Mechanical equipment if you could do it again

[KermitThor]

Hi,

I am going to get started on a DIY inground vinyl kit soon and wanted to get input on what today's best pump/filter/SGC/controller setup looks like. I would like to have some automation, I would like to be able to control lights and bubbler if possible (PAL for both). I don't need the best out there (or maybe I do?), I am in a 40k L and wanted to see kind of what brands are best right now (Hayward vs Pentair etc.) and how to get the most out of these. If you could start fresh today with the market of equipment, what would you want and/or buy?

Thanks!

 

[HermanTX]

Welcome to TFP and your first post.
If you are considering a SWCG and you have a 40k gal (you note it as 40k L so confirm volume of your pool) pool then you need to base some decision around which SWCG you want to use. Pentair makes a SWCG for 60k gal pool or you can consider dual SWCGs.
Jandy and Hayward both make 40k gal SWCGs.

If you want to remotely control your SWCG then that needs to be with the same mfg. of the Automation system. Also several new pumps on the market from Pentair that may (or may not) work with other mfg. automation systems so may need to also align pump, SWCG and automation all from one mfg.

 

[KermitThor]

Welcome to TFP and your first post.
If you are considering a SWCG and you have a 40k gal (you note it as 40k L so confirm volume of your pool) pool then you need to base some decision around which SWCG you want to use. Pentair makes a SWCG for 60k gal pool or you can consider dual SWCGs.
Jandy and Hayward both make 40k gal SWCGs.

If you want to remotely control your SWCG then that needs to be with the same mfg. of the Automation system. Also several new pumps on the market from Pentair that may (or may not) work with other mfg. automation systems so may need to also align pump, SWCG and automation all from one mfg.

Thanks for the reply. To clarify, it will be a 40,000 gallon L shape (8 feet at deepest). I am looking at the Hayward 40k SWCG. If I stay Hayward, which is fine by me, I have selected the Tristar VS950 (2.7 THP) pump and the Swimclear C4030 cartidge filter. The 40kSWCG is currently paired with an Aquaplus, this is where I am much less clear on the best bang for buck. I don't need full automation, I just want to be able to control lighting, turn on/off bubblers, and control a future heater.

 

[HermanTX]

Thanks for the reply. To clarify, it will be a 40,000 gallon L shape (8 feet at deepest). I am looking at the Hayward 40k SWCG. If I stay Hayward, which is fine by me, I have selected the Tristar VS950 (2.7 THP) pump and the Swimclear C4030 cartidge filter. The 40kSWCG is currently paired with an Aquaplus, this is where I am much less clear on the best bang for buck. I don't need full automation, I just want to be able to control lighting, turn on/off bubblers, and control a future heater.

It is recommended to have a SWCG that is rated for 2x the volume of the pool. With 40k gals I would definitely recommend going with a 60k gal rated SWCG. For example, - With a 40k gal rated SWCG (that outputs 1.47lbs of CL in 24 hrs,) and you want 4ppm of FC generated per day, you would need to run your pump for 24 hrs and your SWCG set at 91%. That is basically wide open during the summer months. It can be done, just that you have little flexibility in your settings. As comparison, a SWCG rated at 2 lbs of CL per 24 hrs would generate 4ppm of FC in 24 hrs at 67% SWCG setting.

Automation is really convenience, to set the schedule for your pump, to monitor and change output of the SWCG, to change from Pool mode to Spa mode, control the heater, lights, water features. With full automation you can access it via your PC or your phone

Without automation, you can do it all manually at the equipment pad. Another option is to have it direct wired to a control panel mounted to the wall in your home, to turn or off functions and there is some capability to set pump schedules, etc.

 

[guinness]

The 40kSWCG is currently paired with an Aquaplus, this is where I am much less clear on the best bang for buck. I don't need full automation, I just want to be able to control lighting, turn on/off bubblers, and control a future heater.

The AquaPlus is a ProLogic P-4 system with an included cell. That means it has relays, valve controllers and a heater switch.

Hayward ProLogic - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[KermitThor]

It is recommended to have a SWCG that is rated for 2x the volume of the pool. With 40k gals I would definitely recommend going with a 60k gal rated SWCG. For example, - With a 40k gal rated SWCG (that outputs 1.47lbs of CL in 24 hrs,) and you want 4ppm of FC generated per day, you would need to run your pump for 24 hrs and your SWCG set at 91%. That is basically wide open during the summer months. It can be done, just that you have little flexibility in your settings. As comparison, a SWCG rated at 2 lbs of CL per 24 hrs would generate 4ppm of FC in 24 hrs at 67% SWCG setting.

Automation is really convenience, to set the schedule for your pump, to monitor and change output of the SWCG, to change from Pool mode to Spa mode, control the heater, lights, water features. With full automation you can access it via your PC or your phone

Without automation, you can do it all manually at the equipment pad. Another option is to have it direct wired to a control panel mounted to the wall in your home, to turn or off functions and there is some capability to set pump schedules, etc.

I will check with the pool kit guys on the SWCG sizing. With a VS pump I could see them thinking it should run all day, but like you mentioned, it will remove flexibility (such as using bubblers). Thanks for the info.

For automation, in this day and age I would expect fundamental automation at the panel. Getting that controllability to your phone (not so interested in PC) is the goal for me. Just simply checking status, turning/changing lights, engaging "spa mode" which for me would be a pump ramp and valve position change for bubblers.

 

[Newdude]

will check with the pool kit guys on the SWCG sizing. With a VS pump I could see them thinking it should run all day,

It can run all day at little electrical cost (low RPMs, 120W). But the cell has a finite lifespan of about 10k hours in perfect conditions. The quicker you use those hours of producing, the sooner you deplete the cell. Going to 60K gets you 50% more lifespan for 20% more cost. The math is substantially in your favor to upsize.

 

[KermitThor]

The AquaPlus is a ProLogic P-4 system with an included cell. That means it has relays, valve controllers and a heater switch.

Hayward ProLogic - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Yes, that is my understanding. I think the panel is capable of the pool automation I am looking for but I am less clear on the easiest path to control via a phone (or reluctantly a PC). My reading says it should would with the Aquaconnect (The Hayward P-4 should) so I am trying to figure out why Hayward offers both Prologic and Omnilogic other than just sheer amount of capacity control?

 

[ajw22]

Consider the new more modern AquaRite S3 Omni...

AquaRite® S3 Salt Chlorination System | Hayward Residential and Commercial Pool Products

AquaRite S3 offers all the benefits of salt chlorination with built-in pool automation. Allowing you to easily manage the chlorine levels, a pump and a heater right from the display screen.

www.hayward-pool.com

 

[KermitThor]

It can run all day at little electrical cost (low RPMs, 120W). But the cell has a finite lifespan of about 10k hours in perfect conditions. The quicker you use those hours of producing, the sooner you deplete the cell. Going to 60K gets you 50% more lifespan for 20% more cost. The math is substantially in your favor to upsize.

That makes sense as well. I am looking around now for Hayward 60k's, not sure they offer it per the comments above.

 

[ajw22]

I am looking around now for Hayward 60k's, not sure they offer it per the comments above.

Hayward residential cells max out at 40K.

Hayward has chosen to manufacture large SWG cells for commercial pools. The Saline C 6.0 produces 6 lbs/day and the Saline C 11.0 produces 11 lbs/day.

 

[KermitThor]

Consider the new more modern AquaRite S3 Omni...

AquaRite® S3 Salt Chlorination System | Hayward Residential and Commercial Pool Products

AquaRite S3 offers all the benefits of salt chlorination with built-in pool automation. Allowing you to easily manage the chlorine levels, a pump and a heater right from the display screen.

www.hayward-pool.com

I have chatted with kit provider (Royal) and they said the cost didn't add much functionality in what I was describing, does that sound accurate to you? I also seem to be bumping up against Haywards maximum capacity for salt cells. I admittedly haven't looked this up, as it just came to mind, but I would suspect the cells could be run in parallel?

 

[KermitThor]

Hayward residential cells max out at 40K.

Hayward has chosen to manufacture large SWG cells for commercial pools. The Saline C 6.0 produces 6 lbs/day and the Saline C 11.0 produces 11 lbs/day.

7k for a cell is going to be push things on my end haha. Can the smaller cells not be run in parallel? If not, I guess looking to Pentair's 60K would be the logical step?

 

[ajw22]

I have chatted with kit provider (Royal) and they said the cost didn't add much functionality in what I was describing, does that sound accurate to you?

There is more then functionality to choose a control system that will be in your pool for the next 20 years. There is how robust the equipment is and if the equipment will be upgraded by Hayward during its lifetime.

The S3 has networking builtin. You don't need the complexity of another box - Aquaconnect. I believe the S3 will get OTA updates from Hayward. Dig into the differences and you will find many improvements internally.

I also seem to be bumping up against Haywards maximum capacity for salt cells. I admittedly haven't looked this up, as it just came to mind, but I would suspect the cells could be run in parallel?

You can run two cells in parallel but the controller can only control one of them. So you run one cell set at 100% and then use the controller to set the output for the other cell. You need a control box for each cell.

 

[Saturn94]

Can the smaller cells not be run in parallel

I pretty sure this can be done but may require 2 SWCG controllers.

 

[KermitThor]

There is more then functionality to choose a control system that will be in your pool for the next 20 years. There is how robust the equipment is and if the equipment will be upgraded by Hayward during its lifetime.

The S3 has networking builtin. You don't need the complexity of another box - Aquaconnect. I believe the S3 will get OTA updates from Hayward. Dig into the differences and you will find many improvements internally.



You can run two cells in parallel but the controller can only control one of them. So you run one cell set at 100% and then use the controller to set the output for the other cell. You need a control box for each cell.

As a vendor agnostic type of person it would seem like the easiest option would be to move over to Pentair's 60k system? I know Hayward is generally well liked and I feel like I see them mentioned the most in my reading. If I parallel them am I going to lose automation of that uncontrolled cell?

You're signature shows a similar sized pool, any particular reason you went Pentair?

To your response on the S3 Omni, that looks like a good option. One issue Hayward seems to have it way too many options! So the S3 Omni is an Omnilogic controller (w/ or w/o salt cell and looks like requires an optional wifi antenna), then you have all that royal offers:



I know they are just one shop but they don't even offer the S3. At the end of the day, I'm sure these offer a fairly comparable baseline functionality. It seems like 4 relays, a heater and a pump are all a minimum and Hayward can feed to back to an app with all of them (correct me if that isn't right). The choice for me comes down to salt cell (size and configuration for pool my size), future proof, cost?

 

[KermitThor]

I pretty sure this can be done but may require 2 SWCG controllers.

Yea, if there's a will there's a way right? I am still selecting equipment so it would seem like moving to the 60k Pentair would be the smarter move?

 

[Newdude]

The cost to buy 2 complete systems wouldn't be worth it to me to retain the same brand functionality in the automation.

Sure it's nice to whip out your phone and change settings, but I also bet that leads to way to much micromanaging because it's so easy.

I read somewhere this summer was 8 degrees above average by me. Upon completion in June, I set the SWG to 60% and it stayed there until September when I got 2 weeks at 40% and then had to adjust it for the 2nd time to 20%. Every year is different, but the most I've ever adjusted it was 5 times a season. You'll be out at the pad anyway once a week or more, so losing the compatibility wouldn't bother me at all to retain the upsizing savings of a 60k unit.

 

[KermitThor]

The cost to buy 2 complete systems wouldn't be worth it to me to retain the same brand functionality in the automation.

Sure it's nice to whip out your phone and change settings, but I also bet that leads to way to much micromanaging because it's so easy.

I read somewhere this summer was 8 degrees above average by me. Upon completion in June, I set the SWG to 60% and it stayed there until September when I got 2 weeks at 40% and then had to adjust it for the 2nd time to 20%. Every year is different, but the most I've ever adjusted it was 5 times a season. You'll be out at the pad anyway once a week or more, so losing the compatibility wouldn't bother me at all to retain the upsizing savings of a 60k unit.

I think I agree. I really don't care at all about CONTROL of the SWG by phone, might be nice to see the spec remotely but even that isn't a MUST for me. All i really want is to be able to control my lighting (status and color/intensity), heater, and engage my bubblers. If I can turn on the bubblers while my kids are swimming and turn it off by phone that would be much preferred over walking to the pad and turning valves..

 

[ajw22]

As a vendor agnostic type of person it would seem like the easiest option would be to move over to Pentair's 60k system? I know Hayward is generally well liked and I feel like I see them mentioned the most in my reading. If I parallel them am I going to lose automation of that uncontrolled cell?

Hayward and Pentair are about equal. I like Pentair stuff better.

With cells in parallel no cell is going to be "uncontrolled". Both will be connected to a SWG controller and one SWG controller will be connected to the automation system to be controlled remotely while the other will require control at the physical panel.

You're signature shows a similar sized pool, any particular reason you went Pentair?

When I got the house 20 years ago it had Jandy stuff. I have replaced the Jandy stuff with Pentair.

The Pentair IntelliChlor SWG is the least troublesome. The only weak spot is the flow switch/thermistor assembly which is replaceable. When you replace the cell you replace all the SWG controller electronics.

Hayward SWGs have many problems with control boards burning up and components failing. See Hayward Aquarite SWG - Further Reading

To your response on the S3 Omni, that looks like a good option. One issue Hayward seems to have it way too many options! So the S3 Omni is an Omnilogic controller (w/ or w/o salt cell and looks like requires an optional wifi antenna), then you have all that royal offers:

I know they are just one shop but they don't even offer the S3. At the end of the day, I'm sure these offer a fairly comparable baseline functionality. It seems like 4 relays, a heater and a pump are all a minimum and Hayward can feed to back to an app with all of them (correct me if that isn't right). The choice for me comes down to salt cell (size and configuration for pool my size), future proof, cost?

If I didn't get the S3 I would get the Hayward Omni PL with Salt but Royal does not list that. The S# and the OmniPL seem to be functionally identical in different packaging.

And this is what Hayward does. Just like Chevy would build many different model cars from the same parts bins so does Hayward. Hayward packages controller firmware and SWGs in different forms for different markets and price points. They may have different User Interfaces and displays.