new fill water after resurface test results - Help

jetskierg

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2019
47
Phoenix, Arizona
It only has me testing only PH, TA, CH everyday. If i listen to them i won't have any chlorine in my pool. Its 107 in the shade everyday now. I thought FC is one of the most important things to watch?

4th THROUGH THE 28th DAY
Step 1. Test pH, Carbonate Alkalinity and Calcium Hardness and repeat 1st Day Steps 1 through 5 every day for 14 days to help prevent the scaling of the pool surface.

4th day they request a different alkalinity test. How do i test carbonate alkalinity? (versus the usual alkalinity)
 

Richard320

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 6, 2010
23,858
San Dimas, CA (LA County)
It only has me testing only PH, TA, CH everyday. If i listen to them i won't have any chlorine in my pool. Its 107 in the shade everyday now. I thought FC is one of the most important things to watch?

4th THROUGH THE 28th DAY
Step 1. Test pH, Carbonate Alkalinity and Calcium Hardness and repeat 1st Day Steps 1 through 5 every day for 14 days to help prevent the scaling of the pool surface.

4th day they request a different alkalinity test. How do i test carbonate alkalinity? (versus the usual alkalinity)
Zero clue. I only know how to run the Taylor test which is total alkalinity.
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
18,918
Northern NJ
It only has me testing only PH, TA, CH everyday. If i listen to them i won't have any chlorine in my pool. Its 107 in the shade everyday now. I thought FC is one of the most important things to watch?
You apparently missed...

3rd DAY
Step 1. Test pH, Alkalinity and Calcium Hardness and repeat 1st Day Steps 1 through 6. 21
Step 2. Pre-diluted chlorine may now be added to achieve 1.5 to 3 ppm . NO SALT SHOULD BE ADDED FOR 28 DAYS.
Step 3. Brush the entire pool surface thoroughly at least twice daily to remove all plaster dust.

From day 3 through 28 maintain 3 ppm of FC. You can go higher with the risk of bleaching the color in your new plaster.

The TA test is the equivalent of Carbonate Alkalinity.
 

jetskierg

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2019
47
Phoenix, Arizona
Yes it mentions chlorine on day 3, but then never again. It never mentions to test FC or CYA ever. After 4th day it mentions calcium chloride and stabilizer.

Why is Alkalinity test called something different on the 4th day if it is the same? Does it have something to do with a certain calculation that has to be made for the Carbonate reading? Should I care? thx
3rd DAY
Step 1. Test pH, Alkalinity and Calcium Hardness

4th THROUGH THE 28th DAY
Step 1. Test pH, Carbonate Alkalinity and Calcium Hardness
 

jetskierg

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2019
47
Phoenix, Arizona
Found something about carbonate:
Is TA is affected by CYA levels?
Cyanurate does contribute to the TA.

Some test procedures say you should deduct 1/3 of your CYA from your TA to really get a true reading but this in effect is producing the carbonate alkalinity value. PoolMath accounts for the effect and no adjustment is needed for TFP Methods.
Taylor, for example, describes the practice of deducting 1/3 of the CYA value which in effect is removing the cyanurate alkalinity portion to produce the carbonate alkalinity value. Taylor then use this carbonate alkalinity value to calculate their Saturation index (SI).[4] In practice the concentration of the cyanurate ion is pH dependant where at a pH of 7.0 it is 0.22% of the CYA. The percentage increases with pH where at a pH of 8.0 it is 0.36% of the CYA value. [5]
 

jetskierg

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2019
47
Phoenix, Arizona
Thanks MKnauss. Thats kind of what I thought, so i shouldn't need to worry about raising calcium right? Yesterday it was 150. I think you are saying it is hard water and has a lot of calcium already right?
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
18,918
Northern NJ
Have you read ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry?

You are focusing on the least important chemical - TA, alkalinity.

The most important chemicals are FC and pH.

And you are getting yourself confused between TFP methods using PoolMath and other approaches.

If you want help with your start up then post a complete set of tests and lets benchmark where you are since you have not been following the startup procedures.
 

jetskierg

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2019
47
Phoenix, Arizona
I have pretty much been following startup procedures. pump been running since fill saturday night. brushing twice a day. testing almost everyday. I needed the pool math to tell me how much to put in. for example, Step 2 High alkalinity should be adjusted to 80 ppm using pre-diluted Muriatic Acid. I don't know what that means nor how to get to it without pool math.

We really have not been getting much plaster dust when brushing. My filter started at 3% and has stayed at 5% for days. I gave the cartridges a super cleaning before we started.
Sunday added acid and stabilizer per pool math based on my test numbers, monday added chlorine. Thursday added 128 oz more chlorine. We have been swimming yesterday and today and I added water last night. (out of pool around 1pm today)

Just tested.
PH - 8 (took 2 drops after that to go to 7.6 color, whatever that means)
TA - 150 (to darker pink, can it really go to true red or is dark pink it?)
CH - 160 to blue
FC - 3.0
CC - 1.0
CSI - 0.2 (water is 86 degrees)

So I'm thinking I need to put in more chlorine tonight. If I need to work on calcium hardness then I need to order some calcium chloride for pools, not deicer.

Just fyi, Start UP from National Plaster council uses LSI. LANGELIER SATURATION INDEX - Maintain the water chemistry using the Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) maintained between 0.0 and + 0.3.
• Free Chlorine = 1 to 3 ppm • pH = 7.2 to 7.6 • Calcium hardness = 200 to 400 ppm • Salt Level = 2500 to 3500 ppm • Total Chlorine = 1 to 3 ppm • Carbonate Alkalinity = 80 to 120 ppm • Cyanuric acid = 30 to 50 ppm (Salt chlorination ONLY)
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
18,918
Northern NJ
Just tested.
PH - 8 (took 2 drops after that to go to 7.6 color, whatever that means)
TA - 150 (to darker pink, can it really go to true red or is dark pink it?)
CH - 160 to blue
FC - 3.0
CC - 1.0
CSI - 0.2 (water is 86 degrees)
CYA?


So I'm thinking I need to put in more chlorine tonight. If I need to work on calcium hardness then I need to order some calcium chloride for pools, not deicer.
After the 4th Day - low calcium levels should be adjusted slowly over the 28 day period not to exceed 200 ppm

So you have 40 ppm of CH to add over the next 21 days. That is about 7 lbs of calcium chloride. Once you get the CH then space it out over the remaining days. No rush to get it in.

Just fyi, Start UP from National Plaster council uses LSI. LANGELIER SATURATION INDEX - Maintain the water chemistry using the Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) maintained between 0.0 and + 0.3.
• Free Chlorine = 1 to 3 ppm • pH = 7.2 to 7.6 • Calcium hardness = 200 to 400 ppm • Salt Level = 2500 to 3500 ppm • Total Chlorine = 1 to 3 ppm • Carbonate Alkalinity = 80 to 120 ppm • Cyanuric acid = 30 to 50 ppm (Salt chlorination ONLY)
CSI is TFP's version of LSI that simplified it for pool care. In the process things like the carbonate alkalinity was simplified so everyone did not need to make the adjustment calculations. So ignore the LSI and use TFPs' simplified.

TFPs plaster expert says:

The CSI is not applicable to new plaster finishes under 30 days old. It is actually necessary, to achieve a smooth and dense surface, to have about a +0.5 CSI during the first 30 days. This is because the plaster (cement paste) surface contains about 20% calcium hydroxide, which is somewhat soluble in balanced and slightly positive CSI water and can be dissolved away. The plaster surface needs to be "carbonated" before the CSI should be lowered to the acceptable and balanced range. And that generally is achieved during the first month under balanced water.

So keeping your CSI on the high side of 0.3 though a bit higher pH is preferred over the NPT guide. Don;t sweat it and you cant keep your chemcials that precise. You look like you are doing fine now.


I pointed you to the NPC startup but there are others - Plaster Start-Up Guides - Further Reading - if you study them they all basically end up being the same.
 

jetskierg

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2019
47
Phoenix, Arizona
Thanks for the video. No don't have one of those yet.
Question about CH. I'm going to order some from Home Depot but won't arrive for week or more. They are very limited as everything else is sold out online and the store shelves are bare. They have Robelle brand says 'calcium chloride compound'. Does that mean it has something else mixed in and should I worry about that? It would arrive june 12th - 15th. On sale for 16 lbs for $24. Had 25 lbs for 31.73, but of course that is sold out and not available.
or they have Bare Ground Cal Plus that won't arrive til june 24th or so. Doesn't say what it is on the label.
 

ajw22

Gold Supporter
TFP Guide
Jul 21, 2013
18,918
Northern NJ
My water has sufficient calcium that I have not needed to shop for it. I would be concerned if I didn’t know the ingredients. This is where I might buy calcium from a pool store knowing it was suitable for pools.
 

jetskierg

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2019
47
Phoenix, Arizona
I figured calcium would keep going up on its own since we have hard water, and it has been. up to 210 now. i bought CC at pool store yesterday anyway. Numbers today are:
FC - 2
CC - .5
PH - 7.8
TA - 500 ( never turned what i call red even after 20 drops, stayed same color from 11 drops on up. maybe im just color blind)
CH - 210
CSI - 1.0
CYA - 43 (just to verify, in pool math temp is the pool water right?)

My question is; what is going on with my TA? Keep in mind this is a new resurface, and is 260 the goal for CH? thx
 

mknauss

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Bronze Supporter
May 3, 2014
30,848
Laughlin, NV
Your TA is not that high. Your fill water is around 130 ppm. Have you tried testing your fill water?
Continue adding drops until the color changes to something more or less red, pink, yellow, or clear. The sample may switch between green, blue, and gray while you are adding drops. That is not the color change you are waiting for.

Temperature in Poolmath is water temperature.

Up to you but your CH will climb on its own. I would not add any calcium.