New build starting in 3 months - pls critique PB's design/suggestions!

[uosuof]

Hello Masters TFPers!

My pool design is virtually complete, with build scheduled for spring 2021, and I have a different view WRT equipment compared to what PB has suggested. I have tried to read the entire forum over the past few months (!) and here are my thoughts based on what I think I learned from my research... Would love your perspective.

Pool will be a 34x14 rectangular vinyl hopper style with deep end 7 or 8 deep (TBD now waiting to hear if 8' is feasible without too steep of a slope). Just over 19k gallons. On one of the 34' sides there will be a 6' sheer descent waterfall (w/dedicated 1.5hp pump). On the other 34' side there will be a bench running all the way from shallow to deep end. No spa.

Below are PB's suggestions and my thoughts:

• 24" Jandy SFTM top-mount filter w/ 350 lbs. of silica sand I feel like, as I am planning to upgrade to VS pump as mentioned below, cartridge filter may better accomodate the higher flow rate that VS pump may generate when occasionally run on higher speed...and also better filtration overall... though I am not sure if it would be better compared to the glass media option suggested below. Also I think cartridge better for SWG for reasons explained below...
• Pentair 1HP Superflo single speed Would like to upgrade to either Superflo VS or Intelliflo. I gather the difference is former is cheaper but only 3 set speeds (which are prob enough for me)
• Hayward C250EXP automatic chlorinator I'm planning to upgrade to SWG, but will have them install this as it is included in the quote, as backup
• Rheem Ray-Pak 266, 000 BTU I understand with SWG I should opt for cupronickel version of this..Also, perhaps I should step up one size?
• 1 expanded throat skimmer Do you think with this size pool I should have 2 instead of 1? If 2 skimmers are better, can I still run VS pump at low speed or would I need to (+/-) double it? Also, if I upgrade to VS pump and plan to run it 80% of the time at low speed, would a venturi skimmer be a smarter idea given the lower flow?
• 3 returns I think I should ask for 4 returns, one on each corner of the rectangular pool to facilitate clockwise flow. Also, with a long, 34' bench, I feel I might need extra returns (or venturi jets) along that bench?
• 2 main drains plumbed to the skimmer I think this is done for safety purposes to minimize chance of entrapment, which I appreciate hugely with small kids. But I also feel like separate lines for drains and skimmer is prob way more efficient. Any thoughts please?
• Autofill system I'm good with this!

They also suggested as options/add-on:

• Zodiac IQ904PS for automation I feel like if I upgrade to Superflo/Intelliflo VS then automation (and SWG) should be Pentair too. However, I would really like automation to integrate with my google home, which there's none out there. Can someone talk me out of automation please?!! If I have a programmable VS pump, and all auxiliary devices (SWG, heater, acid dispenser potentially) have flow switches, then I just set their % potency first manually and then they all turn on/off automatically with VS pump, don't they? What value does automation add?
• Jandy Aqua Pure for SWG See above. Thinking of Pentair Intellichlo40, just for better integration
• 24" Activated Filter Media (Glass) (11 20kg bags) to use with sand filter instead of sand As mentioned, no clue if cartridge filter would be better vs sand filter w/glass media? Even if both filtered comparable particle size, I feel with SWG I do not want to backwash constantly so I dont have to keep re-adding CYA and so a cartridge filter is perhaps better than sand for salt.. make sense?

In addition, I am thinking of adding IntelliPH (especially if I end up going with Pentair SWG as suggested above). My thought about the value of PH automation come from (1) waterfall and (2) venturi jets along bench, both of which would cause large aereation I understand, driving PH up constantly. Do you agree this makes sense? If I have to add a bit of MA once/twice a month, probably not worth the expense, but I feel with this set up keeping PH level could be laborious...

Pls feel free to critique my views here... posting this to learn from you all while I can before it's built! Big thanks
Cheers

 

[clambert1273]

just in my personal opinion, Sand filter is easy maintenance wise and long lasting, I have a DE filter which I love them but am going with a cartridge in my reno for one reason only, I flood my yard when backwashing and my dogs end up a muddy mess so at least I won't / can't backwash with cartridge @Jimrahbe is gonna be your equipment guru to scan what you posted lol

 

[uosuof]

thank you. any thoughts on the equipment are most appreciated. i'm v new here but wealth of knowledge seems truly impressive.

btw, if anyone knows how to get Taylor kits in Canada (k2006) for a decent price would love to know as well... found some US imports but seem to run ~CAD300+ a piece... kinda defeats the purpose of going TFP/BBB to save money on maintenance!

 

[Newdude]

if anyone knows how to get Taylor kits in Canada (k2006) for a decent price

We've seen many with the same headache.

found some US imports but seem to run ~CAD300+ a piece... kinda defeats the purpose of going TFP/BBB to save money on maintenance!

We like to call $300 'one trip to the pool store'. It will save you 2 years worth of trips to the pool store, but still ouch. Lol.

The best thing that anybody can say about the glass media is that it works as well as sand. It will never work better than sand yet it costs alot more. I am a cartridge guy but both the other two systems have millions of clear pools as proof they work. Check the pros/cons of all 3 in pool school and ask away if you have any further thoughts.

Pool Filter Comparison

Your pool's filter is a vital part of your equipment pad. We'll take a look at each type of filter and list the pro's and con's of each.

www.troublefreepool.com

Zodiac IQ904PS for automation

Jim will be around to walk you through the equipment but you definitely want them to be the same brand so they all communicate and work together. I am a biased pentair guy but just like the filters, there are millions of pools killing it with the other 2 brands.

Get the bigger heater if you want to extend the swim season because Toronto. Heating requires flat out BTUs and more BTUs will heat the pool faster. The downside is they will still use those more BTUs when its hot out, but you'll be cooler more than you'll have hot weather.

 

[mknauss]

if anyone knows how to get Taylor kits in Canada (k2006) for a decent price would love to know as well.

Pool Test Kits - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Yet another, Test Kits in Canada Thread

Oh yes... another thread for all us Canadians! Long winded post here. After spending a lot of time reading how important it is to test your own water (no test strips....and not pool store testing), I decided it was time to get myself a test kit. This is my third summer owning the pool. I wanna...

www.troublefreepool.com

If you get automation, then the pump, SWCG, and automation is best to be from one manufacturer.
A single speed pump is an energy hog. We recommend a VS pump. You mention two Pentair VS pumps. The Superflo VS will NOT hook up to automation easily.
With a vinyl liner I would not recommend installing a main drain. A source of leaks in the future. Get a sump pump for those time you need to lower water level.

 

[Dirk]

All Pentair IntelliFlo VS pumps (not SuperFlo). Absolutely do not get a single speed pump.

I'm a big fan of the IC40/IntellipH combo. pH will be more stable in your vinyl pool than my plaster pool, but without the IpH I think you'll find yourself using the waterfall less. In wintertime, both the IC and the IpH will not function (below 50°F water temp), so that is something to work through if you're not going to be heating year-round.

I have a cartridge filter, which I like. But nothing else to compare to. Sand filters must be backwashed for cleaning which uses water and must be routed somewhere. But then cleaning four cartridges in your yard is not much different.

I like my PoolMiser autofill and overflow control system. I would not have a pool without that it, as it controls the water level rain or shine. My system allows me to control the water level and overflow threshold, which I manipulate to help with chemical accumulation.

I would not own even a simple pool without automation. In fact, I wish my system was more robust (more schedules). I need scheduling and/or control of heater runtime, cleaner runtime, SWG runtime, high-speed skimming on-demand, pool light, color of light, freeze protection and general pool filtering. They wouldn't work well, at all, if they all came on and turned off at the same time. Most of those require a different pump RPM for optimum performance, and adjustments throughout the change of seasons, and as the filter accumulates crud. Automation handles all of that. I do most all of that adjusting from a phone or computer, and almost never at the equipment pad. I can't imagine running all that manually, requiring a trip to the pad, outdoor, day or night, rain or shine. A pool is a luxury item. The % of added expense to fully automate it, and make it truly luxurious, is minor compared to the entire cost of the pool. Which, by the way, would be my rationale to include an IntellipH even if I barely had a reason to need one. Handling chlorine and acid and constantly turning valves and flipping switches... no thanks.

Get the bigger heater.

Get two skimmers, home-run plumb them back to the pad, to a three-way valve, so you can balance them as needed or even shut one down if you want to for some reason, but you can't add one later. With a VS pump, you don't need to worry much about flow, the pump will handle what you need and only what you need.

Eliminate drains altogether. They virtually do nothing for circulation. And no configuration of drains or how they're plumbed is safer than no drains at all. There are plenty of alternate ways to remove water, should you ever need to. And as Marty points out, one less set of pipes and vinyl penetrations to worry about. And no drains is another reason to have two skimmers.

As mentioned, if automation is even a remote possibility (Get it? Remote possibility!), then you want pump, SWG and automation to be of the same brand. If you go Pentair, then you definitely only want the IntelliFlo pump(s).

While heaters and filters don't need to be of the same brand as automation, at least in case of the filter, if you purchase a Pentair filter along with other select Pentair items, all at the same time on the same invoice, Pentair will extend the warranty of those items, along with almost any other Pentair items on that invoice, to three years. I don't know if the other brands do that.

I vote for the four returns, for the whirlpool effect you described. With the two skimmers and the four returns and two 3HP VS pumps, not only will your pool be free of all surface gunk, you should be able to get a decent ride on a wakeboard or inner tube!

 

[uosuof]

WRT getting rid of the main drains, I get the potential failure point with extra pipes and leaks, and I understand there is an element of safety... but what are the downsides? I am using a big, well-established pool builders that's been building vinyl pools over here for 80 years... there's got to be some positive net value if it's something they install, isnt there? I might still go without, and replace/supplement with an extra skimmer instead, but would love to understand the downside...

... and, if I do add the extra skimmer as suggested, is there value in a venturi skimmer? the literature seems to suggest increased performance with the lower flow rates you get from running VS pumps at lower RPMs.... but I dont have the knowledge or experience to understand if this is just marketing or indeed smarter hydraulics.... and If i did, should it be both skimmers as venturi, or a combination? If anyone has experience with this setup, i would love to hear your perspective...

The PB only talked about the autofill...didnt mentioned, nor have I ever heard of, an "overflow control system". What is it? Sounds like the opposite of an autofill to automatically drain excess water??

 

[Jimrahbe]

U,

I suggest that you get all Jandy or all Pentair, not a mix of the two.. As has been pointed out.. the Pentair SuperFlo does not integrate with automation systems.. I would get the IntelliFlo which does integrate with automation.. It will move more water at lower RPMs so normal skimmers will work just fine. I have two regular skimmers and run at 1200 RPM with no skimming issues at all.. This speed also turn on my salt cell...

I suggest you get two skimmers mounted to two adjacent walls..

I would get 4 returns..

A SWCG needs to have two safety devices.. The primary device must insure that the SWCG system gets no power when the pump is not being told to run. The backup, or secondary, safety device is the flow switch. Although it does not happen often, if the cell gets power without water flow, it can explode... One reason to get automation is because both safety systems are in one package. Another reason is because it will give you the ability to change pumps speeds, turn on, or change the color of your lights, turn on your waterfall etc.. all from your PC, phone, or tablet.

Not having automation is like not having a key fob, or power windows in your car.. No one "needs" them, but who buys a car without them???

Main drains are installed in pools because they have always been installed in pool, not because they are of any real value. I have two rent house pools that have not had operating main drains for the past 10 years.. They work just fine.. I suggest you ask your pool builder what they are for??? Tell us what he says..

I don't have an automated fill system, but I do have a pipe from my water supply that feeds through a sprinkler valve and into the pool. I push a button on my automation and it fills the pool.

I would never build a pool that did not have an overflow line.. Depends on location.. If you get a lot of rain it will keep the pool from overflowing the coping.

I would not initially get any acid feeder.. In most cases, you just don't need it.. After one season you will know whether you are going to have a pH issue or not.

I would go with a large cartridge filter.. With a VS pump, you should be able to go all season without cleaning it, and then just take it apart and clean it when you close the pool for the winter.

I have three pools that all have IntelliFlo pumps, EasyTouch automation with internal SWCG power supplies and IC40 Salt Cells. I love them... If I were going to build a new pool today, I would buy the new IntelliCenter with the same basic equipment, but the EasyTouch with ScreenLogic will work just fine.. I admit I am a highly biased Pentair kind-of guy..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

The PB only talked about the autofill...didnt mentioned, nor have I ever heard of, an "overflow control system". What is it? Sounds like the opposite of an autofill to automatically drain excess water??

Yes, there are lots of ways to skin this cat. Jim mentions one, a sort of hybrid auto fill, but has to be turned on and off manually. And some overflow systems are just holes or grates in the side of the pool that allow excess water to drain off. Some auto-fill systems are just for filling.

The system I have (pool miser.com) has both systems built-in to one unit (called "auto-leveler"), a 6" diameter well of water that connects to the pool via an equalizer tube that enters the pool a few feet below the surface. Because water seeks its own level, the system can add and remove water from the well and the level of the well will match the level of the pool, and vice versa. Both the water level, and the threshold when the overflow will drain water, are fully adjustable. Something not true of just a hole in the side. And because the well is separate from the pool, waves and ripples won't wastefully enter a grate in the pool. The auto-filler in the well works much like a toilet valve does, it comes on when the level is low, and turns off when the pool is full.

Once setup, you don't have to think about your pool's water level again: never too full or too low, rain or shine.

 

[Dirk]

Drains were primarily used "way back when" before there were vacuums and robots to clean your pool. You could run a hand held vacuum (on a long pole) or you could use a pool sweep to push all the crud to the drain and let the drain suck it up. The secondary purpose was to circulate the water some (so it was thought), and lastly to drain the pool (which realistically happens a few times in the life of a pool, if that).

The circulation aspect is not very effective, at all. Pushing water (like from a return) is what circulates your pool. Sucking it out of a drain moves only the water a few inches from the drain. Hardly any, in other words. Returns are now fitted with adjustable "eyeball" fixtures that allow you to direct the flow of water left, right, up, down, etc. Previously a return was just a hole in the pool wall. Eyeballs take care of all the circulation now.

Single drains turned out to be killers, and now drains are all fitted with special anti-entrapment safety covers and installed in pairs, so they are now considerably safer, and uglier. But as I mentioned: no drains are inarguably safer still (and literally nothing to look at).

To be fair, there is one other use for a drain, and only applies if your skimmer is setup to close itself off if the water gets too low. Say you're away and you have forgotten to top off your pool before you left, or maybe your auto-filler stops working. Then the water evaporates below the skimmer inlet. The pump will suck air and potentially burn itself out. So instead, a skimmer with a self-closing port would shut down the skimmer, and then the pump would draw water from the drain. So that's really the only useful purpose left for a drain. For that to work, you have to leave the drain valve open 24/7, which just robs flow from the skimmer(s). There are other setups, where the drain is actually connected to the skimmer, and only kicks in when the water drops. I had that system, but it wasn't ever setup to work, so it was useless. Other systems connect the skimmer to a hole in the side, a few feet below the skimmer, which draws water if the skimmer runs dry, so no drains needed.

I had my drains removed, and don't worry about the pool running dry. The auto-filler takes care of that, and I have a pool cam to keep an eye on the water level while I'm away. No unsightly drains to look at. Nothing to trip up my vacuum or my toes. And no lurking danger to my long-haired granddaughter or her friends. For me, the safety aspect far outweighs the minuscule possibility I might someday, maybe lose a pump.

Pool builders build pools with drains because they always have and don't think twice about it...

 

[pjt]

My new pool has two skimmers and no main drains. It's very simple, effective, and efficient. I operate my VSP 24/7 and it costs me around $5/month to operate.

I also have my fill line controlled by a sprinkler control valve, and I really like that setup. I also have a simple overflow drain, but I wish I had one that I could simply cap or plug so I would have complete control over it.

 

[Dirk]

The overflow port of a Poolmiser leveler is a vertical 1" PVC pipe, which can be easily shortened, lengthened or capped for complete control of the overflow threshold level.

Another obscure advantage of the Poolmiser auto-leveling system is one I use to maintain my pool chemistry. Pools naturally accumulate calcum and salt because these elements don't evaporate with the water. Even non-SWG pools accumulate salt, which is left behind by humans, chlorine and acid. Calcium comes in with your fill water. These elements have a range of levels that is OK for your pool, but once they accumulate beyond that range, you have to exchange pool water to lower those levels back down.

One way to exchange water is to pump some out and refill it with your garden hose. This is costly, and the water from your hose can contain some salt and most likely contains calcium, and sometimes a lot of calcium. So you can see how this is counter-productive.

Another way to exchange water is to collect salt- and calcium-free rain water in the pool and let the "bad" water drain out of the overflow. But fresh rain water floats on top of salty pool water. And if your overflow port is a grate or hole in the side of your pool, that's going to siphon off a lot of this healthy fresh water before it can mix in with your pool water.

Because a Poolmiser connects to your pool via an equalizer tube, located a few feet below the surface of the water, the water that will overflow from your pool due to rain will exit from a couple feet down, which is the salt- and calcium-rich water you want to get rid of! The fresh rain water floating on the surface will then mix in and none of it is lost.

This process happens without my intervention, but I can speed it up if I need to by topping off my Poolmiser's overflow pipe with a 1" coupler, which extends the pipe a couple inches, allowing the rain to fill the pool higher than normal, then removing the coupler after a good rain storm is over. This will capture an extra couple of inches of rain water, and drain off that same amount of "bad" water from below. I use a coupler instead of a PVC cap so the water level will only get so high.

Like I said, obscure. But this does work and between the low-calcium softwater I use to replace evaporation and my Poolmiser, I never have to pump water out of my pool to exchange it to maintain stable salt and calcium levels. Neat-o! (That's right, I said "Neat-o!")

 

[uosuof]

Most helpful - thx for the detailed advice on the workings of autofill and the (lack of) value in drains.

Here is a thought, on the value of main drains. I understand (I think I do!) that in concrete or fiberglass pools main drains are a must because they allow for a hydrostatic valve to keep pressure from raising ground water at bay. It seems this isnt the case with vinyl... and it seems to me that perhaps ppl tend to think so because the groundwater just pushes up on the liner, bubbling up, and then when it recedes the liner goes back in place (as opposed to structurally cracking/popping the concrete/fiberglass shell in other pools). However, when that happens the liner doesnt return to the exact same position, folds over, and you get ugly wrinkles. So, my question is, and I am just speculating (though I think there is some logic to this), if one keeps drains in a vinyl pool, with a hydrostatic relief valve, would that help prevent groundwater pressure from causing liner wrinkles on the bottom of the pool?

 

[Dirk]

I don't know much about hydrostatic valves. But if you want to keep a liner in place, I think there is a better way to handle it (still no drain).

This is what happens:



This is how to combat it:



Again, not knowing too much about this topic, I would think that having a fixed drain/hydrostatic valve in the bottom of a liner that is prone to moving up and down would lead to a disaster if the vinyl pulled itself away from the drain...

And I think you might have it wrong about a hydrostatic valve being necessary in a concrete or fiberglass pool. I don't have one, and didn't even before I removed my drains. Maybe it's only comes into play if you pump out the water when the surrounding ground water is high. But we'll need one of our experts to weigh in about what a hydrostatic valve is for and when it is needed. @jimmythegreek?

 

[uosuof]

Thank you - yes, groundwater drainage similar to what you suggested is planned for. Glad to see that mitigates my concerns!