Is there a longer lasting VSP...current is PureLine/Century Motor

hewewman

New member
Jan 11, 2019
3
Tallahassee, FL
So, back in Jan of 2019, I bought a Pure Line VSP from Inyo. Well, the motor is getting louder and louder so I know it's going bad. I am going to replace it with the same motor this time.

For next time, has anyone had better luck with the Pantair/Hayward brands of VS Pumps, or is 2-4 years the norm for these new pumps?
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
23,158
Bedford, TX
H,

I have three pools that all have Pentair IntelliFlo VS pumps.. The pumps run 24/7, most of the time at about 1200 RPM.. One pump is about 6 years old, one is about 8 years old, and the last one is about 10 years old.. I see no signs of any wear. For me, anything less than 10 years would be a real disappointment. A 20 year life span would not be out of the question..

When new, and running at 1200 RPM, it was "almost" impossible to tell they were running as they were so quiet. The noise has increased slightly, but still so quiet you can't hear them unless you are almost right next to the pump.

If one of them fails today, I would have another one on my porch tomorrow..

Good luck with your pump hunt..

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,264
So, back in Jan of 2019, I bought a Pure Line VSP from Inyo. Well, the motor is getting louder and louder so I know it's going bad. I am going to replace it with the same motor this time.

For next time, has anyone had better luck with the Pantair/Hayward brands of VS Pumps, or is 2-4 years the norm for these new pumps?
Most likely, the seal failed and water got to the front bearing.

There is also an issue with water getting in the electrical compartment due to a design defect in the compartment access cover.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,264
The number one thing is to use a good seal that is “Ozone/Salt” rated or silicon carbide. The regular seals fail too fast and, in my opinion, they should never be used. Also, use seal installation lube to install the seal properly. Periodically, check under the pump to see if the seal is leaking and replace the seal immediately if it leaks.



 

1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
170
Sacramento
The pictures I have seen on Inyo Pool's site of the pump you describe indicate that it is a re-branded Hayward Super Pump with a V-Green 165 motor instead of the motor that Hayward Supplies. that is a good motor.
It is, possibly, a clone of the wet-end with the V-Green motor. There is a company in Southern California that has, for years, been supplying copies of older model wet-ends, and sometimes new OEM wet-ends, that companies use to build and brand their own pumps. All pump manufacturers out-source their motors anyway.
A motor shop would/should be able to replace the bearings in your motor. I've done it and I'm not a shop. Easier than a standard motor.
Pump manufacturers have all, quietly, told me that they recommend replacing their shaft seals at least every five years. I don't know of anyone, including me, who does that.
An issue that many are not aware of is the importance of proper grounding and bonding of a variable-speed pump/motor. Without this, there can be an issue where the nature of the motor will cause the bearings to go bad. Weird I know, but the research is out there. I don't understand the science but have seen the issue myself.
 
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JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,264
An issue that many are not aware of is the importance of proper grounding and bonding of a variable-speed pump/motor.
All pumps should be grounded and bonded, but that isn’t going to help.

Variable frequency drives (VFDs) can cause shaft currents that discharge through the bearings.

To mitigate the effect, you would need to ground the shaft.
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
23,158
Bedford, TX
James,

Are the shafts not grounded internal to the pump? If not, that seems a poor way to make them..

Also, aren't the bearings in VFD motors special to reduce the problem of shaft current?? It seems I read that somewhere...

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,264
The bearings should be inverter duty. I don't specifically know which bearings are in which pumps.

The bearings isolate the shaft from the frame. So, current has to discharge through the bearings unless the shaft is grounded. The shaft rotates. So, the grounding device has to make electrical contact without interfering with the rotation.

There are ground devices for this purpose, but I don't know if any of the pool pumps use the ground device.

 
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NJpoolNoob

Member
Dec 27, 2020
24
Hammonton NJ
Pool Size
20000
Surface
Fiberglass
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
CircuPool Edge-40
So I'm new to this pool thing but have been installing irrigation and pond pumps for over 20 years. I always tilt the pump ever so slightly down towards the pump body on every install. Those seals are a wear item and when they leak it will prevent the water from trickling down the motor shaft. Also if your looking to just replace the motor, baldor makes top of the line motors in every frame size. If swapping bearings on a motor use a quality Japanese bearing.
 

1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
170
Sacramento
According to an A.O.Smith/Century motor manufacturer's rep I spoke with about this issue, if a motor is properly grounded AND bonded they do not see a problem with their bearings. Yes, they use a bearing that is designed for VFD use. On a V-Green motor the installer has to run a small wire from the electrical ground terminal to the case ground inside the drive. They want this wire to be 12g. Other brands of pumps usually have a pig-tail running from the ground wire/terminal but it is usually stranded wire which, as a personal opinion, I have never trusted.

Of all the variable-speed pumps and motors I have installed, V-Greens are the only one that has this and I have seen many installed without that wire. They were also the ones that, until I was better educated on the subject, I thought the bearing failure was a seal leak. I have seen Hayward VSP drives replaced without the four mounting screws completely tightened (they are hard to get tight). They are also what ground the motor case. Bearing problems in every one that I have seen like that.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,264
On a V-Green motor the installer has to run a small wire from the electrical ground terminal to the case ground inside the drive.
If this is important, why isn't it done at the factory?

Does the manufacturer provide this information anywhere?

The drive is secured to the metal frame with metal screws. So, it seems that the drive would be sufficiently grounded.

The problem is due to a voltage difference between the motor shaft and frame, which causes a discharge that has to go through the bearings unless there is some sort of device used to ground the rotating shaft.

I don't know what different manufacturers use for bearings or shaft grounding.

I don't know how common bearing damage is due to current vs water from a shaft leak.

All pumps should be bonded and grounded in any case.

Maybe a lack of bonding and grounding would cause some problems, but I don't see how it would increase bearing damage from shaft currents discharging through the bearings.

A lack of bonding and grounding might cause a buildup of static charge on the motor frame which might be dangerous, but that's just speculation.

If there was no bond or ground, the case would likely build up a voltage closer to the shaft voltage, which would reduce shaft to frame current, but this would likely create additional problems and probably safety issues if the case built up a dangerous level of voltage.
 
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1poolman1

In The Industry
Jul 14, 2014
170
Sacramento
I gave up wondering why pool equipment manufacturers do anything years ago. Even the users manual does not mention this wire though the wiring diagrams show the screw in the wiring compartment . I happened to notice the markings in the wiring compartment on a manufacturer's display unit when the motors first came out and asked about it. If you haven't installed one of the V-Green 2.7 motors you won't be familiar with what I am saying.

The actual ground terminal is one of three on an insulated terminal block that provides a ground for the control system. It is does not appear to be connected to the drive body but sits on a piece of plastic. Its hard to see if that terminal is connected to the case. With out that extra piece of wire I was told the drive case is not grounded though it is bonded if the proper bond wire is in place. It takes all of 5 minutes or less to put the wire there so I don't mind doing it.

Don't know the engineering of why a lack of grounding and bonding would cause these issues. I do know that I have read that it can, seen photos of the damage that was attributed to a lack of proper grounding and bonding, and I do know what I have seen personally.

I have taken these motors apart and replaced the bearings in a few. While I ordered the recommended bearings, I didn't notice anything different about a grounding system for the shaft. Just bearings pressed on a shaft and then fitted tightly into the bearing cups in the end bells. No extra rings, etc. The motors themselves are very simple as the rear end bell doesn't have all the wiring in the way. Until recently, it appeared that Pentair, Hayward, Jandy, and Waterway all used the same brand of motor, Century, with different hp ratings (Pentair) and drive mounting brackets. Things are different now with the proliferation of many horsepower ratings and the new HHP that the federal government will require this July.
 

JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,264
Until recently, it appeared that Pentair, Hayward, Jandy, and Waterway all used the same brand of motor, Century, with different hp ratings (Pentair) and drive mounting brackets.

The IntelliFlo motor comes from Lafert S.p.A in Italy.

S.p.A. means “Società per azioni” and it is a form of corporation in Italy, meaning "company with shares", “Joint stock company” or “Public Limited Companies by Shares.


ao-smith-v-green-27-hp-round-flange-56j-variable-speed-motor-ecm27cu-767dce02-d177-4625-a8e3-f0a49c1f0147.jpg


Where is the ground connection?

The manual does not say anything about this connection.

If it was important, why wouldn't they do it at the factory or mention it in the manual?
 
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JamesW

TFP Expert
Mar 2, 2011
28,264
seen photos of the damage that was attributed to a lack of proper grounding and bonding,
Just because someone attributes the problem to a specific cause does not mean that it was actually the real cause of the problem.

In any case, all pumps should be bonded and grounded.

The shaft is isolated from the rest of the motor by the bearings. The only way for voltage to discharge from the shaft would be through the bearings, maybe arcing from the rotor to the frame or from a shaft ground.

The ground and bond do not directly connect to the shaft. So, they can't help discharge voltage from the shaft only the frame.
 

willygee

Silver Supporter
Aug 24, 2020
180
central fla
Pool Size
10000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
This is an informative post...V Green soon for 10 year old Hayward single speed still performing well. Salt rated shaft seal as well. Bonding and ground..so important :)
 
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