New water and balanced for a day - drives me crazy

[Drd]

I am in Arizona just reaching 80's and had my pool drained, cleaned and filled looks great, BUT...... Initial chemical test was on the money cya 50, calcium 220, salt did not register, FC 3.7, TA 90 and PH 7.5 the only chemicals added was HASA liquid chlorine 12.5% (2 gals and CYA) but the interior of the pool also just had a acid bath, but shortly after that I'm back at the 8.0 ph and 140 TA with only adding the required additional liquid chlorine and of course any fill water needed due to evaporation and filtration runs for 4 hrs and 4 hrs. So I added 3 cups dry acid (Chorox 93% just about the whole bag) and not much of a change happened 7.8-8.0 and 130. I tested my fill water today which is an external filler (yeah stupid to build pools with autmatic filler as an option) and TA was 120 and Ph 7.8; higher than the day I filled the pool. bought some borax (Pro Team) I read can stablize your ph/ta but if my fill water is always above what I try to get it down to and then add borax how is that going to help? Not even time to swim yet and I'm already frustrated. How does one ever reach the numbers you are told to balance the pool water when you are fighting the fill water? I know the routine of lowering the ph to 7.0 to move the TA down to stablize the PH and then areate, But if my fill water is always higher how am I suppose to keep it stable and balanced?

10,500 gal in ground plaster pool (play pool- water depth about the same)

 

[PoolStored]

The best thing to do is get your TA down to 60-80. I keep mine at 70 and it helps stabilize pH.

I reduced TA 140-70 over a period 3.5 days.

1. Reduce your pH to 7.0. (add MA) (CO2 outgasses at the highest rates between 7.0 and 7.4)
2. Aerate until you get to 7.4.
3. Rinse and repeat until you get to your target TA.

I built the aerator below on top of a sump pump. I can reduce TA by 10ppm in 12 hours with a 30K gallon pool with this setup and process. Easy! Going from 7.0 to 7.4 speeds the process, but can be like feeding a newborn every couple hours. You can also let it rise to 7.8, then back to 7.0, requires less attention but will take longer.

Seems like you want to add Borates. After that, which is nice, but not necessary, I added BORIC ACID from Duda Deisel (Boric acid does not affect TA or pH when you add it like Borax. It is granular and got my Borates to 50ppm. More reading on Borates: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

After I lowered my TA and added Borates, My pool was a rock at 7.4-7.6 all summer. I didn't add any acid from the end of TA reduction/Borates until I closed and had to bring fill water pH down after liner replacement. You can check my logs (July 17-Oct 27)

 

[PoolStored]

Oh, and I bought, I think 4 boxes of Borax to add borates (cheap). When I found out that I could use boric acid, I took the borax back. I do not like MA. Like at all. 55lbs is how Duda sells boric acid, about $100 delivered. I happily paid the $100 not to have to do the cycling Borax/MA (time) and to have Borates in the pool (stable pH). Just cast it into the pool and it dissolves quickly. Done.

I don't know what had a larger effect on Stable pH, lowering TA or the Borates. Don't know, don't care. At this point, with very little effort I can reduce TA reliably, and I have stable pH. Like my signature, I'm a convert.

 

[cowboycasey]

You want to use Muriatic acid and NOT dry acid.. Dry acid can damage your equipment and plaster after using for awhile... You can get MA at Lowes, HD, Walmart, and so on, no need to go to the pool store..

MA bottle can be lowered into the pool water and then poured out slowly with almost no splashing at all.. I also do not measure exactly.. 4 cups = 1/4 bottle / 8 cups = 1/2 bottle MA and test afterwards..

 

[ajw22]

First of all let your water chemistry settle down after filling a pool and adding chemicals. Don't go chasing the changing chemistry.

Nothing in pool chemistry needs to be done quickly other then fixing a very low pH problem or low chlorine.

Some pools "balance" are more stable then others. As you observed with high pH and TA fill water your water chemistry will not stay where you try and put it with chemicals.

And you can't compare your pool stability to pools in other environments. You are in a high evaporation climate and your pool will take a lot of the high pH and TA water.

How does one ever reach the numbers you are told to balance the pool water when you are fighting the fill water?

This is not a contest for the most stable pool. In your situation your pool water chemistry is a dynamic shifting environment that will not be stable. You just keep nudging it back towards the desired values.

I know the routine of lowering the ph to 7.0 to move the TA down to stablize the PH and then areate, But if my fill water is always higher how am I suppose to keep it stable and balanced?

All the recommended values are ranges. Anywhere in the range is equally good. Monitor your CSI and keep that in range also.

I don't like the term balance for pool water chemistry. It denotes that being balanced is good and if you are out of balance it is bad. Nothing bad happens when the water chemistry drifts for a few days until you nudge it back.

It is a continuous process of which your manual work is part of the water chemistry dynamics. No reason to get frustrated at it.

 

[Sunnydaze]

I'm in AZ with the same fill water. Once you get your TA down to 60 or so, the ph rise will be slower. Currently, I'm adding acid about every 4 to 5 days. Once it gets hot and you're adding a lot of fill water, you'll need muriatic acid about twice a week to keep ph under control. When my ph hits 8, I push it back down to ~7.6. That will also help keep the TA down. My TA still rises slowly with weekly acid additions so when it eventually raises 10-20ppm, I'll reduce it back to 60 with acid and aeration.

Once you get a routine, your pool becomes predictable and easy. Just don't chase an exact number as others have said.

 

[Drd]

You want to use Muriatic acid and NOT dry acid.. Dry acid can damage your equipment and plaster after using for awhile... You can get MA at Lowes, HD, Walmart, and so on, no need to go to the pool store..

MA bottle can be lowered into the pool water and then poured out slowly with almost no splashing at all.. I also do not measure exactly.. 4 cups = 1/4 bottle / 8 cups = 1/2 bottle MA and test afterwards..

I can't use MA because of the fumes period even though it does a much better job of adjusting TA I understant that. I also feel more comfortable handling dry acid virsus liquid, a spill of dry you can sweep up. I wear a N95 and safty glasses too. I spread it in small amounts only among the return jets so it is circulated and diluted (I am not going to add it to water in a bucket). I also know not to dose more than 2 1/2 cups at anyone time. MA can damage and stain your plaster even more so if you concentrate it in one area; dry acid is a weaker form of acid than MA.

 

[Sunnydaze]

I can't use MA because of the fumes period even though it does a much better job of adjusting TA I understant that. I also feel more comfortable handling dry acid virsus liquid, a spill of dry you can sweep up. I wear a N95 and safty glasses too. I spread it in small amounts only among the return jets so it is circulated and diluted (I am not going to add it to water in a bucket). I also know not to dose more than 2 1/2 cups at anyone time. MA can damage and stain your plaster even more so if you concentrate it in one area; dry acid is a weaker form of acid than MA.

Have you tried 14.5% muriatic acid? It doesn't fume much at all. MA is not a concern to your plaster at all if you slowly pour it in front of a return. In the long run, it's better for your plaster than dry acid. It's your pool and decision but it would be wise to heed good advice.

 

[Drd]

I'm in AZ with the same fill water. Once you get your TA down to 60 or so, the ph rise will be slower. Currently, I'm adding acid about every 4 to 5 days. Once it gets hot and you're adding a lot of fill water, you'll need muriatic acid about twice a week to keep ph under control. When my ph hits 8, I push it back down to ~7.6. That will also help keep the TA down. My TA still rises slowly with weekly acid additions so when it eventually raises 10-20ppm, I'll reduce it back to 60 with acid and aeration.

Once you get a routine, your pool becomes predictable and easy. Just don't chase an exact number as others have said.

That's interesting you try to get the TA down to 60 when the fill water TA is ususally 120 in my neck of the woods anyway. Something I just discovered last night is that CSI being between +3/-3 is an important part of the balancing people don't seem to focus as much on but is part of the chemical balancing calculators, not just ph and TA and chlorine are at a certain number to be healthy to swim in, it's in combination with other chemical numbers including the tempature of the water which seems to effect it too, just not chlorine). I actually found that 7.8 ph, 120 TA coming out of my spigot is fine as long as the water temp is 55 degrees which it is currently at along with my hardness at 300 ppm, cya 55, borates 30 results would be -.01 CSI and if I lower the PH and TA it's way out of balance on CSI, but when the water temp increases to 75-80 degrees, you need to drop the TA if nothing else to 90 which produces a +.01 (I have a 10,500 gal plaster pool). The CSI deals with the corroisveness or scale forming of the water which either can harm the pool plaster and or equipment too. So I understand now that using Dry Acid has a low effect on the movement of TA and TA controls PH stability and why I go through so much dry acid trying to control my ph, so that's why I'm adding borate to the mix once I get it balanced. Just wondering if I leave it at 7.8 and 120 as it comes out of the spigot right now and add the borate will I be able to adjust the TA lower when the water temputure increases to balance the CSI?

 

[Drd]

Have you tried 14.5% muriatic acid? It doesn't fume much at all. MA is not a concern to your plaster at all if you slowly pour it in front of a return. In the long run, it's better for your plaster than dry acid. It's your pool and decision but it would be wise to heed good advice.

I can't do that I have a lung condition.

 

[Bperry]

I can't do that I have a lung condition.

Be aware that dry acid adds other stuff to the water that can damage equipment as it builds up. (Take a look through the TFP articles) Can you have someone else add acid as needed? Another option might be to setup an automated acid dispenser and have a service maintain it.

Side comment: an N95 mask is not rated for fumes or chemical vapor. You need a carbon activated respirator for that stuff.

 

[cowboycasey]

These will work

Full Face Respirator Masks | North, 3M, and Moldex

We sell a variety of full face respirator masks including replacement cartridges and filters. Our brands include North, 3M, and Moldex.

www.respiratormaskprotection.com

And these filters..

N75002 North Cartridge with Acid Gas Filter Element

The N75002 North Cartridge with Acid Gas Filter Element offers protection from Chlorine, Hydrogen Chloride, Sulfur Dioxide, Hydrogen Fluoride, Chlorine Dioxide, and Formaldehyde.

www.norkan.com

 

[Drd]

Be aware that dry acid adds other stuff to the water that can damage equipment as it builds up. (Take a look through the TFP articles) Can you have someone else add acid as needed? Another option might be to setup an automated acid dispenser and have a service maintain it.

Side comment: an N95 mask is not rated for fumes or chemical vapor. You need a carbon activated respirator for that stuff.

I am fully aware that for fumes you need a NIOSH approved rated filter for fumes along with a respirator mask. N95 is rated for particulates which is what dry acid is and has no fumes. Sodium Bisulfate is almost pure acid at 93%, the other 7% is what is sprayed on to keep it free flowing. It is also a milder Acid and why it's harder to adjust the TA but possible. There are other acids you might be thinking of too, but I know not to add more than 2 1/2 cups of dry acid at anyone time. Where as people pour Muraitic acid right into the pool water and it is heavier than water so it sinks to the bottom where it can stain/damage pool surfaces and can hit drains more concentrated doing damage to equipment too. There are pros and cons on everything you add to the pool and that's why you need to make sure you practice good applications methods. Once I get the TA down, the PH will come down too at which point I will ad borates (not the 20 mule team one that raises ph again).

 

[Drd]

This is really what I am trying to sort out: bought some borax (Pro Team) I read can stablize your ph/ta but if my fill water is always above what I try to get it down to and then add borax how is that going to help? Not even time to swim yet and I'm already frustrated. How does one ever reach the numbers you are told to balance the pool water when you are fighting the fill water? I know the routine of lowering the ph to 7.0 to move the TA down to stablize the PH and then areate, But if my fill water is always higher how am I suppose to keep it stable and balanced?

 

[ajw22]

I'm already frustrated. How does one ever reach the numbers you are told to balance the pool water when you are fighting the fill water? I know the routine of lowering the ph to 7.0 to move the TA down to stablize the PH and then areate, But if my fill water is always higher how am I suppose to keep it stable and balanced?

I can rewrite what I said in post #5.

No reason to get frustrated.

Without a SWG your TA really does not matter. Maintain your FC and CYA relationship and keep your pH in the 7's. Let your TA be whatever it wants.

Watch your CH as you are in a high CH fill water area. And try and keep your CSI between +0.6 and -0.6. Short term swing until you get to0 make adjustments do no harm.

Don't sweat your pools' "balance". Chemistry anywhere within ranges is equally good.

 

[Drd]

I can rewrite what I said in post #5.

No reason to get frustrated.

Without a SWG your TA really does not matter. Maintain your FC and CYA relationship and keep your pH in the 7's. Let your TA be whatever it wants.

Watch your CH as you are in a high CH fill water area. And try and keep your CSI between +0.6 and -0.6. Short term swing until you get to0 make adjustments do no harm.

Don't sweat your pools' "balance". Chemistry anywhere within ranges is equally good.

I have been trying to get the CSI in range (some say -3 to +3 is preferred) but it factors in water temperature, PH/TA, CH, CYA, Borates and Salt (everything but chlorine) to get there so that's a lot of stuff that requires being in specific ppm to get to. I have been playing with the calculator to find that sweet spot and it's difficult to acheive. I have 220 ppm CH but the CSI seems to want at least 300 ppm to get those numbers, but I'm suppose to be in a normal range 200-400 and I hate to add more hardness given the hardness of our city water unless I really need to because it will add more with fills.

 

[ajw22]

I have been trying to get the CSI in range (some say -3 to +3 is preferred) but it factors in water temperature, PH/TA, CH, CYA, Borates and Salt (everything but chlorine) to get there so that's a lot of stuff that requires being in specific ppm to get to. I have been playing with the calculator to find that sweet spot and it's difficult to acheive. I have 220 ppm CH but the CSI seems to want at least 300 ppm to get those numbers, but I'm suppose to be in a normal range 200-400 and I hate to add more hardness given the hardness of our city water unless I really need to because it will add more with fills.

So don't do what some say. They don't have the high TA issue you do. That's why I said keep CSI within +0.6 and -0.6 and you will be ok. If you can keep your CSI within the 3's then fine do it.

Water temperature makes a big difference in CSI. In the winter with cold water it can become impossible to keep your CSI in range. That is OK. Short term CSI outside the range does no damage. Short term being less then 3 months or so. Nudge it back into range when you can.

CSI is a balancing act with compromises between the various chemicals. You have to find the formula that works for YOUR pool. You can't force your pool to numbers that work in other peoples pools.

As you noted your CH is going to climb over time which is going to change your CSI. This is a dynamic ever changing process that you will need to make adjustments for.

Find something that is reasonable for now. It will change over time.

 

[Drd]

OK, I can appreciate your sentiments it's an evolving scenerio. I am beginning to understand winter temps vs summer in Arizona is a big swing in how you take care of your pool. Less chlorine, more chlorine more water fill, more filter filter time etc. I understand borates will help significantly in keeping things stable with a few added advantages and therefore I will not have to dump so much chemicals in my pool to try and keep it some what under control. I understand borates softens water to some degree too, so maybe I should add some hardness to the water and bring it up what do you think?

 

[ajw22]

I suggest you get your water chemistry reasonably stabilized and live with it through four seasons and see how the chemistry needs change with the seasons.

I would not add CH to your water. The summer is coming and you will be adding fill water and within 6 months you will probably have CH of 250 or more.

Borates don't change how much chemicals you will need. You will end up needing larger doses less often to get adjustments in your pH and TA.

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Bperry]

I am fully aware that for fumes you need a NIOSH approved rated filter for fumes along with a respirator mask. N95 is rated for particulates which is what dry acid is and has no fumes. Sodium Bisulfate is almost pure acid at 93%, the other 7% is what is sprayed on to keep it free flowing. It is also a milder Acid and why it's harder to adjust the TA but possible. There are other acids you might be thinking of too, but I know not to add more than 2 1/2 cups of dry acid at anyone time. Where as people pour Muraitic acid right into the pool water and it is heavier than water so it sinks to the bottom where it can stain/damage pool surfaces and can hit drains more concentrated doing damage to equipment too. There are pros and cons on everything you add to the pool and that's why you need to make sure you practice good applications methods. Once I get the TA down, the PH will come down too at which point I will ad borates (not the 20 mule team one that raises ph again).

The dry acid adds sulphates to the water which build up over time. MA does not. I just wanted you to be aware of that in case you weren’t.

General recommendation is to just bring the pH down into the 7’a and let the TA alone. It will manage itself as you manage the pH.