New pool build in LV

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I did a few head loss calculations and here is what I came up with.

Feature Recommendations:
6' Sheer - 90 GPM
3x1' Sheers - 45 GPM
1 Bubbler - 40 GPM
6 Jets - 30 GPM
Total Recommended Flow Rate: 205 GPM

Assumptions:

3" 45' Suction + 5 90s
1 Cartridge Filter
4 x (2.5" 45' Lines + 5 90s)
Feature head loss based upon documentation and flow rate balance to each element

Combined Plumbing curve = 0.002 (Curve E below)

Operating points:

WhisperfloXF: 181 GPM @ 65' of head
IntellifloXF: 167 GPM @ 56' of head
Intelliflo3: 154 GPM @ 47' of head

Technically, none of the pumps will provide the maximum flow rate recommended so you might be better off with two pumps. One for the sheers and one for the rest. This might be a better solution since shutting off one feature will require rebalancing the rest of the features for proper flow rate. Using a single pump for multiple features of differing head loss can be a challenge for balancing the flow rates as features are turned on and off.

Another option would be to use two very small pump's below DOE regulations, one for the bubbler and one for the deck jets. A 1/2 HP pump would probably be sufficient for those applications.


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@mas985 Thank you so much for all the details and putting that much time into your response!
Interesting how close a 3, 4 and 5HP pumps are together in terms of GPM.

Ideally I don't want more than 3 pumps. So what about using 3x IntellifloXFs as follows:
1: circulation, spa overflow and bubbler
2: spa jets
3: all sheers 135 GPM
And removing the deck jets.

would that be too much for the main pump? bubbler + spa overflow (not sure how much I can push through that pump with a heater, SWCG and potentially solar). The bubbler wouldn't run all the time and I could turn off the pool returns when running the bubbler.
I'm not sure how much GPM I should assume for the spa overflow.

If I were to run the bubbler of a separate pump which one should I look at? SuperFlo® with 1HP?
 
cactus_LV said:
would that be too much for the main pump? bubbler + spa overflow (not sure how much I can push through that pump with a heater, SWCG and potentially solar). The bubbler wouldn't run all the time and I could turn off the pool returns when running the bubbler.
I'm not sure how much GPM I should assume for the spa overflow.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't be an issue. Spa overflow is mostly cosmetic as long as the water in the spa is turned over once per week or two weeks. I run mine for an hour a day at about 35 GPM.

cactus_LV said:
If I were to run the bubbler of a separate pump which one should I look at? SuperFlo® with 1HP?
Click to expand...
You probably won't find a 1 HP because of DOE regs. Like I said in the post a 1/2 HP would be sufficient or a 3/4 HP depending on what is available.
 
cactus_LV said:
How much GPM can I expect from the main pump going through the filter, heater, swcg, solar?
Click to expand...
You only need 40-50GPM for the heater.

Solar depends on number of panels and manufacturer specifications for flow per panel.

Flow is not an issue for your main pump.
 
cactus_LV said:
How much GPM can I expect from the main pump going through the filter, heater, swcg, solar?
Click to expand...
Worst case, probably Curve A in the chart I showed earlier. 70-80 GPM at full speed.


1676734315981-png.473891
 
ajw22 said:
You only need 40-50GPM for the heater.
Click to expand...
My concern is not that the heater, SWCG or solar is getting too little water it's the opposite pushing too much through them (when the heater is off) to power the bubbler and spa overflow and pool returns.
mas985 said:
Worst case, probably Curve A in the chart I showed earlier. 70-80 GPM at full speed.
Click to expand...
I assume that is enough for bubbler, spa and maybe pool returns.
 
cactus_LV said:
My concern is not that the heater, SWCG or solar is getting too little water it's the opposite pushing too much through them (when the heater is off) to power the bubbler and spa overflow and pool returns.
Click to expand...

I have lost track of what equipment you are planning.

Gas heaters have a maximum flow rate around 100-120 GPM. Exceeding the max flow rate can erode the heat exchanger.

Get a gas heater with an automatic bypass. Pentair MasterTemp or Jandy JXI with Versaflo have them.

cactus_LV said:
I assume that is enough for bubbler, spa and maybe pool returns.
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You are asking the question like certain equipment consumes flow. It is the total of the “head” on the complete plumbing circuit that determines the flow the pump will give. All the devices get the same flow unless you have pipe restrictions or valves choking the flow to a device.

The question is the flow adequate for the device that requires the highest flow rate? That device is usually the heater.

The flow rate the bubbler gets determines the plume height. The bubbler Installation Manual tells you what you can expect to get.

The spa and pool returns don’t care about flow rate.
 
@ajw22 thanks for clarifying!
ajw22 said:
Get a gas heater with an automatic bypass. Pentair MasterTemp or Jandy JXI with Versaflo have them.
Click to expand...
My plan is to get the Pentair MasterTemp and I saw the automatic bypass I just wasn't sure if that causes less friction (I guess I should have know otherwise what's the point of a bypass 🤦‍♂️)

The IC40 manual says the following: "Operate unit with minimum flow of 25 gpm. For high flow applications, use a bypass loop." Now the question is how they define a high flow application :D

Are the pumps able to measure the GPM if not how do I know I am pushing enough water when running the system during off times?
 
cactus_LV said:
My plan is to get the Pentair MasterTemp and I saw the automatic bypass I just wasn't sure if that causes less friction (I guess I should have know otherwise what's the point of a bypass 🤦‍♂️)
Click to expand...

The MasterTemp bypass is external to the heater using an IntelliValve connected to the heater board. So you need to plan for it to be installed by the plumber.

The heater automatically opens water flow into the heater when heat is called for and bypasses the heater when the heater is idle.

full

cactus_LV said:
The IC40 manual says the following: "Operate unit with minimum flow of 25 gpm. For high flow applications, use a bypass loop." Now the question is how they define a high flow application :D
Click to expand...
Don’t worry about what is high flow. For your setup install the bypass loop with a diverter valve. Once you get your system running you adjust the bypass diverter so the SWG flow switch is engaged through the range of flow configurations you will run.

cactus_LV said:
Are the pumps able to measure the GPM if not how do I know I am pushing enough water when running the system during off times?
Click to expand...

You measure it by if the devices are working properly.

I think you are getting paralysis by analysis with too much focus on nailing numbers. Flow is a dynamic number that changes based on the equipment running and how dirty your filter is. You are not going to nail any one number.

You don’t care about the devices that require less than maximum flow. They will run fine.

Focus on if your design can service the high flow equipment and to the extent you can over design so you have some flow to spare.
 
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ajw22 said:
Don’t worry about what is high flow. For your setup install the bypass loop with a diverter valve. Once you get your system running you adjust the bypass diverter so the SWG flow switch is engaged through the range of flow configurations you will run.
Click to expand...
Oh I didn't think about a bypass for the SWG. With a bypass like that which is not controlled by the IC40 unit directly I am concerned that there will be some kine of machine or human error which bypasses the SWG completely and leaves it turned on.
 
cactus_LV said:
Oh I didn't think about a bypass for the SWG. With a bypass like that which is not controlled by the IC40 unit directly I am concerned that there will be some kine of machine or human error which bypasses the SWG completely and leaves it turned on.
Click to expand...
You set the diverter flow control valve on the SWG bypass loop once for the range of your pool operations and remove the handle to lock the setting in place.

And the SWG has a flow switch to shut it down if it gets no or inadequate water flow.

full
 
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cactus_LV said:
Won’t a fixed setting be a problem if I run the pump at 25% during the night and at 100% some other time?
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No, you will figure out a setting that works. The Intellichlor cell will take up to 100gpm. We will see what you get at 100% but in spite of all the calculations I will be suprised if you can push 100gpm at 100%.

Make some of your check valves Flowvis Flow Meters. That way you can see the flow and adjust it at various points.

FlowVis flow meter — H2Flow Controls

FlowVis flow meters are a revolution in reliable flow measurement. With unrivaled average accuracy, greater installation flexibility, and more NSF 50 certified models than any other brand, it’s easy to see why FlowVis® is a brand of flow meter you can put your trust in.
www.h2flow.net www.h2flow.net
 
ajw22 said:
No, you will figure out a setting that works. The Intellichlor cell will take up to 100gpm. We will see what you get at 100% but in spite of all the calculations I will be suprised if you can push 100gpm at 100%.

Make some of your check valves Flowvis Flow Meters. That way you can see the flow and adjust it at various points.

FlowVis flow meter — H2Flow Controls

FlowVis flow meters are a revolution in reliable flow measurement. With unrivaled average accuracy, greater installation flexibility, and more NSF 50 certified models than any other brand, it’s easy to see why FlowVis® is a brand of flow meter you can put your trust in.
www.h2flow.net www.h2flow.net
Click to expand...
If you are installing an Intelliflo, do you really need the Flo Meter?
 
The Intelliflo will display flow rate.

Also, most Intelliflo versions that the OP is considering will deliver more than 100 GPM on Curve C which represents fairly decent plumbing. I have better than Curve C plumbing and I have heater, swg, several valves, etc. So it isn't very hard for the Intelliflo to get above 100 GPM.

However, there is no reason you need to run at 100% anyway. You can set the maximum RPM such that the flow rate will never exceed 100 GPM.
 

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