Missing Stabilizer Second time stabilizer has gone to zero..

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I purchased the tf-100 pro kit before I started the thread in June. I finished the stuff I had and am now using the new reagents. I also have had results confirmed in pool stores because I thought I was going crazy.
 
I have added a 10lb bag of cya on 15oct and just tested today and I'm at 50ppm. According to pool math I should be at 65ppm coming from zero. This makes me question my actual pool size. As 0 to 50ppm would put me at 25000 gal size vice 19044 gal on my drawings.

This would make since as I feel the true clear is just not keeping up. I run on 100% 24/7 and my FC never gets above 3 and I have to add chlorine often. I tried to lower it to 60% because it is now covered and my FC was just at 1 today. I slammed last week and turned it down after completed.

This has been driving me nuts for a while now. Think the two issues could be related?
 
This is a really unusual situation. Normally CYA is a fairly stable molecule and it doesn't degrade fast by photolytic degradation pathways and it doesn't normally undergo electrolytic degradation in the conditions in an SWG cell.

Did you try swapping to another chlorine source and turning off the SWCG cell ? If so did the CYA level stabilise? The reason that I ask is that CYA can undergo electrolytic degradation but typically it happens under very specific conditions, the papers I've read were using a special boron doped diamond electrode for example. There are a few papers on this that are in relation to water treatment techniques to destroy triazine ring based pesticides and CYA shares that core structure of a triazine ring while being safe to handle. So it was used in the method development. The method used was able to destroy 50ppm of CYA by electrochemical degradation in 12 hours on a lab scale and they found that the most efficient supporting electrolyte to do this was 0.05M sodium chloride, aka a 3000ppm salt solution. It's really unlikely, but it's not impossible that your chlorinator is faulty and if so it may be be degrading the CYA and this may be exacerbated as you are running it for long periods.
 
Phookinl said:
This is a really unusual situation. Normally CYA is a fairly stable molecule and it doesn't degrade fast by photolytic degradation pathways and it doesn't normally undergo electrolytic degradation in the conditions in an SWG cell.

Did you try swapping to another chlorine source and turning off the SWCG cell? If so did the CYA level stabilise? The reason that I ask is that CYA can undergo electrolytic degradation but typically it happens under very specific conditions, the papers I've read were using a special boron doped diamond electrode for example. There are a few papers on this that are in relation to water treatment techniques to destroy triazine ring based pesticides and CYA shares that core structure of a triazine ring while being safe to handle. So it was used in the method development. The method used was able to destroy 50ppm of CYA by electrochemical degradation in 12 hours on a lab scale and they found that the most efficient supporting electrolyte to do this was 0.05M sodium chloride, aka a 3000ppm salt solution. It's really unlikely, but it's not impossible that your chlorinator is faulty and if so it may be be degrading the CYA and this may be exacerbated as you are running it for long periods.
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Thanks for the info on that. While I have not tried turning off the SWCG and just doing chlorine I did replace the SWCG itself and CYA dropped to zero with the new cell. I got a new cell because I thought the old one was defective. It seemed like it was not keeping up with chlorine as I always had to add more.

The new one is exactly the same outcome, based on a pool size of 20k the trueclear can only give me 5.8ppm a day which is appears to not be enough to keep up with summer demand and use here in South Florida. Loosing the CYA makes it even harder.

The issue is also that it will be fine for a month or two then next time I test its gone. So when it happens it happens fast.
 
CYA is a very stable molecule. It's one of the degradation products for some pesticides and it is considered a persistent pollutant in environmental applications. So something unusual appears to be happening. The actual SWG cell is basically just the electodes. If there is something really out of whack with the system, I think it's more likely to be in the power supply. I do still think this is incredibly unlikely, but perhaps worth a try just to see if it still happens. The CYA disappearing is inconvenient but for it to happen, repeatedly with different brands and in the absence of dilution in a short period of time, means that something is breaking it down. That could be biological, but as Mknauss pointed out, your free chlorine levels preclude that. It could be a seriously defective SWCG although it's very unlikely. I think it's unlikely that there is a chemical agent powerful enough to break down CYA in the pool as I think you would be seeing all sorts of issues with your testing reagents if nothing else and probably issues with skin irritation degradation of pool equipment and so on. The only other option really is that something in the pool water is acting as a catalyst to allow it to break down fast by either photolytic degradation or in a normally functioning SWCG. That is something that would be almost impossible for a home pool user to work out, but there are scientists beavering away working on systems to break these chemicals down and they probably would be interested in identifying a naturally occurring catalyst for the process as it would greatly reduce costs. All scientific papers nominate a corresponding author, so it shouldn't be too hard to put you in touch with someone with a research interest in this area if you eliminate all the other likely options.
 
Have you tested CYA in any other pool with a known CYA level (confirmed with another kit and another set of eyes) using your kit and eyes?
 
Phookinl said:
CYA is a very stable molecule. It's one of the degradation products for some pesticides and it is considered a persistent pollutant in environmental applications. So something unusual appears to be happening. The actual SWG cell is basically just the electodes. If there is something really out of whack with the system, I think it's more likely to be in the power supply. I do still think this is incredibly unlikely, but perhaps worth a try just to see if it still happens. The CYA disappearing is inconvenient but for it to happen, repeatedly with different brands and in the absence of dilution in a short period of time, means that something is breaking it down. That could be biological, but as Mknauss pointed out, your free chlorine levels preclude that. It could be a seriously defective SWCG although it's very unlikely. I think it's unlikely that there is a chemical agent powerful enough to break down CYA in the pool as I think you would be seeing all sorts of issues with your testing reagents if nothing else and probably issues with skin irritation degradation of pool equipment and so on. The only other option really is that something in the pool water is acting as a catalyst to allow it to break down fast by either photolytic degradation or in a normally functioning SWCG. That is something that would be almost impossible for a home pool user to work out, but there are scientists beavering away working on systems to break these chemicals down and they probably would be interested in identifying a naturally occurring catalyst for the process as it would greatly reduce costs. All scientific papers nominate a corresponding author, so it shouldn't be too hard to put you in touch with someone with a research interest in this area if you eliminate all the other likely options.
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It has been driving me crazy I have never seen the CYA disappear like this before, my pervious pool I never had an issue. I really wanted to go to a circupool SWCG as I put one in on my other pool and it was awesome but they have quadrupled in price and I just could justify that on a new pool.

All of my other chemicals have been stable no issues there other than CH getting high from new plaster but with all the rain we have gotten it has fallen.

I will keep an eye on it and if it happens again I will go to straight chlorine and turn off the SWCG. I am happy to help out any scientist who would be interested in taking a look but they might want more evidence before they dedicate any time to it.

Here is the CYA data from my logs might help some but I have added close to 50lbs from Feb to now, that is insane.
Jan 23 CYA of 40
Feb 4 CYA 50
Feb 13 CYA 40
Feb 20 CYA 40 add 30.8 oz (this was the PP brand)
Feb 28 CYA 50 add 7.7oz
Mar 11 CYA 50
Mar 30 add 52oz to bring up
Apr 4 CYA 60
Apr 13 CYA 40 add 3lbs
May 1 CYA 20 add 6lbs (Clorox brand)
May 24 CYA 60
May 29 CYA 60
Jun 23 CYA 0 add 4lbs (was all I had) confirmed at PP
Jun 24 Start of this thread and ordered Puri Tech CYA
Jun 28 add 4lbs (Puri tech start)
Jul 1 CYA 50 add 3lbs (got TFT Pro kit an new reagents)
Jul 4 CYA 70
Jul 8 CYA 60 add 1lb 9oz
Jul 25 CYA 40 add 5lbs
Aug 5 CYA 40 add 5lbs
Aug 17 CYA 60 add 1.5lbs
Aug 28 CYA 40 add 4lbs
Sep 3 CYA 50
Oct 15 CYA 0 add 10lbs
Oct 26 CYA 50
 
1635468413736.pngSo generally speaking the additions you are making are matching the test kit results but the CYA level is not stable. That tends to suggest that the product is OK and that the reagents you're using are ok. I have seen some issues with dud reagents from one of our local australian test kit manufacturers when they first started out. I think they now repack the Taylors reagents. The CYA reagent is Melamine dissolved in water. Melamine is also a triazine ring based molecule but it has three amine groups pendant off the rings carbon atoms. Melamine degrades to CYA and ammonia, so if the reagents go off, they don't form a cloudy complex and the test doesn't work. I don't know if the Taylors reagents are stabilised to prevent the melamine from degrading but they seem to hold up pretty well. As a general rule it's worth storing the kit in a cool place and keep the reagents in the box where it's nice and dark.

I don't think that the reagent breaking down is your problem here though as the results are fairly consistent with the additions. The test is quite subjective, I would say that if you lined up several people with the same samples you could easily get +/- 10ppm variability in the results and you seem to be getting better accuracy than most. So your test results are a reasonable match with your additions. You appear to be consuming CYA at about 10-15 ppm per week. To get that sort of drop from dilution you would need to be swapping out nearly 5000 gallons of water. I suspect you would notice and as you say it would show very clearly in all your other test results.

How often do you clean your cell ? What do you clean it with ? Most cells these days use titanium plates with a rare earth coating. If you strip off the coating the electrolysis is less efficient and the output will drop but you will also be left with titanium plates. Titanium is funny stuff, it doesn't corrode much because it tends to form a very stable passivated oxide layer on the surface. Titanium dioxide has been used as a catalyst in degrading triazine based pollutants. I really am starting to think that it would be worth running on liquid chlorine for a few weeks to see if the CYA levels stabilise.
 
Phookinl said:
View attachment 380039So generally speaking the additions you are making are matching the test kit results but the CYA level is not stable. That tends to suggest that the product is OK and that the reagents you're using are ok. I have seen some issues with dud reagents from one of our local australian test kit manufacturers when they first started out. I think they now repack the Taylors reagents. The CYA reagent is Melamine dissolved in water. Melamine is also a triazine ring based molecule but it has three amine groups pendant off the rings carbon atoms. Melamine degrades to CYA and ammonia, so if the reagents go off, they don't form a cloudy complex and the test doesn't work. I don't know if the Taylors reagents are stabilised to prevent the melamine from degrading but they seem to hold up pretty well. As a general rule it's worth storing the kit in a cool place and keep the reagents in the box where it's nice and dark.

I don't think that the reagent breaking down is your problem here though as the results are fairly consistent with the additions. The test is quite subjective, I would say that if you lined up several people with the same samples you could easily get +/- 10ppm variability in the results and you seem to be getting better accuracy than most. So your test results are a reasonable match with your additions. You appear to be consuming CYA at about 10-15 ppm per week. To get that sort of drop from dilution you would need to be swapping out nearly 5000 gallons of water. I suspect you would notice and as you say it would show very clearly in all your other test results.

How often do you clean your cell ? What do you clean it with ? Most cells these days use titanium plates with a rare earth coating. If you strip off the coating the electrolysis is less efficient and the output will drop but you will also be left with titanium plates. Titanium is funny stuff, it doesn't corrode much because it tends to form a very stable passivated oxide layer on the surface. Titanium dioxide has been used as a catalyst in degrading triazine based pollutants. I really am starting to think that it would be worth running on liquid chlorine for a few weeks to see if the CYA levels stabilise.
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Thanks that is grate info I appreciate the advanced answers to this unique problem. I keep all my testing kits in the house so they are stored in a cool dry place. I also use the TFT kits and I believe they use taylor reagents. I agree that's not the issue. You are correct when I lost cya nothing else dropped so I was able to rule out loss by water overflow.

The pool was brand new in Jan, I cleaned my old cell twice and installed a new cell Sep first and the issue still occurred. I cleaned by placing in a bucket with acid and water for 10min. I'm starting to think that there is really something wrong with the power unit now as even when I check directly from the returns I am only getting a CL of 1ppm with the new cell. At that rate at 50gpm for 24hrs that would only give me an output of 3.6ppm when it should be putting out 5.8.

I need to refill my chlorine and I will turn off the SWCG. I'm going to retest this weekend so hopefully I can do both to monitor the results. Appreciate the help.
 
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grandmasterlarry said:
Thanks that is grate info I appreciate the advanced answers to this unique problem. I keep all my testing kits in the house so they are stored in a cool dry place. I also use the TFT kits and I believe they use taylor reagents. I agree that's not the issue. You are correct when I lost cya nothing else dropped so I was able to rule out loss by water overflow.

The pool was brand new in Jan, I cleaned my old cell twice and installed a new cell Sep first and the issue still occurred. I cleaned by placing in a bucket with acid and water for 10min. I'm starting to think that there is really something wrong with the power unit now as even when I check directly from the returns I am only getting a CL of 1ppm with the new cell. At that rate at 50gpm for 24hrs that would only give me an output of 3.6ppm when it should be putting out 5.8.

I need to refill my chlorine and I will turn off the SWCG. I'm going to retest this weekend so hopefully I can do both to monitor the results. Appreciate the help.
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Florida heat, sunlight, and rain are a different animal for CYA than other parts of the country. I have learned to test it frequently in the summer, and have it on hand so I am ready to address its loss. I don't know why it goes. Could be the water temp, the uv, the rain... But it does go. Test more often, add as needed.
Also, if the SWG "falls behind," it won't catch up. When that happens I add LC to get it just above the high end of the target. Then I test frequently and adjust SWG runtime and percentage as necessary to maintain LC levels.
 
poolnoobgrandma said:
Florida heat, sunlight, and rain are a different animal for CYA than other parts of the country. I have learned to test it frequently in the summer, and have it on hand so I am ready to address its loss. I don't know why it goes. Could be the water temp, the uv, the rain... But it does go. Test more often, add as needed.
Also, if the SWG "falls behind," it won't catch up. When that happens I add LC to get it just above the high end of the target. Then I test frequently and adjust SWG runtime and percentage as necessary to maintain LC levels.
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That is exactly what I do, I keep 7.5gal of liquid chlorine at all times.
 
This morning I turned off the SWCG and went and got chlorine. When I checked my FC this morning it was at 1ppm cell running 24hr at 100%. After getting chlorine I added a little over a gallon and I'm now at FC of 7 with 0 CC. There is definitely something wrong with thing as I have thought for awhile now and it has to be the power controller as the cell is new.

I checked all my stats and guess what, the CYA was at 30. It dropped 20ppm in 4 days! Everything else remained the same as when I tested Oct 26. I'm going to need to get more reagents for CYA. But I'll be testing every couple of days to monitor and I'll keep the SWCG off. I'm going to keep the CYA at 30 to stay consistent and the pool is covered so don't need to worry about the sun.
 
Did an overnight chlorine loss test to make sure everything was OK and it went from 4.5 at 8pm last night to 3.5 at 8am this morning. With only a loss of 1ppm everything is good there.
 
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That should be fine for now. Once it warms up (next week for Y’all ?? :ROFLMAO:). You’ll need 70 and probably even 80. It won’t hurt to add sooner than you need it. It will still help retain your FC and require even less production now. Which will help save a few SWG hours for the long run. It will only be a few hours, but still. Longer life is longer life and every bit helps, right ?
 
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Checked again this morning and the CYA dropped a little, the black dot was just barely visible at 30, I would put it between 30 and 20 but might be closer to 30. I went ahead and added the other 10lb bag I had which should bring me to a CYA of 70. It rained all day Friday. All other stats remain unchanged.
 
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Don’t worry about the in between #s. You think you can see them but the scale doesn’t work that way to see, say a 35. So only fill to the 10s and it’s a lot easier to tell when you would have rounded that 35 (?) up anyway. :)
 
Did my checks again this weekend and CYA hit 70 so everything is still good. I will continue to monitor CYA but it appears for now that the SWCG is indeed causing the extreme drops in CYA I have been experiencing here but I think it still requires longer evaluation to confirm. I have reached out to Jandy for support as I believe the power unit is faulty and is what it making my cell eat the CYA.
 
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grandmasterlarry said:
Did my checks again this weekend and CYA hit 70 so everything is still good. I will continue to monitor CYA but it appears for now that the SWCG is indeed causing the extreme drops in CYA I have been experiencing here but I think it still requires longer evaluation to confirm. I have reached out to Jandy for support as I believe the power unit is faulty and is what it making my cell eat the CYA.
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I suspect it's either a faulty unit or there may be some sort of catalytic effect from something in the pool water. What that would be I have no idea, I think the power unit is more likely.
 

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