Is it Possible Subterranean Termites did this to this pool?

[curly212]

This gunite pool (Stonescapes or PebbleTec) was constructed 6 years ago. Pool was professionally maintained weekly, but home was not occupied by owners for 2 years. Owners returned to home in February 2022 to see evidence of infestation of subterranean termites in garage, inside house, and in all sliding doors adjacent to the pool as they were eating wood framing inside all sliding doors framing pool deck (see entire area marked in red - which is only feet away from the rust stain). This new rebar rust stain was spotted the same month the termites were spotted. Could this be termite damage from under the pool deck???? ... eating their way to the water and then the rebar rusting as a result of the termites putting a pin hole to access water? Have you seen anything like this before and how can termite origin be surmised for insurance purposes? Strange this was all seen the same month.And I can't believe a Stonescapes/PebbleTec pool would be failing after 6 years!? Please help!

 

[Newdude]

Hey Curly and Welcome !!

In short, no. There is nothing under the deck for them to eat. The rebar is encased in concrete, and although there may be an occasional bubble, they didnt walk it one end to the other and wouldn't eat the plaser if they could get there.

They love wood that has been wet. Even long after the fact. Was there ever a flood ? Does that area drain away from the house great in a heavy rain ? The garage too ?

Is there gutters on the house ? With nobody there, they may have been clogged and roof water poured and soaked the area several times, all but begging the ants to come feast.

 

[curly212]

There was never a flood. There are slotted floor drains in that pool deck parallel to the sliding doors that had the termites. The water drains into those pool 'floor' drains from pool edge (high spot) to floor drains (low spots). So you are 100% sure the termites could not have caused that rust stain/rusting pinpoint rebar? If you say no way termites caused this, then I have part 2 of my question next....

 

[Newdude]

There was never a flood. There are slotted floor drains in that pool deck parallel to the sliding doors that had the termites.

Houses don't fare well empty and this is a great example. The drains, or wherevs they drain too could have clogged and water would have pooled for several storms. Maybe it fixes itself, maybe a random landscaper fixes it a month or 3 later and nobody ever knows.

So you are 100% sure the termites could not have caused that rust stain/rusting pinpoint rebar?

They eat wood. Not cement, rebar or plaster. Plaster chips or mottles and rebar rusts. Those 2 are like peas and carrots.

 

[mknauss]

Put a strong magnet over the rust origination spot.

Looks like a tie wire.

 

[ajw22]

Termites cannot eat their way through gunite.

However, if all wood was not cleared from the soil and any wood was left near the gunite wall the termites could get to it in a void in the gunite. You often see construction debris left around the house that attracts termites.

Also termites have been known to chew holes in flex pvc.

 

[curly212]

This gunite pool (Stonescapes or PebbleTec) was constructed 6 years ago. Pool was professionally maintained weekly, but home was not occupied by owners for 2 years. Owners returned to home in February 2022 to see evidence of infestation of subterranean termites in garage, inside house, and in all sliding doors adjacent to the pool as they were eating wood framing inside all sliding doors framing pool deck (see entire area marked in red - which is only feet away from the rust stain). This new rebar rust stain was spotted the same month the termites were spotted. Could this be termite damage from under the pool deck???? ... eating their way to the water and then the rebar rusting as a result of the termites putting a pin hole to access water? Have you seen anything like this before and how can termite origin be surmised for insurance purposes? Strange this was all seen the same month.And I can't believe a Stonescapes/PebbleTec pool would be failing after 6 years!? Please help!

OK thanks everyone...if NOT termite damage, let me tell you the rest of the story and ask you what I should do. Again, this gunite pool was 100% reconstructed/refinished 6 years ago. No issues for 6 years until this February with the rust (rebar/tie wire) stain. I understand such a condition is like a cancer, and must be completely fixed or will spread. My father contracted for the work 6 years ago through his local Florida pool supply store (and the receipt for the work was with this store). No other paperwork/warranty info was exchanged. The pool supply store contracted for the work through a pool construction and refinishing company that is still in business. The only paperwork received for the job was a sales receipt from the pool supply company that said it was for "PebbleTec/Pebble Sheen". When I asked the pool supply store who did the work they gave me the number of company he said did the work (as they said this is the ONLY pool refinishing company they ever give the work to). The pool refinishing company (the son now runs it) says they are still looking for record of doing the job but he admits the father (former owner) kept horrible records. Also. this company said they never used Pebble Tec -- they only used Stonescapes and is not an authorized Pebble Tec company - just Stonescpes. So as this company looks for record of doing the work (they probably did do the project); and the Pool Supply store really does nothing...we need to either get a nice patch done OR need to re-do the whole pool. I have owned gunite pools in the past and am surprised and dismayed that we have rusting rebar in Year 6; I would expect to be trouble free for 20 years or at least 10 years. Either this is a workmanship issue or a materials issue. My receipt says Pebble Tec but the pool refinishing company (that did come to look at the rust stain) says what was installed looks like Stonescapes. So what do you think my recourse is? Year 6 is too soon for such a failure! Help! PS I feel like maybe we were charged for Pebble Tec and we received Stonescapes (1/2 the cost)! PPS Is there any way to do a very good repair/patch and not have it look like a patch? PPPS: Who should be responsible for paying for any required repairs. I understand Stonescapes warranty might be 10 years?

 

[Newdude]

I'm with Marty in post #5 that its possibly not a failure and instead a common mistake. They twist tie the rebar together anywhere they cross. This results in 200 (?) Twisties sticking up/out. If 1 or sometimes 7 dont get bent over or pushed down far enough, they poke through the finish and rust.

How much time did it have to stain ? Could you guess how long it festered before it was noticed ?

 

[Dirk]

My new pebble developed a rust spot not long after it was re-done. Like you I was worried about rebar poking through, or too close to the surface. The installer honored the warranty and came out and fixed it. Took like 10 minutes, because he was done before I could even see what he did. No charge. I can't find where it was, and frankly I never looked that hard. No more rust. Done deal.

From your description of the paperwork, it doesn't sound like you have any sort of contract. You could be getting riled up (pardon the assumption) for nothing, because there probably isn't any recourse. The original contract, such as it was, was between two people no longer involved. Focus instead on the fix.

See if the son will come out and find what's rusting and apply a decent patch. Hopefully he'll be reasonable, which is going to be more likely if you tread lightly with the "who's liable" talk and all that. Then don't look too close at the patch and forget the whole thing, including if it was Stonescapes or PebbleTec. If there is any possibility of you proving and then recovering any sort of monetary damages, it won't be much, and it won't be worth the stress. But you could very easily get all stressed out pursuing "what you are owed" and end up getting nothing, not even a repair.

You're already in the hole to me for 2¢, so there's that...

 

[curly212]

I'm with Marty in post #5 that its possibly not a failure and instead a common mistake. They twist tie the rebar together anywhere they cross. This results in 200 (?) Twisties sticking up/out. If 1 or sometimes 7 dont get bent over or pushed down far enough, they poke through the finish and rust.

How much time did it have to stain ? Could you guess how long it festered before it was noticed ?

The rust was just noticed in mid Feb 2022. We came back to property 1/1/22 and it wasn’t there. So it’s new. Do you know the process of being able to try cut back and patch? Is it possible to patch but do a new color skim coat in the entire pool so the color all matches (without having to redo the entire pool?)

 

[curly212]

Do you know the process of being able to try cut back and patch? Is it possible to patch but do a new color skim coat in the entire pool so the color all matches (without having to redo the entire pool?)

 

[curly212]

My new pebble developed a rust spot not long after it was re-done. Like you I was worried about rebar poking through, or too close to the surface. The installer honored the warranty and came out and fixed it. Took like 10 minutes, because he was done before I could even see what he did. No charge. I can't find where it was, and frankly I never looked that hard. No more rust. Done deal.

From your description of the paperwork, it doesn't sound like you have any sort of contract. You could be getting riled up (pardon the assumption) for nothing, because there probably isn't any recourse. The original contract, such as it was, was between two people no longer involved. Focus instead on the fix.

See if the son will come out and find what's rusting and apply a decent patch. Hopefully he'll be reasonable, which is going to be more likely if you tread lightly with the "who's liable" talk and all that. Then don't look too close at the patch and forget the whole thing, including if it was Stonescapes or PebbleTec. If there is any possibility of you proving and then recovering any sort of monetary damages, it won't be much, and it won't be worth the stress. But you could very easily get all stressed out pursuing "what you are owed" and end up getting nothing, not even a repair.

You're already in the hole to me for 2¢, so there's that...

Thank you! By chance, do you know the process of being able to try cut back and patch? Is it possible to patch but do a new color skim coat in the entire pool so the color all matches (without having to redo the entire pool?)

 

[Newdude]

The rust was just noticed in mid Feb 2022. We came back to property 1/1/22 and it wasn’t there. So it’s new.

OK, great. So it only had a month. The longer a stain sits the harder it is to.come off sometimes. I was worried it had a much longer head start.

I'm pretty sure the 'patch' is much less of a deal in this situation, being dime sized or smaller. It will be real hard to randomly spot it, and darn near impossible to see with any water movement. If it was a 3 foot long crack that needed patching, you'd see it no matter how hard you tried not to.

*providing its just that speck and not a larger area that is crumbling.

 

[Dirk]

^^^ What @Newdude said. It'll probably be a tiny patch. They're not going to patch the whole stain. Depending on what is rusting, they might just dig out a little chunk, take out whatever is rusty, and then patch just the divot. The stain can be addressed in other ways, chemically or with minimal abrasion (scrubbing) or both.

You don't want them to redo your finish over something like this. That could just end up making things a whole lot worse. Someone with any skill will make the patch near undetectable. And that's when it's dry. With water in the pool, you won't see it. And with luck the stain will lift. We have folks here that can advise you about how to DIY if your pool guy can get it done.

If I may, seriously my friend, this is likely a small thing and ya gotta adjust your thinking a little. Start off, ya know, down here, before you get waaaay up there. Calmly discuss your expectations with the original contractor, that you'd like his to see what he can do about the stain and its cause, and give the guy a chance to do the right thing before you go off on him with talk of liability or redoing the entire pool. Of course, you know him better than me, but I'm just cautioning you to not turn what might be a simple thing into a massive battle, not before you have to, anyway. This is probably a "you'll catch more flies with honey" type deal...

 

[curly212]

Hi everyone. Wanted to ask a follow up question as I have some new info. So my concrete pool had a bad rust stain (very near where large subterranean termite colony was found) in fact the rust stain started the month the termites colony was found and treated; anyway pool company removed the rust (cut it out) but the rust area continued below where the cut was made, they sealed it but now the rust has returned about 3 weeks after the fix (you can see it to the left of the patch). No tie wire or rebar was found during the investigation and cut and patch though they looked extensively. Could this be termites? If not what is this as pool contractor has no idea??? Please help!

 

[Bperry]

Hi everyone. Wanted to ask a follow up question as I have some new info. So my concrete pool had a bad rust stain (very near where large subterranean termite colony was found) in fact the rust stain started the month the termites colony was found and treated; anyway pool company removed the rust (cut it out) but the rust area continued below where the cut was made, they sealed it but now the rust has returned about 3 weeks after the fix (you can see it to the left of the patch). No tie wire or rebar was found during the investigation and cut and patch though they looked extensively. Could this be termites? If not what is this as pool contractor has no idea??? Please help!

Termites don’t eat stuff like that.

 

[curly212]

Agree, but could they be creating channels in hairline cracks already in pool to access pool water?

 

[curly212]

We've ruled out rebar too close to the surface or a tie wire. What else could this rusting be (looks to be between the concrete and marcite)??

 

[curly212]

A few months ago we noticed rusting in our gunite pool. Contractors said most likely cause was a rusting tie wire or rebar too close to the surface. We did an exploratory patch last month right at the rusting area, and didn't find either. We did see staining (in between the concrete and marcite that looked organic or like rusting) that went further below the patch. A few weeks later and another rust stain has appeared...what could this be if we've ruled out tie wire or rebar too close to surface. Pool is 25 years old with refinishing done 7 years ago. No issue in all that time until this year. Also we had a major termite infestation below pool deck in this area at the same time but nobody seems to think it's termites/termite tunneling/damage. Help