New (+1st timer) Pool Build - North DFW

[convan23]

I'm going to try and keep a running index of major updates to make this story/conversation easier to track.

1. Oct 2021: Thread origin, see story below (we went w/ Builder B and contracted in Oct)
2. Mar 2021: Still haven't dug, considered switching builders
3. Mar 2021: We fired our builder and signed with a new one (signing w/ Builder C below)
4. April 21 2021: Dig Started!
5. May 28 2021: after a month of constant rain, rebar!
6. July 13 2021: Gunite!
7. Aug 24 2021: Tile & Coping!
8. Sept 13 2021: Decking!
9. Oct 21 2021: Plaster, more info on startup
10. Oct 22 2021: The SAGA continues
11. Nov 1-2 2021: Plaster
12. Nov 3 2021: I have concerns with startup process
13. Nov 9 2021: ...and now we have a leak
14. Nov 18 2021: Getting shocked when touching the pool water

-----------------

Great community, glad I found you all before I ended up with a UV+OZONE pool that is too shallow with lights shining in my face!

I'm far enough along in this process now that I'd love some advice and feedback (also, good time of any to start journaling the build!). We're down to 3 builders. All seem to be very reputable builders in the area with their own pros and cons. To start, I would really like any advice from the community on how to pick one of these builders to go with, but I plan on keeping this post updated as we go along the process!

Our build includes:

• Just under 600 sf, 15k gallon "play" pool. Straight-line design with large tanning ledge
• Most likely T or L shaped pool with 18x30' main section and 9x12' tanning ledge. No spa (this is Texas y'all!)
• 800-900sf of new concrete decking, most likely with turf borders and large "paver" look
• ~300sf covered structure with storage large enough for riding mower, lawn equipment, and pool "toys"
• Fence and landscaping to come later
• A smooth (probably polished) plaster. For some reason my feet cannot stand pebble, even PebbleTec Sheen. We want a light plaster anyways, so a polished marble seems like a good option for us.

To keep this as brief as possible, going to try and just list main points for each builder. I'm also attaching a screenshot of a spreadsheet with the same information!

Builder A ($82k w/o covered structure)

• ~20 years in business, hard to find a negative review
• Built 1 other pool in our neighborhood, their build seemed to take a long time (6+ months) but I know owners made changes during the build process
• Located furthest away - 45+ minutes. Very busy, takes days to get updates and 2 weeks later we still don't have a finalized bid. He's responsive, just slow to get updates.
• Pool Bid:
  • ~$68k for 30'x21.5' T shaped pool, 7'x12' tanning ledge, 3.5' shallow, 5' in center, 4' other side, 103' perimeter, 582 sf
  • 6 hours included excavation, $375/hr rock charge if rock is hit
  • Not recommending soil injections based off of experience in area, but engineer will be onsite to determine
  • Shell: 4 bar box 1/2", 3/8" on 10" centers
  • Plumbing: 2 bubblers, 2 skimmers, 5 returns, overflow line and hose bib fill
  • Plaster: Finest Finish Arctic Coast Polished Pebble, Glass and Abalone (any color)
  • Lights: 5x Jandy LED (not sure on model, just shows Jandy LV LED)
  • Equipment: Jandy "E-pump" VS, Jandy high-flow commercial "water polishing" cartridge filter, Jandy iAqua Link
  • Sanitation: Nature 2 (will switch to salt system)
  • Cleaner: Polaris Quattro, 3/4hp booster (will likely have him remove and I'll buy a robotic afterwards)
  • Porcelain waterline tile, Travertine coping
  • Misc: includes custom volleyball net and upgrading existing gates to pool code (don't actually need the latter)
• Decking:
  • ~$16k for 825 sf salt texture and a turf border around all edges
• Covered Structure:
  • Still waiting for price details
• Warranties:
  • 3 year Jandy Equipment
  • Lifetime Structure
  • 10 year Plaster Material
  • 1 year everything else

Builder B ($86.5k w/ everything)

• ~50 years in business. Only negative reviews I can find indicate they can be slow in customer service / after-build issues
• Built several pools in our neighborhood (4 or so this year alone), all the builds were completed pretty quickly (6-8 weeks max). Visited one of the sites and it was very clean 3/4 of the way through. Owner very happy.
• Located just down the street. Their sales rep is really good, while he's also very busy has spent the most time with us and seems to be working hardest to earn our business. He stays engaged during build process (even showed me text threads with each of the people he's building with)
• Local Pentair distributor
• Pool Bid:
  • ~$63k for 30'x22' T shaped pool, 7'x12' tanning ledge, 4' depth on sides 5' in center, 104' perimeter, 587 sf
  • Recommending (but not requiring) soil injections unless we hit rock
  • No excavation overages unless rock is hit, $375/hr rock charge. Based on other pools built on our street, and soil report I gave him, doesn't expect to hit Rock.
  • Shell: 4 bar box 1/2", 3/8" on 10" centers
  • Plumbing: 1 bubbler, 2 skimmers, 4 returns, overflow line and autofill
  • Plaster: Durazzo Polished Marble/Quartz/Glass (all of the owners have this, showed me many pictures, they like it a lot)
  • Lights: 4x Globrite Color LED Lights
  • Equipment: Pentair Intelliflo VS SVRS, Pentair Clean & Clear Cartridge, Pentair Screenlogic PL4 (Yes, I'll ask to switch to non-SVRS and Intellicenter)
  • Sanitation: Intellichlor Salt
  • Cleaner: Pentair 920 Robotic Cleaner (haven't got final price on this, current bid includes $1500 budget, might switch to comparable Dolphin model if too expensive)
  • Some glass waterline tile options included (or porcelain), Travertine Coping
• Decking:
  • ~$14k for 860sf salt texture, 60' of steps, 160 sf of turf
• Covered Structure:
  • ~$16k for 252sf structure with tongue/groove cedar ceiling and walls, 3 doors to storage unit, and electrical (outlet, switch, light)
    (I'll most likely have him increase size of structure to match others)
• Warranties:
  • 2-3 years on Pentair equipment
  • 10 year structure
  • 1 year plaster workmanship, 5 year plaster material (doesn't require any water testing)
  • 1 year everything else

Builder C ($96k w/ partial covered structure - no walls/doors yet)

• ~20+ years in business. Top builder in DFW, in top lists nationally
• Haven't gone through full design process yet, just sent over spec to get a soft bid started. Only took 3 days to get initial bid back.
• Pool Bid:
  • ~$69k for same specs as builder B - 30'x22' T shaped pool, 7'x12' tanning ledge, 4' depth on sides 5' in center, 104' perimeter, 587 sf
  • Recommending soil injections based on soil maps
  • 8 hours of excavation included, no rock overages unless we go over 8 hours
  • Shell: 6 bar box 1/2", 3/8" on 10"
  • Plumbing: 0 bubbler, 2 skimmers, 5 returns, 1 overflow, hose bib fill and overflow
  • Plaster: Wet Edge Primera Polished, any color
  • Equipment: Hayward OMNI VS, Hayward 425 SF Cartridge, Hayward Omni control
  • Sanitation: AQ100 Salt
  • Cleaner: Polaris 280 + Booster pump
• Decking:
  • ~$16k for 860 salt texture, 30' of steps, 130 sf of turf
• Covered Structure:
  • ~$17k for 320sf structure + gutters + electrical package
  • Does not include walls or doors
• Warranties:
  • 3-4 years on Hayward equipment
  • Lifetime structure
  • Lifetime plaster material, requires monthly water testing
  • 1 year everything else

Design
Attaching some photos on where we're at from a design perspective. Includes mockups I made in a trial version of Pool Studio, and mockups from the builders. I'll spend more time getting this right after we select a builder, but would love feedback from you all as well! I plan on using my fence guy to install fence after pool is built, who is averaging 1/2 the cost of the pool builders.

Questions for this excellent community:

1. How much would you value the warranty differences?
2. Should we pick the best pool builder and worry about the covered structure later?
3. Is there any practical difference between a 6 bar box and 4 bar box? The wiki on this site calls out using more or larger rebar could lead to weaker gunite / air pockets, etc.
4. We are leaning on Builder B currently due to location, relationship, and price. Any red flags with the information above?
5. Any other advice, questions to ask, or differences among these options I should call out?
6. Suggestions on the two design directions considered: L shaped vs T shaped pool. I think we prefer the T shaped, but still uncertain. One non-aesthetic difference is the T shaped pool will involve us putting the volleyball sleeve in the pool within the tanning ledge, wheres the L shaped allows us to put it in the coping. PB says no big deal though.
7. Any other DFW people want to chime in on the need for soil injections? I'm including a photo of our soil report that the builder of our home did. It doesn't provide pool recommendations, but we only have 4 feet of the nasty black texas gumbo. I'll talk to our builder more about this, just since we're getting different opinions on this so far (and I've given them all the report), wanted to at least ask you all.

 

[HermanTX]

Hello Fellow Texan and welcome to TFP.
It appears you have learned a lot already based on your comments regarding various parts of your bid.
Either design looks great - I tend to favor the L shape as it keeps the play side away from the lounging side of the pool.
I have Wet Edge Primera Stone (3rd swim season) and love it. I know others on the forum have had good comments on Durazzo and it appears you have talked to existing users first hand thru your neighbors.
Picking the right pool builder has a lot to do with relationship between you the salesman and the project manager for your pool. If you mesh with both then that is a positive sign you be able to handle any difficulties (and there will definitely be some) during the build. Also have you seen the links
Construction Tips & Best Practices
Construction Best Practices - Further Reading

How to Pick a Pool Builder
How to Pick a Pool Builder - Trouble Free Pool

How to Select Pool Equipment
How to select pool equipment - Further Reading

I have concerns when there is grass in between pavers especially close to the pool. If this is artificial turf it may be OK but I think about maintenance and dirt/grass in the pool.
I have all Pentair equipment and find it very good. Also, Hayward and Jandy are good as well. It is normally best to keep it all within 1 family especially if you plan to automate it all.
Warranties are especially good the first year or 2 but I think all have enough wiggle room after that to find a way out of it. It depends on your PB and subcontractors as to how good of a job they do on the install and what follow up they will provide to you. I had a small issue on my plaster (2 + years after install) and the company came out within a week and did the minor work. No questions, no challenges. So again it falls back on who you ultimately pick and how they want to maintain their reputation. Good Luck.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Conrad,

You cheated!!!! You already knew all the stuff we normally say to change...

I am a highly biased Pentair kind of guy, so I would go with builder #2..

I can't stress enough how you do not want the SVRS version of the IntelliFlo... You also need to make sure the salt cell (IntelliChlor) is at least 2 x the volume of your new pool. And, that the EasyTouch, or IntelliCenter, comes as a salt system package, so the the cell's power supply is inside the main panel and not an external box.

Make sure that the IntelliFlo is installed with pump unions.. They do not come with the pump, and if you don't supply them, or at least tell the PB that you want unions, you won't get them.

Tell your pool builder that you want an equipment pad bigger than normal.. Leave some room to get in and do work.. Don't let them install valves right next to one another..

I would buy a Dolphin S200 at half the price the builder is going to charge you.

Make sure you get an overflow port, and either an autofill, or at least a PCV line run to the pool, so you can add a sprinkler valve to run water to the pool without a hose.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[joepaiii]

I would get more referrals and talk to a couple people. I like that you got good feedback on builder 2. I don't know that I would weight any of my decision on the warranty that a pool builder provides. They are pretty weak when you actually read through what they cover. I would go more on how they treat the build process and how they handle their customers.

Soil injections can be useful since you have so much clay, are they recommending it under the pool and the decking or just the pool? I would go to a third party engineer and get their recommendation on it based on your soil report.


As far as structures are concerned - pick the pool builder on the pool - not the structure. Most of them subcon that out anyway so not sure how that would sway you one way of the other. What is the space behind the covered patio in the plans?

 

[convan23]

Oh my, thanks so much already. Very helpful information, especially with the comments on the Pentair equipment.

My father in law, who used to build pools in the 70s and 80s came over tonight and helped us think through stuff. We decided on Builder B - the Pentair equipment one. Mainly due to local reputation and how well we hit it off with the sales rep.

I have concerns when there is grass in between pavers especially close to the pool. If this is artificial turf it may be OK but I think about maintenance and dirt/grass in the pool.

My FIL was also very against the grass/paver. Wife (and myself, if I am honest) really like the look. We're planning on doing turf, so won't have issues with dirt/grass getting in the pool. I'll probably try to come up with a design that utilizes LESS turf edging and more continuous concrete, but still some turf edging.

Soil injections can be useful since you have so much clay, are they recommending it under the pool and the decking or just the pool?

Just under the pool. Supposedly the soil in our neighborhood (We're in Parker actually! Just south of Allen) isn't as bad as some areas.

What is the space behind the covered patio in the plans?

Our neighbor's yard, about 50 feet away. The way our lot is situated we won't have anyone directly behind us, but we do have houses to the left, right, and will on the two diagonals to our backyard. Our area is kind of "country" with 1 acre+ lots and wrought iron fencing. So everything is pretty much in the open. The covered structure is really there to provide us with convenient storage - I'm going to store lawn equipment in, a riding mower, and pool toys. The current location should block our neighbors to the side when we are in the pool, and our neighbors diagonally when we're in the back patio.

Personally, I like the look of the "T" shaped pool, the symmetry, etc. But I think my wife prefers the L shaped and functionally I think it's a wash. So, jury is still out.

 

[convan23]

Think we've decided on the below layout. Just think that the "T" looks nicer and will be nice to have the tanning ledge right off of the covered structure, especially when the kids are young and can play in the tanning ledge while mom and dad hang out in the structure if we don't all want to get in the pool.

Also, talked to the PB about the pavers/turf look: he said that in his experience these hold up pretty nice. Compared to a continuous deck, we "should" have less cracking. We'll have the same amount of settling, but instead of cracking some of the pavers might lift where others don't...but don't really think we'll notice a ton of difference. He thinks in the long haul the pavers will hold up better. The turf will flatten out but compared to concrete will keep a little less dirt from getting in the pool since it can trap things before they make it to the pool. (Artificial turf). He might be blowing smoke but we like the look and we happen to be right at the order minimum for artificial turf...so decreasing the amount of turf won't save us any costs unless we take out altogether.

Any thoughts on how deep we should make the tanning ledge? Thinking 9". 12" seems a little deep to step into from the coping, 6" doesn't seem deep enough. Hoping 9" might be a good middle ground.

Oh, one last thing. PB pushed back on switching to Intellicenter, saying that it will cost a lot of money over the ScreenLogic/EasyTouch PL4, and we don't have anything that the ScreenLogic won't control (simple pool). Just didn't think it was worth it to pay $$$ more for Intellicenter.

The one good/bad thing about this builder is they have a huge warehouse of PentAir equipment that they stock everything from. So anything that they don't stock, they have to special order from PentAir which they obviously don't like to do. Their equipment was cheaper then other PBs, which is probably why. So I guess that could explain why switching to Intellicenter might be a lot more.

Meeting with the PB on Monday to finalize anything. Any last comments, go!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Conrad,

No reputable pool builder would install an EasyTouch PL4... the "L" stands for lite as in lite salad dressing that no one wants to eat. They have no load center, don't come with an internal SWCG power supply, only have a max of 4 programs or schedules, and limited functions. I would not give a PL4 to my worst enemy..

That said, maybe you misunderstood the model number.. You need to get the actual P/N.

The cost of an EasyTouch with Screenlogic is just about the same as an IntelliCenter.. I suspect that your pool builder has a bunch of unused equipment that he wants to get rid of.. The fact that he has an IntelliFlo with SVRS is a good indication that his equipment is over 3 to 5 years old.. Don't listen to any bull about the SVRS being required or that it is just the same as an IntelliFlo without SVRS.. It is NOT!!!

He is not wrong about the fact that a "real" EasyTouch with ScreenLogic will work just fine for 90% of pool owners, just not the lite version of the EasyTouch..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[convan23]

I'll figure out the exact model. Worse case, assuming it is currently the "lite" PL4 model, what's the next cheapest model to move up to? An EasyTouch 4? Is that what to ask for?

Also, in reality....how expensive is the hardware to swap to a full Intellicenter model after the fact? I can get a discount on the hardware (FIL still has his distributor hookups) and can just install myself/with his help. He's just 30 years out of date on hardware (built pools in the 80s) so he doesn't know whats what now.

 

[convan23]

They have no load center, don't come with an internal SWCG power supply

He did say adding salt cell control was no problem and no upcharge

 

[HermanTX]

Any thoughts on how deep we should make the tanning ledge? Thinking 9". 12" seems a little deep to step into from the coping, 6" doesn't seem deep enough. Hoping 9" might be a good middle ground.

There are several threads on ledge depth. No real standard. just remember that you need to step from the coping down to the floor of the ledge so 9 inches of water depth plus 3-5 inches of air (water level to coping level). I know some have added a small step at 6 inches water depth if they went to either a 9 inch or 12 inch water depth ledge, again no real standard but more of personal preference. You may want to construct this with bricks and get a feel of the step down. Most first steps in pools are at 6 inch water depth meaning a 9-11 inch step from ground (varies depending on how you have your coping on top of your water tile. Also, for reference, a second step is around 10-12 inches in a pool and same for 3rd step.

 

[convan23]

Got it all figured out! Pool builder helped put my mind at ease. With covid they’re installing the largest cartridge filter that pentair sells on every pool they build, and it sounds like they might be using the IC60 as well although I could probably request the 40 if I really wanted it. Waiting on specific model numbers.

Switching to non SVRS pump model

only thing I’m concerned about now is the automation. Upgrading to easy touch 8 with salt power supply is going to run $2650 more then the PL4 with salt. He has to get pricing on the intellicenter. Is this worth it over the PL4?

Seems like I could buy my own intellicenter panel afterwards and install it (I’m pretty confident myself) for far cheaper.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Conrad,

If you install it yourself, you get a 60 day warranty.. Not saying that is bad, as I installed two EasyTouch systems with no problems, but just a heads up.

$2650 more is ridiculous.. It appears to me to be a price designed to force you into the PL4

A PL4 with ScreenLogic costs about $800 bucks..

A real EasyTouch 4 costs $650 and ScreenLogic Costs $420, so $1,070 bucks total..

Assuming he is charging you $1,600 for the PL4, and $2,140 for the EasyTouch and S/L, that is only a difference of $540 bucks.. Something smells like fish to me.. ☹

I suspect that he has a stock of PL4's that he can't get rid of...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[convan23]

$2650 more is ridiculous..

So I'll take that as a "Not worth it"

I have seen other PBs on this form quoting $2k+ for this same upgrade, so while ridiculous, maybe not unheard of.

What about something like this?

Pentair IntelliTouch/EasyTouch to Next Gen Upgrade Kit - i10PS 522048 | PoolSupply4Less

With the Pentair 522048 you can use your smart device to control IntelliConnect via a user-friendly app for ultimate pool management from anywhere in the world or right at home. Free Shipping.

www.poolsupply4less.com

 

[Jimrahbe]

Conrad,

The IntelliConnect cost about $300 bucks... What do you think you will get for that??

If you want to upgrade yourself, then I suggest that you go with a real EasyTouch and no ScreenLogic.. You can add ScreenLogic yourself for $400 bucks. The IntelliCenter is better but not a requirement for 90% of automation users.

In the end it is your pool and you should get what you want, no matter what we say here..

A long time ago, my father taught me a great lesson.. "If you buy a cheap tool you will cry every time you use it.. If you buy the right tool, you only have to cry when you buy it." I have never found a case where that was not true..

In the big picture, the cost of automation is a minor amount when compared to the pool itself.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[convan23]

Right now we have the $2560 in there for the EasyTouch 8 + ScreenLogic, so don't mind paying. We've chosen this builder for a multitude of other reasons, with the $2560 in there for the EasyTouch 8 they're still competitive with other builders. I'm just trying to figure out whether the $2560 is worth the upgrade price vs starting off with a PL4 and upgrading later.

If you buy the right tool, you only have to cry when you buy it.

I'm also one to often buy tools from Harbor Freight on the cheap and replace it with a much more expensive tool when/if I use it enough to break it / exceed its capability

To be honest, right now I have a feeling that he's quoting me Automation + Included Salt Cell SKUs, as well as a separate salt chlorinator, not realizing that the automation system comes bundled with the salt cell. He said it was just the price for Automation + Salt Power Supply, and he needed a separate line item for the actual ICXX.... but his quoted prices would make a lot more sense if that was the case. I have an email out to him and will see.

Thanks a bunch for the help, I am listening, I promise!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Conrad,

Well, I forgot you were going with an EasyTouch 8 with salt cell.. That makes a huge difference when compared with a PL4..

A Pool only EasyTouch 8 with an internal salt power supply and IC40 is $1,730 Plus ScreenLogic $420 = $2,150

Pool builder 2 x = $4,300 - the PL4 at $1600 = An upgrade of about $2,700..

Sorry for the confusion, I was comparing the base EasyTouch with the base PL4..

A PL4 does not come with a salt system.. It does not come with a load center...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[gingrbredman]

From my experience in dealing with PB who were quoting my project, some were very adamant about the ET system with Screen Logic. It is their tried and true system, they know how to install and trouble shoot, and maybe had a few in stock they got on discount. The Intellicenter had its issues in the beginning, and PBs just weren't interested in working out the kinks. Any automation quotes above the ET they were comfortable installing were almost, "Priced so high so the customer won't agree to it" amounts.

If you have the Easy Touch 8 in the plans, you could easily upgrade to the Intellicenter down the road, and for not much more money. But I suspect if you do go with the Easy Touch 8, you probably won't upgrade as the benefits you get really won't be that dramatic and you will be perfectly fine with the ET8. Yes, there are benefits of the Intellicenter over the Easy Touch, but as Jim has mentioned, 90% should be happy with the Easy Touch 8. But, for no reason should you even consider the Lite version, it should almost be a crime to install this. Yes, you could upgrade that later as well, but why even waste any money on that, and then install a system later that the PB could do now, and give you the full warranty on?

 

[convan23]

Finally have a formal "plan" that we're going into permitting with. Would love feedback if there is anything specific, if not, I'll continue to journal the progress along the way. Expecting 4-5 weeks for permitting.

(We did go with Builder "B")

Switched to a gabled roof on the covered structure

Equipment updates
Pump: Intelliflo VS
Filter: Cartridge, 520'
Sanitation: Intellichlor I60 or I40 (TBD)
Automation: Screenlogic 8, TBD to Intellicenter

Plaster
Durazzo

 

[TampaKathy]

From what I've read on the forums, the globrites can only be replaced with globrites when needed so you may want to consider something else that don't have that limitation (microbrites?).

 

[convan23]

Plaster, coping and tile

Not pictured is a blue glass tile that’s the shape of the gray tile, but the colors of the blue tile. We will probably go with that one but waiting on confirmation that it isn’t backordered.

Thoughts? Light gray travertine coping, polar ice Durazzo which is white with blue and black specs.