New indoor pool chemistry advice?

[crustacean]

Hello,

We built a new pool recently and are new-to-pool owners. I've spent the last few months trawling these forums. So much helpful advice and demystification - thank you!

Our pool is about 3 months old now and while things seem OK day to day I was hoping to get some advice. It's an indoor pool so it's been hard to read between the lines on what advice is universal and what I need to tailor to our situation.

Pool is in my signature but before I forget my typical numbers are:
FC ~2-3, pH 7.4-8.0+ swings, TA 60, CH 475, CYA 0, Salt ~4700 Temp 82F

My questions:

• pH control. It's new plaster (diamond brite) so I understand we need to keep adding acid until it "settles down." But three months in I'm still adding 1-2 cups of 31% MA daily to <10k gallons. Is that expected? I feel like most people post about needing a little bit once a week but my daily pH reads are almost always over 8. I can only get an idea of pH by using the acid demand reagent - usually 1-2 drops will bring me back to 7.6 or 7.4 and I guess from there. I try to pick a pH so PoolMath agrees with the ph adjustment chart that comes with the Taylor kit.

I am wondering if my usage / configuration is the reason. The builder configured the pump going 24/7, and ~2200rpm as otherwise it's below the heater's min flow threshold. Our inset spa "spillover" runs 24/7 and spills over the entire 5'x7'x1' surface and not just a small tray or waterfall. When we actually use the spa (maybe ~1hr/day) it definitely makes even more bubbles. We also have a SWG going at 2-8% (depending on FC). We have an autocover but it's not a dramatic difference.

I don't mind the daily testing but I don't like that it shoots past 8.0 every day. Because I'm indoors I'd like to minimize the constant usage and handling of the acid and short of an intellichem I don't see how.

• chloramines and shock. When using the FAS-DPD I measure the FC and then measure the CC. CC is always present at 0.2 or 0.4 (that then goes to 0.2 after a day or so). Is that life or should I shock that to get it well and truly to 0? I read about MPS - is that what I need for shocking indoors? Or maybe I don't want sulfates because I have a SWG? I'm not sure what to do.

• FC and CYA indoors. Right now I have 0 CYA and FC wanders from 1-3ppm. I keep reading and re-reading but the chlorine-CYA chart doesn't seem to go low enough for my situation. What is the right approach? What am I watching out for?

Apologies if this is a bit much for a first post. Maybe a brand new indoor pool was not the simplest starting point for achieving a trouble free pool!

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! Some things to consider:
- You still need some CYA to condition the water from the chlorine. About 20 ppm should do fine. Use our PoolMath APP if needed.
- We consider a CC of 0.5 or less the same an zero, so you are fine.
- Don't run the waterfall/spill-over unless you have to. The aeration will increase pH.
- Your plaster may continue to cure for several weeks. Be vigilant and consistent with the pH testing and acid. No need to drive the pH really low at once though. When it hits 7.8 - 8.0, bring it down to about 7.5 - 7.6.
- You can afford the let the TA fall to about 50 but no lower.

Hope that helps.

 

[Newdude]

Hey Crustacean and Welcome !!!

chloramines and shock. When using the FAS-DPD I measure the FC and then measure the CC. CC is always present at 0.2 or 0.4 (that then goes to 0.2 after a day or so). Is that life or should I shock that to get it well and truly to 0? I read about MPS - is that what I need for shocking indoors? Or maybe I don't want sulfates because I have a SWG? I'm not sure what to do

.5 or under is fine.

FC and CYA indoors. Right now I have 0 CYA and FC wanders from 1-3ppm. I keep reading and re-reading but the chlorine-CYA chart doesn't seem to go low enough for my situation. What is the right approach? What am I watching out for?

Chlorine with no CYA is harsh. You do not need UV protection from the sun being indoors, but it will be less harsh on the swimmers than tap water with a CYA of 30. Add it and follow the chart accordingly. At any CYA level of the chart, it is the same % of FC. Swimming is safe for bathers and equipment up to SLAM level for any CYA. (40%).

pH control. It's new plaster (diamond brite) so I understand we need to keep adding acid until it "settles down." But three months in I'm still adding 1-2 cups of 31% MA daily to <10k gallons. Is that expected? I feel like most people post about needing a little bit once a week but my daily pH reads are almost always over 8. I can only get an idea of pH by using the acid demand reagent - usually 1-2 drops will bring me back to 7.6 or 7.4 and I guess from there. I try to pick a pH so PoolMath agrees with the ph adjustment chart that comes with the Taylor kit.

New plaster has a big appetite for 6-12 months, but you also have tons of aeration going on running higher RPMs for the heater and a large spillover. Are you able to run the spa only a couple of times a day to flush it when not in use ? That would help a bunch. Do you have to heat full time ? If not you cou could drastically lower the RPMs to where the SWG comes on.

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

Your spa spillover running 24/7 is contributing to your rapid pH rise. Hopefully your builder gave you a valve that will let you turn off the water to your spa when in pool mode. Then you schedule the SPILLOVER mode in your IntelliCenter to run once a day to refresh the spa water.

You should add 20 ppm of CYA. Chlorine without any CYA is harsh. 20 ppm of CYA is enough to buffer the harshness of the chlorine. See the notes below the chart in....

The Free Chlorine and Cyanuric Acid Relationship

Managing your cyanuric acid and Free Chlorine levels is key to stabilizing your pool. Learn how these two items affect each other.

www.troublefreepool.com

Which says...

For indoor pools we recommend CYA between 20 and 30ppm. The reasoning for using CYA indoors is quite different. For more information please ask on the forum.

Then maintain your FC at 3-5 ppm.

CC below 1 is not a problem. A CC of 0.2 or 0.4 just shows your chlorine is doing its sanitation job.

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum.

An indoor pool really should have a UV device (properly sized) to eliminate CC build up. Though yours is low, over time, it could become an issue.

 

[ajw22]

Do you have to heat full time ? If not you cou could drastically lower the RPMs to where the SWG comes on.

Running the heater and pump RPMS do not contribute to aeration. It is running the spa spillover and other water features.

Aeration - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Newdude]

Running the heater and pump RPMS do not contribute to aeration. It is running the spa spillover and other water features

Correct. And the spillover and other features are getting more flow due to the heater needing a min 2200 RPMs. Which makes more spillover / waterfall / surface movement from the returns/ etc no ?

 

[ajw22]

Correct. And the spillover and other features are getting more flow due to the heater needing a min 2200 RPMs. Which makes more spillover / waterfall / surface movement from the returns/ etc no ?

So the answer is stop running the spillover 24/7. Use the SPILLOVER function on the automation.

 

[Newdude]

And then the regular returns have more flow running 24/7 at 2200 RPMs because of the heater, creating more surface disturbance, jacking up the PH more than say, if we cut 1k RPMs with less heater time, no ?

 

[ajw22]

And then the regular returns have more flow running 24/7 at 2200 RPMs because of the heater, creating more surface disturbance, jacking up the PH more than say, if we cut 1k RPMs with less heater time, no ?

No, if the returns are pointed up causing surface disturbance then point them down.

2200 RPM is necessary when running the heater.

IntelliCenter should be programmed to run lower RPMs when heater is off and ramp up RPMs whenever heater is on. That is best practice for energy savings.

 

[Dirk]

An IntellipH acid dosing system is an alternative to the IntelliChem system, and for me at least, it's the better choice. And significantly less expensive. The IntellipH (IpH) is made to coexist with and enhance the IntelliChlor, and together they work great. You'll pour acid into the IpH every month or two, or three, depending on your pool, and that's the sum total of your acid handling. I run mine year-round. Love it.

Your pool's acid demand may settle down over time, or it may not. Mine didn't. I use much less now than I did during the first 12 months, but my pool is still thirsty for it. In addition to less handling, the other nicety is the IpH will add a shot of acid about every hour. It turns off the IntelliChlor while doing so, so that there is no chemical conflicts, and once done restarts the IntelliChlor. Hourly dosing means your pool's pH will be much more stable throughout the day, as opposed to dumping in one large, single dose every day or two. IMO, better for the plaster, better for the humans.

As suggested above, you can minimize the bubbling and splashing and surface movement that pushes your pH. Or you can automate acid dosing, scratch that off the daily/weekly maintenance list, and run your spa and heater and spillover anyway you want...

 

[crustacean]

Wow. Holy cow. I go hide in the spa for an hour to forget my worries and I am startled by the replies! Thank you everyone who has commented!

I will get some CYA to set it to somewhere between 20-30ppm. I guess if I am careful I can figure out my actual gallons.

It sounds like I should improve the tuning of my automation to eliminate the spillover as much as possible. From a practical standpoint its only use is lubricating the inset spa to keep the autocover from snagging, and that seems dubious at best. When using the pool we almost always turn on the spa (and with a 300k btu heater on a 500 gallon spa it heats up quick!) - we use a combined spa/pool as one body of water seems easier to maintain than two. Would chipping a small trench to reduce the spillover area and aeration make sense? Or I can try to accomplish the same using automation.

I will look into whether I can tell Pentair's automation to also increase pump speed when there's a heating demand call. That would definitely solve my minimum flow situation!

 

[ajw22]

I will look into whether I can tell Pentair's automation to also increase pump speed when there's a heating demand call. That would definitely solve my minimum flow situation!

You can.

The IntelliCenter folks can help you with the programming like @Turbo1Ton @matthewsunshineflorida @Jimrahbe

 

[crustacean]

An IntellipH acid dosing system is an alternative to the IntelliChem system, and for me at least, it's the better choice. And significantly less expensive. The IntellipH (IpH) is made to coexist with and enhance the IntelliChlor, and together they work great. You'll pour acid into the IpH every month or two, or three, depending on your pool, and that's the sum total of your acid handling. I run mine year-round. Love it.

Your pool's acid demand may settle down over time, or it may not. Mine didn't. I use much less now than I did during the first 12 months, but my pool is still thirsty for it. In addition to less handling, the other nicety is the IpH will add a shot of acid about every hour. It turns off the IntelliChlor while doing so, so that there is no chemical conflicts, and once done restarts the IntelliChlor. Hourly dosing means your pool's pH will be much more stable throughout the day, as opposed to dumping in one large, single dose every day or two. IMO, better for the plaster, better for the humans.

As suggested above, you can minimize the bubbling and splashing and surface movement that pushes your pH. Or you can automate acid dosing, scratch that off the daily/weekly maintenance list, and run your spa and heater and spillover anyway you want...

I have looked at IntellipH and IntelliChem. The ipH seems completely appropriate, but I keep wondering if the sensors on the ichem are worth it. I definitely feel like I'm adding the same acid every day (give or take a little) so maybe having a sensor I need to calibrate is simply more trouble. I think I secretly enjoy titrating so don't plan on stopping anytime soon.

How is the maintenance of the ipH? I saw it's either a new hose or a new pump "every season" and hard to know what that means for an indoor pool. I'd rather keep weird chemicals outside and pull them in every month or two than figure out hazmat cabinet ventilation!

 

[Dirk]

I have looked at IntellipH and IntelliChem. The ipH seems completely appropriate, but I keep wondering if the sensors on the ichem are worth it. I definitely feel like I'm adding the same acid every day (give or take a little) so maybe having a sensor I need to calibrate is simply more trouble. I think I secretly enjoy titrating so don't plan on stopping anytime soon.

How is the maintenance of the ipH? I saw it's either a new hose or a new pump "every season" and hard to know what that means for an indoor pool. I'd rather keep weird chemicals outside and pull them in every month or two than figure out hazmat cabinet ventilation!

When I wrote "for me at least, it's the better choice" I was referring to the sensors. Here's the rub. The chlorine dosing of the IntelliChem relies on technology that doesn't work well, or at all, with the CYA level I run my pool at. At CYA20-30 you might have better luck. And as you point out, the pH sensing requires calibration. No thanks. I don't think it's prudent to trust consumer electronics for the testing and dosing of a residential pool. Which means I'd want to back up the IntelliChem with my own testing. Say, once a week to be safe. Well, I only test my pool once a week now, so all the IntelliChem would provide me is one more thing to keep running. My pH is very stable with the IpH, so I don't have to fiddle around much with the IpH's settings. Same for my SWG. Testing is easy and reliable. So is the IpH/IntelliChlor combo. Together they eliminate all the maintenance I want eliminated. If Pentair offered me an IntelliChem for free, I'd pass. Maybe it works great, but I just don't have a use for it.

We've got another thread going where we're discussing the annual maintenance of IntellipH. I haven't touched mine for almost four years, others talk about two or three. Yes, Pentair recommends once a year, and that's probably prudent, but they're capable, at least for some of us, of going longer. The recommended maintenance is just the tube, not the motor. There's another part, too, that might need some love. It's called the "duck bill." It's a component of the injector. I haven't dealt with that yet, either. I don't actually know its replacement recommendation. But I'll probably just swap it out soon, just to play it safe.

I've burned my deck with muriatic. My arms. I've breathed it in. No thanks. (I need constant supervision!) Whatever maintenance my IpH needs, no problem, it's worth it.

I wouldn't want my IntellipH indoors. It does have a venting system, so it might be OK, but I'd be a little leery of that. Is your equipment pad indoors? If so, how close is the SWG to an outside wall? I don't know if there is a limit, but I imagine you could place the IpH at least 10' away from the pad, probably more. But yah, that's something to think through. And when an IpH is present, you have to plug the IntelliChlor into the IpH controller, not the IntelliCenter, so there's that. There would be some cable lengths to figure out.

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Well, I was getting ready to say, Intellicenter has an internal 'Heater' circuit bit that you can assign to a pump speed and anytime this bit is 'ON' it will raise the pump speed. See photo below.




However, it appears that Pentair has screwed this up with the latest firmware update. There does not appear to be a single 'Heater' bit any longer. They have broken it out into 'Pool Heater' and 'Spa Heater' and 'Ultratemp' and 'HeatPump' but oddly no 'MasterTemp' and the plain ol' 'Heater' bit is not showing up in the list.




I have not been out to the local panel to see what shows up there. This is on the webclient, and I had to refresh several times just to get this list to pull up. It is also currently showing my MasterTemp is not assigned a body or an address. So way to go Pentair.



Why did they change things that were working? Who knows. I supposed I'm glad I made my assignment prior to the change. Although now I'm wondering if it even works.

I don't know if the 'Pool/Spa' circuit is the heater circuit for when you have the heater assigned to both bodies. I suppose it could be, and they just forgot to add heater to the end. Although I wonder if that isn't just the internal Pool/Spa circuits. Because it looks like they got rid of the individual Pool and Spa circuits as I have assigned to my pump speeds above.

If I get a chance to get to the panel this evening, I'll take a look and see what is there. Hopefully this is an issue with the webclient and not the programming of the panel itself.

Maybe one of the other Intellicenter folks can weigh in on their experience.

--Jeff

 

[Turbo1Ton]

I just went and looked under the valve configurations and it appears that the 'Heater' circuit bit is still showing up over there on that page. So my guess is this is an issue with the webclient not pulling the complete list in when on the pumps page.



--Jeff

 

[crustacean]

Well, I was getting ready to say, Intellicenter has an internal 'Heater' circuit bit that you can assign to a pump speed and anytime this bit is 'ON' it will raise the pump speed. See photo below.

Thanks - still wrapping my head around what's possible with their logic. I went in and found under Advanced Settings -> Installation Setup -> Pumps that I could attach a new speed setting to my "Heater" circuit. I haven't updated to the new firmware yet (scared to, honestly) so maybe I am lucky! So now my default RPM Is ~1100 with heat off which is just enough to keep the SWG happy, then bump to 2300 when the heater call comes in. If I believe it's about 20GPM at 1100 that's still 3 water changes per day but I don't know that I want to go lower and complicate my SWG settings.

 

[ajw22]

that's still 3 water changes per day ....

Just for you to know that water turnover is a meaningless myth.

Your pool is sanitized by the chlorine in the water.

How little or how much your water changes a day makes no difference to the quality of your pool water. And running the pump enough to meet your SWG chlorine demand is sufficient for filtering the water.

Determine Pump Run Time

To figure out how many hours you need to run your pump, you need to know how fast your pump works. You can find this here.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[crustacean]

OK my builder had the spillover running on a 24/7 schedule with 100% of the water going over. I've deleted the schedule and turned off the spillover. I am still spilling over now but you can barely see it - the valve minimum was set to a slight angle so it doesn't completely close off the spa returns. I can see if this makes enough of a difference before doing something more complicated. Rather than two valves for (spa | pool) and (spa jet | spa return) I have (jet | return) and (pool return | spa return) which I think is non-standard. I could replumb (there are some other weird things to fix) but it seems to work.

One question I still had was on the shock - is the MPS non-chlorine shock the right stuff for an indoor setting? Something about sulfates? Maybe OK if I only need it once in a while? I am glad to hear I don't need it just yet but I have three kids so I know "events" are going happen whether I want them to or not...