I suspected the article was more fake news, god forbid journalists do proper research...but....we all know that the cya ratio got debunked eventually by Ben Powell.
Mad about phosphates!
- Thread starter bigcountryhb
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- jandy truclear phosphates
Yes and no. I have run an overnight test several times in the last 2 weeks, but I was doing so trying to verify the production of chlorine, so my generator was set at 100%. If my generator is not producing chlorine, then my overnight loss is zero. If the cell is working, it's making just enough chlorine overnight to negate any losses, as the chlorine is testing the same post-sunset and pre-sunrise.
I purchased both the SeaKlear and the K-1106 yesterday. They'll arrive tomorrow. Pool store friend tested my phosphates over 1,000, so this should be fun! I will be sure to report back to this thread with my results.
Thank you to all who have offered their insight...it is much appreciated.
If I remember, I will turn off the generator tonight and do an overnight loss test. If it makes any difference, my CC has not been over a .5 all season, more often than not at 0.
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mguzzy
Gold Supporter
So this is the big article that everyone cites as proof of the phosphate connection. Geeze. there is not one citation to anything that would lend it any authority. This is the authors opinion only and he includes one anecdotal story. Thanks for the breakdown 'Noise.
With this kind of support documentation no wonder if feels more like pool alchemy... perhaps I can turn the algae into gold.
I have an update on this situation. I am in complete shock! I lowered my phosphates to as close to zero as possible and my SWG started working just like new! I guess SeaKlear is now part of my regular routine.
- May 3, 2014
- 58,620
- Pool Size
- 6000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Wow! I just had my water checked today by a nearby Leslie's and was given the 'Phosphates are too high (1000 ppb)' pitch. (everything else was good)
My SWG is working fine; the Free Chlorine and Total Chlorine are both 4.
I have a Pentair IC40 SWG. (Pentair manual wants less than 125ppb of phosphates)
Perhaps the 1000ppb reading is off, but it does concern me since this pool is only ~13 months old. From reading a few articles, 1000ppb should take several years to get that high. … maybe I've got a bunch of swimmers who are peeing in the pool.
I haven't cleaned my pool filters for a few months so I'll have to do that today and filter my water for several hours after cleaning the filters.
I'll order a phosphates test kit and am debating on just using some SeaKlear or Orenda to get rid of most phosphates.
Perhaps the 1000ppb reading is off, but it does concern me since this pool is only ~13 months old. From reading a few articles, 1000ppb should take several years to get that high. … maybe I've got a bunch of swimmers who are peeing in the pool.
Whatever the article was is likely full of yucky info. There’s really no way to “predict” a phosphate level. I’ve seen city water reports that had phosphate levels higher than that right out of the tap. At 1,000ppb you’re still towards the low end of the scale, focus on chlorine and you’ll be fine......especially with a salt water generator.
Not searching for a magic bullet; just looking at this in terms of preventative maintenance and cost/benefit.
I have always held the belief that phosphates aren't important to monitor. However, there are several stories out there about SWGs not working properly, then after lowering phosphates in their pool, the SWG worked normally, much like bigcountryhb's story. And SWG manufacturers are telling us that our phosphates need to be controlled for SWGs to work properly.
Phosphates don't seem to be an issue in non-salt water pools, but there does seem to be some problems with SWGs due to phosphates.
Does the removal of phosphates do any damage to a pool and equipment? As long as one cleans their filters after allowing SeaKlear/Orenda remove phosphates, I'd say no. I haven't found anything out there that indicates removing phosphates is harmful for a pool.
So while I remain skeptical, does spending $35 on a quart of phosphate remover matter much considering the cost of having one's SWG stop working and the ensuing problems from a non-functioning SWG?
Is there any rational explanation as to why bigcountryhb's SWG started working again after he lowered the phosphates in his pool other than the lower phosphate level fixed his problem?
That phosphates matter in an SWG pool but not a conventional pool is a new one for me.
The complexity of
1. testing for phosphates (many say it is not necessary and only treat in the Spring),
2. treating for the subsequent cloudiness when you add phosphates (or do you just let it clear of it's own accord?),
3. the idea that some municipal water intentionally adds phosphates
4. Not being able to use phosphates if you are on a well and use sequestrants
5. Not important in a non-SWG pool ???
All these are qualifiers put out there by proponents of PR, not detractors. I am a bit overwhelmed by that and I pretty much know my way around pool water chemistry.
Teaching all the above to newbies who often are clueless that chlorine is consumed in a pool, and you have a pretty good recipe for confusion and distraction of the primary Tenant of TFP........Keep adequate chlorine in your pool......the results of that one idea go a LOT further than encouraging folks to use PR.
Flying Tivo
TFP Guide
- Jan 24, 2017
- 2,966
- Pool Size
- 7500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
You never posted the Phosphate levels prior to using Seaklear(either on your poollogs) and the after test. Do you have the numbers with the K-1106?
Let me state that I've followed TFP's collective wisdom and it's helped considerably in maintaining my pool. But after reading this thread and reading a bunch more on the web, I think that the TFP community is dead wrong on phosphates.
The problem for salt water pools, as seen by bigcountryhb's issue with his Jandy SWG warranty, is that leaving the phosphate level high voids the warranty. Pentair's manual states no more than 125ppb for phosphates so I'll assume it's definitely a SWG pool issue. That alone is a reason for salt water pool owners to keep their phosphates low. I don't know of any warranty issues on chlorine pools - perhaps it's also a warranty issue there.
1. There are kits out there to test for phosphates. There's at least one manufacturer (AquaCheck) that appears to have poor quality test kits based on Amazon reviews … the reagents have gone bad quickly.
2. ? You don't add phosphates; you add phosphate remover such as SeaKlear. As far as cloudiness, follow the manufacturer's directions? Here's what SeaKlear states:
Important: It is normal for this product to cause pool cloudiness, indicating that phosphates are being removed. The duration of the cloudiness will depend on phosphate levels and pool equipment, and can sometimes last up to 48 hours. While pool water is cloudy, swimming should not occur so plan your treatment accordingly. As needed, apply SeaKlear Chitosan Clarifier at a rate of 2 oz per 5,000 gallons of pool water to help clear cloudy water.
That sounds very straightforward.
3. Yes, my (Las Vegas) water has phosphates according to their website where they list water test results. I doubt that Las Vegas is alone in having phosphates in their water.
4. I'm not on a well so I have no comment.
5. The more I think about it, the more I think the TFP community is dead wrong on 'phosphates don't matter'. Phosphates are algae food. Why would one want to kill algae in their pool, yet leave a bunch of algae food in the pool? A bunch of phosphate just exacerbates any algae bloom. So I am now of the opinion that the TFP community needs to address phosphate levels no matter what type of pool.
For my pool, when I got it up and running last year, I ran my SWG at 23% for 2 hrs/day through the winter. I had to increase it in the spring and am now running it at 100% for 2hrs/day to keep the same chlorine level. I will have to see what settings I need with my SWG after I remove some phosphates from my pool. I suspect that my SWG will operate more efficiently once I've lowered the phosphate level in my pool.
Let me spitball this hypothetical.
Maybe leaving a lot of algae food (phosphates) in one's pool isn't the best thing to do in order to not have algae blooms. Would you leave a bunch of food out in your house, knowing that you could get a cockroach infestation due to the food being left there? That's pretty much what we're doing when we ignore phosphate levels in our pools.
I'll even go a bit further on this. If someone needs to SLAM their pool, it would be prudent if they used phosphate remover in conjunction with dumping a ton of chlorine into their pool. I've SLAMed a previous pool and in retrospect, I wish that I had also tried to lower phosphates along with killing algae. I think it would have been much more effective.
Last thought on this matter: do you think a pool with algae bloom would be easier to clean if it had a phosphate level of 300ppb than a pool with 3000ppb? I think the pool with the lower phosphate level will be easier to kill off the algae, and that's why I am going to start using SeaKlean or Orenda in my pool whenever my SWG is less effective.
Thank you for posting that; I think we need to rethink the impact of high phosphate levels in pools.
Before I post this please note, this is coming from somebody who’s used phosphate removers for the last 2 years. I understand the pro’s and I understand the cons. I’m not gonna claim it know all, but some of what’s said leaves me saying to myself “that’s not practical.” Please also note that it’s 3am here and I’m posting 1/2 asleep, so typos WILL occur. So let’s start.......
Short term data at best with multiple variables. Was the CYA levels the same? Was the weather the same? Before jumping and insinuating that phosphates have ruined your cell after a year, but adding phosphate removers will fix it, let’s see more of a long term pattern. Not saying that phosphates can’t coat a cell, but I am saying that I’ll put money that the colder winter temps and less UV played a larger part in your overall chlorine demand than did phosphates.
So lets just say you tossed caution into the wind and dumped in a full gallon of phosphate removers ensuring all phosphates are gone before preforming a SLAM......except that contained in the cell walls of the algae. As soon as the living algae is killed from the chlorine the phosphates from their cell walls are released into the water. As soon as you start killing the algae you will increase your phosphate levels. Let each chemical do its own job. First let the chlorine kill the algae then let the phosphate removers rid the water of all the phosphates.
Short term data at best with multiple variables. Was the CYA levels the same? Was the weather the same? Before jumping and insinuating that phosphates have ruined your cell after a year, but adding phosphate removers will fix it, let’s see more of a long term pattern. Not saying that phosphates can’t coat a cell, but I am saying that I’ll put money that the colder winter temps and less UV played a larger part in your overall chlorine demand than did phosphates.
Well done Pentair! At 125ppb (note the b for BILLION) this just left an out to deny a warrantee for almost every pool out there. Trying to get/stay lower than 125ppb is going to drive you nuts! Additionally, the idea is stupid. Why wouldn’t you just lower it an additional 25ppb and make it where algae can’t grow? Life cannot happen when phosphates are under 100ppb, so why not drop the phosphate levels that extra spit and just ignore the FC/CYA ratio all together? Trying to maintain lower than 125ppb phosphate level will drive you insane, promise.
If I also mix in a chemical that has been proven to kill cockroaches almost instantly while having little effect on its surroundings, then I’d have less of an issue. Not saying a lower phosphate level doesn’t help, but I am saying chlorine is FAR more important the overall picture.
But you’re missing two key items, algae contains phosphates and phosphate testing is inaccurate when algae is present. If you’ve got algae in the water you’re left blindly adding phosphate removers. Even Orenda admits their test maybe inaccurate when algae is present.
So lets just say you tossed caution into the wind and dumped in a full gallon of phosphate removers ensuring all phosphates are gone before preforming a SLAM......except that contained in the cell walls of the algae. As soon as the living algae is killed from the chlorine the phosphates from their cell walls are released into the water. As soon as you start killing the algae you will increase your phosphate levels. Let each chemical do its own job. First let the chlorine kill the algae then let the phosphate removers rid the water of all the phosphates.
I made no claims that phosphates have 'ruined my cell'. And I'm fully aware that chlorine demands are different at different times of year. I'll simply state that AT THIS TIME last year, my SWG settings were 23% and now I need 100% to maintain the same chlorine level. Are my CYA levels different? Almost certitude. And yes, there are plenty of variables - too many to list. So there's always that caveat to fall back on if one wants to defend the consensus 'phosphates don't matter'.
I remember my low SWG settings from last year because the guy that walked me through the setup was surprised by my low SWG setting after a couple of months of use. And I even ran the pool filtration system for less time daily than I do now.
But you're also ignoring two TFP members (not me; bigcountryhb and Pool_Medic) in this thread stating that they saw that lowering phosphates in their pools (in Pool_Medic's case, a client's pool) resulted in non-working SWGs to now work. I know that it makes no sense since 'phosphates don't matter', but there are other postings on the internet indicating that removing phosphates from salt water pools has resuscitated SWGs. Maybe, just maybe, the TFP community needs to reexamine phosphates and stop viewing them as a pool store 'scam' to get more money from pool owners. Or a scam by pool equipment manufacturers to void warranties. There are enough anecdotal testimonies out there that phosphates DO matter, at least for SWGs.
What I don't understand, Leebo, is that you admit that you use phosphate removers, yet are here defending the consensus that 'phosphates don't matter'. If phosphates don't matter, why are you using phosphate removers?? That makes no sense at all to me.
FWIW, I've ordered a quart of commercial SeaKlear phosphate remover and will be treating my pool with it. I'll give it enough of a time lag to report on whether or not my SWG is more efficient.
Bottom line: I'm asking the TFP community to reexamine the 'phosphates don't matter' consensus and look at possibly adding phosphate removal as part of maintaining a healthy pool.
Once it gets in your pool, when do you start testing again to see if you have reached a satisfactory level? What is that level? How do you keep it there?
Phosphates.....are they worth removing??
Over the last few day's there has been a few threads started about phosphates and their benefits in pools. Over the years I've formed a few questions concerning phosphate removers and would like to hear other members thoughts about their use. My first question is a simple one........When are...
www.troublefreepool.com
I’ve said two things as I’ve tinkered on the internet trying to learn about phosphates as they pertain to pools,
1. There’s a TON of poor info out there on the subject.
2. Always start with a test of YOUR water.
2. Always start with a test of YOUR water.
I’d like to not Hi-Jack this thread further but if you wanna know more about what I’ve learned and how I feel, it’s in this thread.