Metal problems and Sulphur water source😞

[Patti]

Hi all. The hottest week of the summer is descending upon us today (40+++ Celsius in Ontario ) and I really frustrated with this entire pool thing.
I just don’t have money to buy any more chemicals or products or this or that.
There are no pool chemicals supply stores nearby per se- just Walmart, Canadian Tire, Home Hardware. The closest ones are about an hour to hour 1/2 away.
So here’s what I’ve done so far:
•thought the stains were from iron (fit description)
•used 1.5 lbs Ascorbic acid, then did another .5 lb the next day. Stains were lightening - I was encouraged…a few more days & no change.
•shocked it (because I had the chlorine at zero for the Ascorbic Acid) & thought I better add some algaecide (something I have NEVER done except when opening/closing
•kept reading…thought algae was always green …learned it can be black.
-poured the highest recommended amount of algaecide. Stains lightened a bit more but weren’t gone by any means.
so repeated the algaecide again
•been running the pump & filter a couple of days. The water was VERY Cloudy yesterday- not ‘as’ bad today but nothing near normal.
•lots of white foam/bubbles (less today than yesterday) I’m assuming phospates joining onto calcium as I have very hard water
•I’ve backwashed it twice yesterday and twice today.
SO: the water is still cloudy, has foam, stains are still there (and it appears they have discoloured my brand new (and custom order) liner as well.
Ran out of stuff for my Taylor kit
so here are the results from the strip test.
Free Chlorine- 0
Total Chlorine 0-0.5
Alkaline
pH
Total Hardness 800+
CYA. 30-50 range

 

[Texas Splash]

Patti, I'm afraid you are in a pickle. With no Taylor reagents, the test strips are of no help. The description of what was done earlier seems like pool management by hand grenades I'm afraid. Too many assumptions and stuff being dumped into the water. So here's what I would recommend:
- Nothing goes in the water except liquid chlorine (or regular bleach) for the FC and muriatic acid when the pH gets too high.
- Algaecides do not kill or remove live algae. Depending on the brand of algaecide you used, it may have added copper to your list of problems. Check ingredients to see.
- We kill algae with the SLAM Process.

You might have what, about one month left at best? I'd just try to keep the FC maintained as best as you can until you can get more reagents. One you get refills, do a SLAM before closing, otherwise be prepared to do the SLAM Process when you open next year. Next season, let's discuss metals versus algae early before swim season begins so we can try to help you take care of either.

 

[Patti]

Hi all. The hottest week of the summer is descending upon us today (40+++ Celsius in Ontario ) and I really frustrated with this entire pool thing.
I just don’t have money to buy any more chemicals or products or this or that.
There are no pool chemicals supply stores nearby per se- just Walmart, Canadian Tire, Home Hardware. The closest ones are about an hour to hour 1/2 away.
So here’s what I’ve done so far:
•thought the stains were from iron (fit description)
•used 1.5 lbs Ascorbic acid, then did another .5 lb the next day. Stains were lightening - I was encouraged…a few more days & no change.
•shocked it (because I had the chlorine at zero for the Ascorbic Acid) & thought I better add some algaecide (something I have NEVER done except when opening/closing
•kept reading…thought algae was always green …learned it can be black.
-poured the highest recommended amount of algaecide. Stains lightened a bit more but weren’t gone by any means.
so repeated the algaecide again
•been running the pump & filter a couple of days. The water was VERY Cloudy yesterday- not ‘as’ bad today but nothing near normal.
•lots of white foam/bubbles (less today than yesterday) I’m assuming phospates joining onto calcium as I have very hard water
•I’ve backwashed it twice yesterday and twice today.
SO: the water is still cloudy, has foam, stains are still there (and it appears they have discoloured my brand new (and custom order) liner as well.
Ran out of stuff for my Taylor kit
so here are the results from the strip test.
Free Chlorine- 0
Total Chlorine 0-0.5
Alkaline 180
pH
Total Hardness 800+
CYA. 30-50 range

GRRRRR…posted before I was done…I’ll attach pictures.
Can SOMEONE PLEASEEEE tell me what to do. All I want to do is swim.

Patti, I'm afraid you are in a pickle. With no Taylor reagents, the test strips are of no help. The description of what was done earlier seems like pool management by hand grenades I'm afraid. Too many assumptions and stuff being dumped into the water. So here's what I would recommend:
- Nothing goes in the water except liquid chlorine (or regular bleach) for the FC and muriatic acid when the pH gets too high.
- Algaecides do not kill or remove live algae. Depending on the brand of algaecide you used, it may have added copper to your list of problems. Check ingredients to see.
- We kill algae with the SLAM Process.

You might have what, about one month left at best? I'd just try to keep the FC maintained as best as you can until you can get more reagents. One you get refills, do a SLAM before closing, otherwise be prepared to do the SLAM Process when you open next year. Next season, let's discuss metals versus algae early before swim season begins so we can try to help you take care of either.

hi! oh lol- no - I bought I independent test strips! They weren’t part of the Taylor kitSorry- I should have clarified that!
Knowing that…what do you think of my results now? I just shocked it again. I have an automatic Chlorine puck thing (Lol) I keep it at 3 and never have any problems. Stuff just started going haywire when I started trying to get rid of the stains!
All my levels are usually good - except hardness is always high and I couldn’t get consistent cya results. Can you see the foam…(and the stains) in the pics. I didn’t even look at them before I sent them because I was so hot & sweaty & grumpy. ) I’ve been trying to get this looked after for prob over a month now (4 trips out of town to a pool store that was closed every time I showed up despite hours listed online), trying to get Metal Magic in. Canada, waiting for the company to return numerous phone calls- not impressed, then thinking it was iron stains only to have black spots remaining after the Ascorbic Acid & finding out there’s black spot algaejust…everything.
What are your thoughts? Is this foam from too much algaecide? I can actually smell it. Help!!! I live in my pool!!! It the only way I can take humid Ontario summers!!!

 

[Texas Splash]

Foaming is probably from the algaecides. It should go away on its own. Remember that those inline chlorinators (for tabs) not only add chlorine, but also increase your CYA (stabilizer). The higher the CYA, the higher your FC needs to go per the FC/CYA Levels. That's why we recommend using liquid chlorine or regular bleach. I'm not seeing any other test results you mentioned, but just remember test strips of any kind simply are not reliable. Try to keep the FC elevated to at least 5 for now until you can get a good drop test kit or until you close. It may take consistent use of chlorine since the AA may have still be effecting your overall progress.

 

[Patti]

Foaming is probably from the algaecides. It should go away on its own. Remember that those inline chlorinators (for tabs) not only add chlorine, but also increase your CYA (stabilizer). The higher the CYA, the higher your FC needs to go per the FC/CYA Levels. That's why we recommend using liquid chlorine or regular bleach. I'm not seeing any other test results you mentioned, but just remember test strips of any kind simply are not reliable. Try to keep the FC elevated to at least 5 for now until you can get a good drop test kit or until you close. It may take consistent use of chlorine since the AA may have still be effecting your overall progress.

Okay! Thanks. When is it safe to swim in the pool?

 

[Patti]

Foaming is probably from the algaecides. It should go away on its own. Remember that those inline chlorinators (for tabs) not only add chlorine, but also increase your CYA (stabilizer). The higher the CYA, the higher your FC needs to go per the FC/CYA Levels. That's why we recommend using liquid chlorine or regular bleach. I'm not seeing any other test results you mentioned, but just remember test strips of any kind simply are not reliable. Try to keep the FC elevated to at least 5 for now until you can get a good drop test kit or until you close. It may take consistent use of chlorine since the AA may have still be effecting your overall progress.

Free chlorine 0
Total Clorine 0- 0.5
Alkalinity
pH 7.2
Hardness 800+

 

[Patti]

Free chlorine 0
Total Clorine 0- 0.5
Alkalinity 180
pH 7.2
Hardness 800+
CYA 30-50

 

[Patti]

Foaming is probably from the algaecides. It should go away on its own. Remember that those inline chlorinators (for tabs) not only add chlorine, but also increase your CYA (stabilizer). The higher the CYA, the higher your FC needs to go per the FC/CYA Levels. That's why we recommend using liquid chlorine or regular bleach. I'm not seeing any other test results you mentioned, but just remember test strips of any kind simply are not reliable. Try to keep the FC elevated to at least 5 for now until you can get a good drop test kit or until you close. It may take consistent use of chlorine since the AA may have still be effecting your overall progress.

Oh…and I meant to ask you… what do you think about the remaining stains? How should I treat them? I’m not sure if they will get worse again or not (because I don’t actually think it is metal staining- I think it is black spot algae. I guess I’ll have to wait and see.
OR, while the chlorine is low, should I hit it with Ascorbic Acid one more time?
OR
should I just focus on the FC with liquid chlorine to match the cya like you suggested and the rest will (hopefully) fall into place. What about the hardness though? It is right off the charts.
I saw a filter called Metal Trap. It was a dual one (1 micron and 5 micron that you can hook right onto the hose. it was pricey (like $250-300 U.S. My plumber said he can get the same filters for about $15!!!
Will those filters work just as well as the Metal Trap one (is the Metal Trap just an overpriced marketing thinking?)
Finally…( I’m going to post this on the general board too.) Do you know anything about SULPHUR? I live beside a Conservation area that is called Sulphur Springs. I have a grandfathered clause that my water is supplied by them. It used to come from a fresh spring on their property and was the most fantastic water ever. Then..following a tsunami somewhere in the world, there must have been some kind of ground shift because all the streams and ponds in our area became clay filled and you couldn’t see into them for weeks. After that, the spring had bacteria show up, so the Conservation Area put a dug well (I think it was dug and not drilled), and the water is HORRIBLE. It tested at 98g!!! (Another guy you were talking to had 8g hardness…so I had to chuckle… if he thought THAT was hard…) Now… despite the SULPHUR SPRINGS being next door, there is rarely ANY smell, and absolutely NO SMELL in my water. Btw it is UV treated and tested by the park daily. So…if there are Sulphur molecules present, that ‘could’ be causing the staining in my pool…but what does the staining look like???
Is it possible that the Ascorbic acid doesn’t work as effectively on it as it does on iron?
Any idea what I should be using to treat for Sulphur- something different from the things I’m already doing? I tested the
Water before I started any of this with a iron test strip snd nothing showed up…but they LOOKED like all the iron stains I’ve seen so that’s why I treated it as such. The stains didn’t LOOK copper stains… but if they were copper would the Ascorbic acid lightened them AT ALL? (Because they did lighten them somewhat.)
Should I keep backwashing my pool, rinsing the sand filter, a c adding new water to get rid of the foam? I did put a sequestrant in by the way- the day after the Ascorbic acid (at least I think it was sequestrant POOL CHEM Stain and Scale Prevention.
Should I put fibre fill in the skimmer? Will that help??
uggghhh so much to figure out!!! Thank you for your help!!! Patti

 

[ChiknNutz]

You have zero chlorine? Must have some, ideally 4-8 ppm based on your CYA level as noted here:


Your pH is too low, should be 7.6-7.8. To raise PH use borax or soda ash (aka sodium carbonate).
Your Total Alkalinity is WAY too high, should be 60-80. Refer to this thread on how to lower it. Lower Total Alkalinity - Trouble Free Pool

Refer to What Are My Ideal Pool Levels? - Trouble Free Pool

 

[Patti]

Hi! I’m trying to figure out what is causing the stains in my pool. i’ve treated with ascorbic acid and the stains lighten considerably but are still there. I then realized I might be dealing with black spot algae so I’ve treated for that. But the stains are still there. I live beside a conservation area called Sulphur Springs. My water comes from the park and is UV treated and tested every day. It used to come from a spring on the property but then they dug a well and ever since then my water has been horrible. Hardness test showed 800+ on the strip, snd my plumber said something about 98g hardness. I have a water softener in the house but not in the shop where it was filled from. The Springs next door rarely smell, abd my water has absolutely no smell. But… I’m wondering if it could still contain Sulphur molecules that could be the cause of the stain? Does anyone know what Sulphur stains look like? If it is Sulphur, should the Ascorbic acid have cleared it up, or do I need to use something else on it? Thanks for any input. Patti

 

[Texas Splash]

Patti, for now, I would just get through this next month or so by using liquid chlorine to maintain a reasonable amount of chlorine (about 5 ppm). That will not remove algae, and may not even be your ideal sanitation level compared to your CYA, but without a good test kit to validate all of those numbers that's about all you can do for now. Just before closing, when the water temps fall below 60 degrees, you can consider doing an AA treatment for iron if you wish. Remember that even if you do an AA to remove iron from surfaces, the iron is still in the water. So ideally you'll want to exchange water. Winter might help you with that.

As for the Sulphur, that's a bit over my head so I will tag someone like @JoyfulNoise who might be able to give you some insight on that issue.

 

[cj133]

If it was me, I'd ignore the pH and TA for right now and get your FC up a healthy amount, between 8 and 12 PPM.
I'd hold it there for a few days and watch things. With a TA that high I'd expect the pH to creep up over time.

You really need a decent test kit, for all we know the pH is actually higher and the TA is lower etc.

Can you buy a few gallons of unscented bleach for now at a Walmart or other store?

 

[Texas Splash]

Patti, since I already tagged a chemist expert above, I decided to combine your two threads so that we keep everything together. But I will modify the thread title just a bit.

 

[Jsch96]

Edit: I see the experts have chimed in again since writing this novel of a reply. Follow their advice to a T, you’re in good hands here as I’ve always found out!

Hey Patti, I’m new to the pool game or rather spending this season refreshing my memory. The first step is getting free chlorine in your pool, this is the most important! It’s not safe to swim in by any means with no free chlorine. If there’s any hope to swim this season, do the following.

According to your 30-50 CYA range (we will go by 50) you are going to want to add 76oz of 6% bleach. Just your regular run of the mill non-concentrated bleach. You need to get chlorine in your pool stat! I would add the chlorine tonight, wait an hour and then test with your strip.

Tomorrow morning recheck your chlorine level and compare to the test the night prior. Come back with these numbers and then the experts can work on the rest.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

One doesn't typically find elemental sulfur in water. Sulfur almost always comes in the form of dissolved hydrogen sulfide gas which gives water a rotten-egg smell. H2S is processed by using UV light and peroxide based chemicals to oxidize it into sulfates. Sulfates in contact with high hardness water (calcium) will create calcium sulfate scale which looks powdery white, not black. If ascorbic acid is lightening the stains, then they are likely iron-based.

At this point, you need to forget about the stains as they are aesthetic and not a hazard. You need to SLAM your pool to get rid of all the algaecide that was added and causing your foaming issues. As @Texas Splash said, you're in a pickle and you need those testing reagents. So you need to focus on getting those whatever way you can and then get a SLAM going to correct your water issues. Everything else should be put on the back burner until you complete a SLAM.

 

[Patti]

You have zero chlorine? Must have some, ideally 4-8 ppm based on your CYA level as noted here:

View attachment 362941
Your pH is too low, should be 7.6-7.8. To raise PH use borax or soda ash (aka sodium carbonate).
Your Total Alkalinity is WAY too high, should be 60-80. Refer to this thread on how to lower it. Lower Total Alkalinity - Trouble Free Pool

Refer to What Are My Ideal Pool Levels? - Trouble Free Pool

I lowered the chlorine to add the Ascorbic acid. Then shocked it. After a few days the stains still weren’t gone so I treated it with algaecide (since I had pretty much ruled out iron & copper). The algaecide lightened the stains but didn’t get rid of them completely. So I repeated the algaecide. Now for 3-4 days it’s been foaming. Calcium attaching to ???
phosphates from the algaecide?
I’ve backwashed it 3 times, rinsed the sand filter, and added some new water.
The stains haven’t gotten worse, but they still aren’t going away so that’s why I’m questioning if it could be Sulphur.
I understood that for super hard water like mine, and because of the staining it was better to keep it at the lower end of the pH scale.

If it was me, I'd ignore the pH and TA for right now and get your FC up a healthy amount, between 8 and 12 PPM.
I'd hold it there for a few days and watch things. With a TA that high I'd expect the pH to creep up over time.

You really need a decent test kit, for all we know the pH is actually higher and the TA is lower etc.

Can you buy a few gallons of unscented bleach for now at a Walmart or other store?

Yup- I shocked it again yesterday in the hope that it will clear the cloudiness and get rid of the foam/bubbles. I’ll get some bleach or liquid chlorine somewhere. Just going out to retest the pool. I do have the Taylor kit (the one that everyone uses!) but I have run out of some of the reagents and I can’t find where to buy it in Ontario. Any retailers you of?? Thanks!

 

[Patti]

One doesn't typically find elemental sulfur in water. Sulfur almost always comes in the form of dissolved hydrogen sulfide gas which gives water a rotten-egg smell. H2S is processed by using UV light and peroxide based chemicals to oxidize it into sulfates. Sulfates in contact with high hardness water (calcium) will create calcium sulfate scale which looks powdery white, not black. If ascorbic acid is lightening the stains, then they are likely iron-based.

At this point, you need to forget about the stains as they are aesthetic and not a hazard. You need to SLAM your pool to get rid of all the algaecide that was added and causing your foaming issues. As @Texas Splash said, you're in a pickle and you need those testing reagents. So you need to focus on getting those whatever way you can and then get a SLAM going to correct your water issues. Everything else should be put on the back burner until you complete a SLAM.

Okay! I’ll post on the site asking if anyone knows where I can get the reagents in Ontario. Someone mentioned a place and I thought I had saved it, but can’t find it anywhere. I live in the boonies in Midwestern Ontario so I doubt if there are any Taylor distributors near here. thanks!

 

[Patti]

Okay! I’ll post on the site asking if anyone knows where I can get the reagents in Ontario. Someone mentioned a place and I thought I had saved it, but can’t find it anywhere. I live in the boonies in Midwestern Ontario so I doubt if there are any Taylor distributors near here. thanks!

Oh btw @JoyfulNoise … when I have my solar cover on (which I haven’t yet this year) I always get pool water on top of it, and there is ALWAYS white powder on top of it. I’ve always thought it was just the calcium coming out of the water, but could it be related to the Sulphur?

 

[cj133]

Sulphur is typically yellow.

 

[Patti]

Patti, since I already tagged a chemist expert above, I decided to combine your two threads so that we keep everything together. But I will modify the thread title just a bit.

okay! Thanks! I’m posting responses to people but I’m not seeing them. ??? And I don’t get email notifications of new posts even though I’ve reset the settings 3 times! Any ideas?