

 

[Sunnydaze]

Can you post the souce for their technical information "ingredient list" they don't put on their product this is all they post on their website "Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate: 99.5%, Other Ingredients: 0.5%" proteam-supreme Not trying to get information from various sources, would like to get it from Pool Geeks that make it. I bought their Supreme Plus version so what is the "plus" component? It's just very coincidental that I find information relating to the very same experience I am having after introducing this product into my pool. I don't understand the combative nature of this conversation, I bid you good day.

The msds is available online via a google search. Even if the other .5% was CYA, it would take over 600 pounds of this stuff to increase your cya by 40ppm as your pool seems to have done.

 

[Drd]

The msds is available online via a google search. Even if the other .5% was CYA, it would take over 600 pounds of this stuff to increase your cya by 40ppm as your pool seems to have done.

That's not true, I just did a refill and it took 4 lbs to add 50 ppm of CYA to my pool water. Please let it go now, I'll work this out I'm not stupid.

 

[Drd]

That's not true, I just did a refill and it took 4 lbs to add 50 ppm of CYA to my pool water. Please let it go now, I'll work this out I'm not stupid.

 

[Sunnydaze]

That's not true, I just did a refill and it took 4 lbs to add 50 ppm of CYA to my pool water. Please let it go now, I'll work this out I'm not stupid.

I don't know why you insist on ignoring verifiable facts. You yourself found that the product is 99.5% borates and .5% other. As I said, if the .5% other ingredient was cyanuric acid, it would take 600 pounds of the borax product to get 3 pounds of cya which would increase your pools cya by less than 40ppm.

 

[PoolStored]

I don't know why you insist on ignoring verifiable facts. You yourself found that the product is 99.5% borates and .5% other. As I said, if the .5% other ingredient was cyanuric acid, it would take 600 pounds of the borax product to get 3 pounds of cya which would increase your pools cya by less than 40ppm.

Sunny,
He used the "proteam supreme plus" product.

The MSDS is available here: https://www.proteampoolcare.com/images/uploads/proteam_supreme_plus.pdf

In the MSDS, there is Boron Oxide 40-50% and Trade Secret 50-60%.

 

[wireform]

I bought their Supreme Plus version so what is the "plus" component

The "plus component" = your wallet

 

[Bperry]

PH is a conponet of the chemistry of the water added to your pool ; In chemistry, pH historically denoting "potential of hydrogen" (or "power of hydrogen") is a scale used to specify the acidity or basicity of an aqueous ... I think this is being taken out of context to prove some point that is unnecessary, I don't think this is becoming constructive anymore.

I’m really not intending to be difficult. Just trying to help by pointing out that particular website is really not doing you any favors. You sound like you understand what pH is, but the author of that website doesn’t. So I’d recommend ignoring anything it says, that’s all I meant. No insult intended.

 

[ajw22]

What is ProTeam SupremePLUS?

I was in the pool store yesterday that I like best, because their LC always tests out at 14ppm, rather than the 12ppm it's rated at, while Branch Brook's tests at 10ppm. And rather than their usual house brand of Sun Pools products I saw they started to carry this line. I searched and...

www.poolforum.com

It's been around for years and they hold the original patents on borate. … Supreme plus is a pH neutral mix of the pentahydrate form of borax and boric acid (mostly boric acid). It is very expensive compared to buying generic chemicals but so is alkalinity increaser and pH increaser. … Their borate product is really no more expensive than the ones from Bioguard and Arch. Supreme is just the pentahydrate form of borax and must be used with an addition of acid, Supreme plus is the pH neutral mix of borax and boric acid.