New to BBB Method / New to the Forum

redjeep61

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
34
Phoenix, AZ
Fired the pool guy of 11 years after taking a couple samples into the Pool Store. Chlorine was 0, Ph 8, Alk 240, CYA 200, Calcium 500, Disolved Solids 2900, Phosphates 50

First I worked on Ph, Alkalinity and Chlorine and was leery about going down the list of Pool Store recommendations, knowing they are entirely geared towards selling more chemicals. After much research I stumbled across the BBB method. I ordered a Talyor Test Kit K-2006

A few weeks ago for four days I shut down the pool pump and drained from the top of the pool and filled into the bottom of the deeper end of the pool. I performed my first CYA test and thought I was somewhere close to 30. Took a sample into the Pool Store and they told me CYA was 0. A little more research I realized I was not reading the the test correctly, I guess the black dot needs to completely disappear.

Not buying what the pool store was saying about CYA = 0 I only added 1 cup at a time wait a week and retest. The pool store recommended putting the whole 4 pounds in. After the hard fought battle to dilute, running the pump between Monsoon storms, I was not going to bump my CYA any higher than 30.

The pool water looks the best it has in years and the water feels so much better too. I have finally reached my target numbers for PH and Alkalinity. I am shocking nightly a gallon + of Chlorine, in the evenings I am usually down to 4 - 5 ppm FC / TC, mornings usually between 8 - 10 ppm. I have been shocking to 13 using the poolcalculator.com and my current readings are below.

PH is also a roller coaster around 7.8 at noon and then I add acid to get it to 7.4 before I add chlorine in the evening.

Alkalinity is always dropping, currently 80, started the week at 90. Seem to be dropping about 10 a week. When I hit 70 I throw in Baking Soda and get it back up to 90.

What do I need to do to acheive some sort of equilibrium only adding minimal chlorine and acid?

I intentionally skipped a day on liquid chlorine, I switched to CalHypo to nudge my calcium upto 300. Just SLAMMED is upto 13 with CalHypo.

Here are my stats -

Tap / Fill Water - FC 0 / Ph 7.8 / Alk 150

Test 21:00 8/31/19
FC - 1
TC - 1.5
Ph - 7.4
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 200
Water Temp - 92 °F

Pool is Pebbletec / Kidney shaped 12,720 gallons with TritonII_TR60_sand_filter and Pentair 011055 IntelliFlo 2 VST Variable Speed Pump
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
10,847
Northern NJ
Why is your FC 1 when your CYA 30 target should be 4-6 with a minimum of 2? See FC/CYA Chart

Get off the pH/TA roller coaster. TA down to 60 is ok. PH up to 7.8 is ok. Let your TA find an equilibrium. Run your pH higher and TA lower. Reduce your pH to 7.6-7.8 when it hits 8. See how long your pH will stay at 7.8.

Just raise your CH to 250. You don’t need it above the minimum. A higher CH raises your CSI.

Are you using PoolMath? Use PoolMath to calculate your CSI.
 

redjeep61

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
34
Phoenix, AZ
Alright - yes the Chlorine was low I intentionally let it drop to 1 actually was hoping for 0. I switching from Liquid Chlorine to CalHypo and thought it would be best to zero out. The only reason I wanted to switch to CalHypo was because I had a box sitting here and want to get rid of it. Also my CH was 250, I have a PebbleTech pool and raising the CH to 300 the middle of my target range. If anything I was hoping a little higher CH might help stabilize TA/Ph.

So yes I want off the TA/Ph roller coaster, whenever I add Chlorine my Ph jumps from 7.4 to 8.0 or 7.6 to 8.0. So in the afternoon I know it down to where is should be, evening I add Chlorine and it pumps right back up, the cycle continues for 3 or 4 days then my TA drops.

If I do nothing but Chlorine I already know where the Ph and Alk will end up. All my pool guy of 11 years was doing was throwing a Chlorine puck or two into the floater weekly. After 11 years of that Chlorine was 0, Ph 8+, Alk 240, CYA 200, Calcium 500, Disolved Solids 2900, Phosphates 50.

The first 3 weeks or so I was targeting Ph 7.6 / Alk 80 so in the afternoon I was knocking Ph to 7.6, when I would hit Alk 70 I would bring it back up to 80. A couple weeks ago I rather than adjusting Ph / Alk to goal and knowing that Ph is going to jump when I add Chlorine, then I am going to add acid to bring it back down which is eventually going to drag my TA down. I started doing the afternoon adjustments to Ph 7.4 or 7.5 knowing full well that adding Chlorine at night is going to put back up to 7.6 my target. But it does not change the end result and the cycle continues.

So I have been using pool calculator, I have tried out pool math they are both yielding the same calculations. I have also been using the Taylor Water Balance Calculator that came with the test kit and that is also inline with pool calculator and pool math.

As 10:30 AM today -
FC - 7
CC - .5
Ph - 8+
Alk - 90
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = .5

I like the suggestion of letting the TA find its equilibrium so I am going to target CSI 0, maintaining the Chlorine and Ph alone should drag my TA down based on recent experience. 8/25 was the last time I hit TA 70 and instead of bring it up to 80 I brought it up to 90. I am have been teetering between TA 80 and 90 since 8/25.

With CSI .5 and water temp 86 °F and Alk I am targeting Ph 7.5. After Chlorine tonight I should be right back up to Ph 7.8 and we can see ho long it holds.
 

mknauss

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Bronze Supporter
May 3, 2014
22,464
Laughlin, NV
Cal Hypo should be illegal to sell here in the SW desert. The last thing you need is to add calcium. Your CH is fine where it is, and it will be well above 300 ppm in a few weeks, just from fill water.
 

mknauss

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Bronze Supporter
May 3, 2014
22,464
Laughlin, NV
Also, be aware that CSI is only available via Poolmath.

The other calculator you have used is not supported by this forum.
 

jimbethesda

Gold Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
238
Austin, TX
It is never recommended to “zero out” chlorine. Not sure why you wanted to do that. Never go below the min level of FC for your CYA, and my advice is to look at the CYA/Chlorine chart and add 1 to the min level and mentally use that number NEVER to go below. A little higher (just not higher than SLAM level) is perfectly fine.
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
10,847
Northern NJ
Red, you have a bunch of misconceptions that are steering you in the wrong directions.

I was hoping a little higher CH might help stabilize TA/Ph.
CH has no effect on TA/pH.

whenever I add Chlorine my Ph jumps from 7.4 to 8.0 or 7.6 to 8.0.
Adding liquid chlorine to water is pH neutral.

From will Liquid Chlorine Raise pH?

Adding bleach to water can cause a temporary increase in pH which is usually offset by the chlorine reacting with organics and biological matter which are acidic (creates a proton) reactions. Thus, on balance, the net chlorine reactions are pH neutral. Most retail and commercial liquid chlorine products contain a small excess of lye from the manufacturing process but this amount of OH- is minimal and does not change the pH with normal levels of liquid chlorine use. If one were to add significant amounts of bleach (for example, raising the pool water chlorine concentration to shock levels), then the pH rise would need to be offset by an initial lower of the pH with acid. This is why TFP requires a pool owner to adjust their pH down to 7.2 prior to starting a SLAM.


So I have been using pool calculator, I have tried out pool math they are both yielding the same calculations. I have also been using the Taylor Water Balance Calculator that came with the test kit and that is also inline with pool calculator and pool math.

As 10:30 AM today -
FC - 7
CC - .5
Ph - 8+
Alk - 90
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = .5


Using PoolMath this calculates to a TFP CSI of .27

 
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redjeep61

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
34
Phoenix, AZ
Alright, really not looking to make this about which site / tool I check for tests or whether or not my Ph is going up each time I add chlorine or if I should have let my FC go to 1 before switching to cal hypo. I joined this forum to learn how to do this better and get off this groundhog day cycle of raising Chlorine to shock levels nightly to keep within range 4-6 for 24 hours with 1 gallon of chlorine at night, lowering Ph back down to 7.5 - 7.8 with 8 - 18 oz of acid at noon, repeat for 3 or 4 days then when TA drops to 70 add some baking soda to the mix and repeat. Currently I am adding a lot more chlorine and acid a lot more frequently than I ever was before. I just want to hit some equilibrium and get out of this cycle.

What I am finding interesting is on 8/25 when I hit TA of 70, I raised TA 90 and I have been bouncing back and forth between 80 and 90 daily. Since the drain / refill (8/17) and bringing CYA back up to 30 this is the longest I have not dropped TA to 70. Between 8/17 I adjusted TA up from 70 twice once on 8/18 and 8/23.

My current debate is at noon when my Ph is around 7.8 to add acid to continue this cycle or not and observe for another 24 hours? At 2000 when my Chlorine is between 4 to 5 add more chlorine to shock level to continue the cycle or not and observe for another 24 hours?

Here are my test results since yesterday:

Tap / Fill Water - FC 0 / Ph 7.8 / Alk 150

Test 19:30 9/1/19
FC - 4
CC - 0
Ph - 7.6
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = -0.06 (pool math)

Added 19 oz of 73% CalHypo

Test 23:30 9/1/19
FC - 12.5
CC - .5
Ph - 8+
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.43 (pool math)

Test 06:30 9/2/19
FC - 12.5
CC - .0
Ph - 8+
Alk - 90
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.48 (pool math)

Pool is Pebbletec / Kidney shaped 12,720 gallons with TritonII_TR60_sand_filter and Pentair 011055 IntelliFlo 2 VST Variable Speed Pump, Taylor K-2006 TEST KIT COMP CHLORINE FAS-DPD
 

mknauss

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Bronze Supporter
May 3, 2014
22,464
Laughlin, NV
With your fill water, there is no need to raise TA. When your pH reaches 8, lower it to 7.6. Let TA settle where it does. Test for it as you need the value for Poolmath, but do not add baking soda.
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
10,847
Northern NJ
Check your pH before you add chlorine. Adjust it as necessary. Then wait 15 minutes and add chlorine. You don't need to check pH after adding chlorine. You don't need to check water normally more than once a day unless you are trying to fix a problem.
 

redjeep61

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
34
Phoenix, AZ
When I hit Ph of 8 my target Ph has been 7.6 for the past week. So I am adjusting my plan to get off the roller coaster. I am going to target Ph 7.2 and instead of adding enough chlorine to get to 12 - 13 I am going to back that off until I end the day at the minimum of 2 for Chlorine. Why target 7.2, because I have tried 7.6, 7.5 and 7.4 for a week each and it yields the same results.

For whatever reason my Ph is bouncing to 8+ and settling down to 7.8 after I chlorinate to 12 - 13. I have weeks of test results to support the Ph bounce after chlorination. I know it is not supposed to be, but it is.

If moderation is the key to life, then maybe less chlorine will equal less acid and more equilibrium. Gotta try something.

Here are my stats -

Tap / Fill Water - FC 0 / Ph 7.8 / Alk 150

Test 19:30 9/1/19
FC - 4
CC - 0
Ph - 7.6
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = -0.06 (pool math)

Added 19 oz of 73% CalHypo

Test 23:30 9/1/19
FC - 12.5
CC - .5
Ph - 8+
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.43 (pool math)

Test 06:30 9/2/19
FC - 12.5
CC - .0
Ph - 8+
Alk - 90
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.48 (pool math)

Test 12:00 9/2/19
FC - 7
CC - .0
Ph - 7.8
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.29 (pool math)

Added 29 oz of 28.3% muriatic acid (Target Ph 7.2)

Yes I am aware I should only need to test once a day, I am doing this to try to figure out what is going on. Its a 3 day weekend so I have the time and it has given me a very good picture.
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
10,847
Northern NJ
Why are you chlorinating to 12-13 for CYA 30? You only need 4-6. See FC/CYA Chart.

pH will stay at 7.2 for a few seconds. The lower you take pH the faster it rises. It is not a linear function. The minimum you can lower your pH the slower it will rise.

Lowering your TA to 50-60 will slow the pH rise.

 

Jeff J.

Active member
Aug 6, 2019
31
Staten Island NY
When I hit Ph of 8 my target Ph has been 7.6 for the past week. So I am adjusting my plan to get off the roller coaster. I am going to target Ph 7.2 and instead of adding enough chlorine to get to 12 - 13 I am going to back that off until I end the day at the minimum of 2 for Chlorine. Why target 7.2, because I have tried 7.6, 7.5 and 7.4 for a week each and it yields the same results.

For whatever reason my Ph is bouncing to 8+ and settling down to 7.8 after I chlorinate to 12 - 13. I have weeks of test results to support the Ph bounce after chlorination. I know it is not supposed to be, but it is.

If moderation is the key to life, then maybe less chlorine will equal less acid and more equilibrium. Gotta try something.

Here are my stats -

Tap / Fill Water - FC 0 / Ph 7.8 / Alk 150

Test 19:30 9/1/19
FC - 4
CC - 0
Ph - 7.6
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = -0.06 (pool math)

Added 19 oz of 73% CalHypo

Test 23:30 9/1/19
FC - 12.5
CC - .5
Ph - 8+
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.43 (pool math)

Test 06:30 9/2/19
FC - 12.5
CC - .0
Ph - 8+
Alk - 90
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.48 (pool math)

Test 12:00 9/2/19
FC - 7
CC - .0
Ph - 7.8
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.29 (pool math)

Added 29 oz of 28.3% muriatic acid (Target Ph 7.2)

Yes I am aware I should only need to test once a day, I am doing this to try to figure out what is going on. Its a 3 day weekend so I have the time and it has given me a very good picture.
According to the experts here, when your chlorine is above 10, the PH reading is not reliable. Also, since you let your chlorine go to 0, TFP says you should do a SLAM.
 

redjeep61

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
34
Phoenix, AZ
Why are you chlorinating to 12-13 for CYA 30? You only need 4-6. See FC/CYA Chart.

pH will stay at 7.2 for a few seconds. The lower you take pH the faster it rises. It is not a linear function. The minimum you can lower your pH the slower it will rise.

Lowering your TA to 50-60 will slow the pH rise.

ajw,

Please tell me how you are managing your Chlorine, Ph and Alk on a daily basis. How much Chlorine and Acid typically daily / weekly?
 

redjeep61

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
34
Phoenix, AZ
According to the experts here, when your chlorine is above 10, the PH reading is not reliable. Also, since you let your chlorine go to 0, TFP says you should do a SLAM.
Jeff,

Please tell me how you are managing your Chlorine, Ph and Alk on a daily basis. How much Chlorine and Acid typically daily / weekly?
 

redjeep61

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
34
Phoenix, AZ
Currently I am going through 7-8 gallons of Chlorine a week and almost a gallon of Acid a week, seems high to me but I would like to hear what others are experiencing.

I am particularly interested in responses of others in the Sonoran Desert areas of AZ.

Anyone please share how you are managing your Chlorine, Ph and Alk on a daily basis. How much Chlorine and Acid typically daily / weekly?
 

mknauss

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Bronze Supporter
May 3, 2014
22,464
Laughlin, NV
I use my SWCG. It is currently creating 4 ppm of FC each day to maintain my FC at ~6ppm average with my CYA at 70 ppm.

I add about 16 oz of 31.45% muriatic acid a week. The TA is fairly steady at 80 ppm. I normally add acid twice a week. The pH is normally around 7.5 or 7.6 and I lower it to 7.2. I maintain a lower pH to keep my CSI negative to keep my SWCG free from calcium scale buildup.

Fill water TA is 130 ppm. Pool volume is 6000 gallons.
 
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ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
10,847
Northern NJ
ajw,

Please tell me how you are managing your Chlorine, Ph and Alk on a daily basis. How much Chlorine and Acid typically daily / weekly?
Daily I do nothing. My SWG gives me about 3ppm of cl a day. My TA has been 60 all season. Once a week I add about 64 oz of muriatic acid to being my pH from 8 to 7.6. I test my water around once a week for Cl and pH.
 
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Flying Tivo

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2017
1,108
Monterrey, NL, Mexico
FC above 10 will read a false high PH, so test PH before adding FC. Only test once a day. You are playing YO-YO with acid/baking soda. Just acid is all you need. The only need to move PH when between 7.2-7.8 is for CSI purposes. For swimming its all the same.
 

redjeep61

Active member
Sep 1, 2019
34
Phoenix, AZ
Here is the latest:

Tap / Fill Water - FC 0 / Ph 7.8 / Alk 150

Test 19:30 9/1/19
FC - 4
CC - 0
Ph - 7.6
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = -0.06 (pool math)

Added 19 oz of 73% CalHypo

Test 23:30 9/1/19
FC - 12.5
CC - .5
Ph - 8+
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.43 (pool math)

Test 06:30 9/2/19
FC - 12.5
CC - .0
Ph - 8+
Alk - 90
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.48 (pool math)

Test 12:00 9/2/19
FC - 7
CC - .0
Ph - 7.8
Alk - 80
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = 0.29 (pool math)

12:15 9/2/19 Added 29 oz of 28.3% muriatic acid (Target Ph 7.2)

Test 20:00 9/2/19
FC - 5
CC - .5
Ph - 7.8
Alk - 75
CYA - 30
Calcium - 250
Water Temp - 86 °F
CSI = -0.19 (pool math)

20:30 9/2/19 Added 11 fl oz of 73% calhypo (Target FC 10)