INPUT NEEDED - Extreme Pool Makeover (With Questions)

[Skyline]

Hey everyone,

I know it's a long post but I truly would appreciate any and all feedback, especially with equipment/component selection.

I'm planning an Extreme Pool Makeover on my current setup, and would like to get some feedback. I'll try to keep it short, so here goes...

Over the next year or two I plan on doing a complete makeover of basically everything in and around the pool. I am also planning to add/integrate a concrete block spa with spillover on the deep end of the existing pool.

We live in Pennsylvania, so the pool is open from sometime in May till usually sometime in October. We have about 3 hot months (June-August) out of the 5-6 that its open. There is a small pool equipment room (approx. 6'x7'); it's about 15'-20’ from the side of the pool.


PLAN

I'm planning to update the entire pool. The pool itself is about 50 years old, with a poured concrete shell that is painted and it may or may not have a thin layer of plaster under the several, flaking layers of paint. The shell seems to be in good condition, and I don't experience and leaking from it. The existing equipment is on its last legs though, and the heater and return piping is broken. Currently I'm using flex piping from the filter to return the water to the pool and I'm only using one skimmer to get adequate flow through it. I was previously returning the water to the pool reversed through the main drain, but it seemed like I was refilling the pool a lot more so I stopped doing it that way. I think maybe the main drain piping has a leak in it, so I am planning to just eliminate it during the makeover.

That said, I'm replacing practically everything... all new equipment, new skimmer and return lines, skimmers, valves, etc. I'll also be doing a full strip and refinish including coping, tile and plaster, and reinstalling a pool light and niche. And lastly add a travertine paver deck all around it over the existing concrete deck.

This is what I currently have...

- Pool size: 49.5' X 18.5', somewhere between 40-45k gallons　
- Lines: 2 skimmers, 1 main drain and 2 returns (right below the skimmers)　
- Pump: Old Hayward, 1 HP I believe (probably undersized)　
- Filter: Old Jacuzzi Sand (probably also undersized)
- Gas Heater: Hayward 400

Here is the proposed spa design which I found on the internet and like...

- Size: 9' x 9' OD; 7' x 7' ID; 49 sq.ft.
- Water Depth 3'-1"
- Gallons: Approx. 800-850

This is what I've come up with for my design parameters...

- Pool size: 40-45k gallons
- Pool flow rate based on 8 hour turnover: ~83-93 GMP
- Pool flow rate based on 10 hour turnover: ~67-75 GMP
- Spa jets: 2 loops of 5 or 6 jets each
- Spa jet flow rate based on 15 GMP/jet: ~150-180 GMP


LAYOUT & DESIGN

I'm trying to design everything to be as complete of a system as I can think of. I want it to be properly sized, very efficient and as automatic as possible, especially for daily maintenance of the water chemistry. I've been using the TFP method for the last few years, and its working fine even with my subpar current system. But since I'm redoing everything, let's make this a system that makes it as easy as possible for me maintain. I want to put in an automated control system too of course... something that I can setup modes, and easily control it from my phone.

I'm thinking I'll want the following modes:

- Pool Only
- Spa Only
- Spa Spillover

Here is what I've put together for the new plumbing equipment and piping layout...







Here is the list of equipment I believe I will need and most likely choice so now...

- Automated Control System
- Pentair Intellitouch or EasyTouch - model?

- Filter Pump
-Pentair 011018 IntelliFlo Variable Speed 3HP Pool Pump -or- maybe a more reliable/lower priced pump? I don't want to spend a small fortune on a top-of-the-line pump if I can pump that will give me 80-90% of its performance at half the cost and meet my needs. Plus I’ve been reading that the reliability of this pump is subject.

- Filter
- Pentair Quad Cartridge/DE Filter 80 or 100 w/ HiFlow MultiPort Valve

- Gas Heater
- 300k or 400k BTU Raypak (Rheem)

- Sanitizer
- Intellichlor IC60 Cell and Power Center (Combo)

- Auto Fill

- Skimmers (Qty. 2)

- Return Ports (Qty. 2)

- Piping and fittings (Qty. As needed)
- All hard PVC, no flex. Unions where beneficial

- 2-Port Gate Valves (Qty. ?)
- Jandy Never Lube

- 3-Port Gate Valves (Qty. ?)
- Jandy Never Lube

- Actuators (Qty. ?)

- Check Valves (Qty. ?)

- Flow Gauge and/or Pressure Gauge (If needed)

- Pool Light
- IntelliBrite 12V LED

- Pool Light Niche

-----

- Spa Jet Pump

- Spa Blower (If needed)

- Spa Jet Pump Drains (Qty. 2)
- SDX drains; 2" or 2 ½“ PVC at Drains, 3" PVC to Pump

- Spa Return Jets (Qty. 2 Loops of 5 or 6 Jets each)
- Waterway Storm PolyJets, 3" PVC Feed, 2" or 2 ½“ PVC to Ports

- Blower Line
- 2" PVC Feed, 1.5" PVC Loops

- Filter/Heater Drains (Qty. 2)
- MDX Floor drains -or- SDX drains; 2" PVC at Drains, 3" PVC to Pump

- Filter/Heater Return Ports: (Qty. 2)
- Brand?; 3" PVC Feed, 2" PVC to Ports

- Spa Light
- IntelliBrite 12V LED

- Spa Light Niche


MAKEOVER PHASES

1. Build the spa

2. Update Pool
- Strip the coping, tile and skimmers
- Level the bond beam and install new skimmers
- Install/repair pool piping and pool light
- Install coping and tile

3. Install paver deck

4. Update pool equipment

5. Plaster (last because of cost)


FEEDBACK / QUESTIONS

Please provide general and/or specific input on the plan and any other aspect of the project. I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions, but here are some of my initial ones...

- Please provide comments to the equipment and piping layout, pipe sizes and any suggestions for changes/additions.

- Please provide your recommendations for equipment, including brands, models and sizes/quantities.

- Which type and size filter should I go with and why? I'm probably ruling out sand just because of the size. I'm leaning towards the Quad DE 80 or100.

- What should I use for sanitation and why? SWG, clorinator or Stenner pump? I'm heavily leaning toward SWG. Do you think a 60 will big enough for my size pool to run based on an 8 (or 10) hour day? And how much would I have to worry about having saltwater with travertine coping and pavers? Also, where in the layout is it best to put the SWG?

- Should I design the system on an 8 or 10 hour turnover. It seems like the plumbing and equipment might like the flowrates from a 10 hour turnover better (70-75 GPM vs 90+ GPM)? Would that be ok and better for the overall performance of the system and the 3 proposed operating modes?

- Are 2 skimmers and 2 returns good? Should I add any more?

- Is it okay to keep the return ports right under the skimmers as they are now? How far down should the returns be located? And what kind and size return ports/eyes should I do?

- Should I add an extra suction and/or return port for a future vacuum or just to have one? I have a Dolphin Discovery robot right now which works nice, but I'm open to future options. I just don't want to add anything that probably won't get used or will be needed if I don't have to.

- Should I include a valve and piping to bypass the filter, heater and SWG? From what I've read, you could go either way, but I'm honestly thinking that I don't think I need it.

- Should I add in a flow and/or pressure gauge? I guess if I go with a SWG it will come with a flow sensor, but do I need a separate flow sensor. And I'm not sure if the filter will come with a pressure gauge or not, or if I would need an extra one.

- How far down should I lay the suction/return pipes in the ground? My understanding is they are akin to a sprinkler system and go maybe a foot down.

- Do I need a spa blower? How do I know if I need one or not? I read you might not need one, but I'm not sure. Should I plumb for one, then add one if I do?

- Can I put the spa jet pump right next to the spa to eliminate a good amount of piping? I could build a hollow step on the side of the spa and put the pump there. Also, how do you keep the water from flowing out of the pump when you remove the lid to clean the basket?

Should I run a single 3" pipe or dual 2" pipes to and from the spa and filter/heater?

If you’ve made it all the way to the end, thank you. And hopefully you can provide some input.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Re: Extreme Pool Makeover (With Questions)

Sky,

Welcome to TFP... a great place to find the answers to all your "How to write a pool building novel" questions....

Unfortunately, several of our older members passed away while reading your questions and it appears that I am the only one left...

Actually, it is a great write up, but covers so many different areas that it will be pretty hard for anyone to answer all of them.

I'll try to get the ball rolling...

Have you ever been in a gunite or concrete spa before? I ask, because although they are most often very pretty to look at, they are a lot less comfortable to sit in. Also, integrating a spa into a pool in a place like PA means that you can't really use it most of the year. Standalone spas are of course much uglier, but they are much more functional, comfortable and can be used year round...

Here is the EasyTouch that I think will work well for you.... https://sunplay.com/collections/pentair-easytouch-control-systems/products/pentair-easy-touch-control-system-521150
Notice that it comes with the IC60 and the EasyTouch has the built-in SWCG power supply. It also has two actuators that allow you to switch between the Pool mode, Spa mode and Spillover mode.
This ET also has the ability to control two additional actuators, as well as 7 other items that might need electrical power, such as a blower motor, Spa jet pump, landscape lights, pool lights, etc.

The only pump that the EasyTouch can control is the 3 HP IntelliFlo style pump. The 011018 IntelliFlo is the Gold Standard for pool pumps. If you heard bad things about this pump you just can't hear well, at all.. But it is now an older model. There are a couple of newer ones, but their main advantage is that the control panel can be rotated. Something that does not matter much if using automation.

The idea that you need X turn-overs per day is a Pool Store myth... It is just not true, so there is zero reason to even consider it. What keeps your pool clear is the chemicals in the water, not how many times the water passes through the filter.

I currently have three saltwater pools.. if I were to build a hundred more pools, they would all be saltwater pools... There is just no easier way to maintain a pool that saltwater... The IC60 would be hard pressed to keep up with a 45K pool here in Texas or Arizona, but in PA it should work for you just fine. Also, by using the IntelliFlo pump, you can run for a longer time to generate the chlorine you need but not have to worry about the electrical bill. For reference, I can run at 1200 rpm, 24/7 for less than $20 bucks a month.

If I were to get a DE filter it would be the Quad 100... I suspect that you could go all year and only have to clean it once... and this is with never backwashing it..!!

No matter what automation system you buy, it is almost a requirement to buy the same brand of pump and SWCG... As an example the AutoPilot SWCG that you list above cannot be controlled by the EasyTouch. This is because the units all need to be able to "talk" with each other and different brands all talk different languages.

Most people here like Raypak heaters and the bigger they are the faster they heat..

I am a highly biased Robot owner, but I always suggest adding a separate vacuum port that is controlled by a Jandy valve at the equipment pad..

I have no idea why you have so many check valves in your drawings...

You do not need to bypass the salt cell..

You do need a bypass for your heater.

Here is some more Automation thoughts, that I wrote a while back, for you to think about...

****
1. Automation will help you with pool maintenance, but it will not replace the need for you to test your water, understand what you are looking at, and then making sure your water is balanced. (Another reason you need the accuracy of the TF100 test kit.)

2. The main downside to automation is cost. So before going too far down this path, you might ask your PB what it's going to cost. That said, the best time to install automation is when the pool is being built, because all the connections to the system can be made without having to figure out how you are to get power across 50' of new deck. Also, the additional cost, when compared to the cost of the pool, will be miniscule.

3. Automation systems work best when the same brand is used because then the pieces can "talk" to together. So, in your case I would recommend the EasyTouch 4 (or 8) that has a built in power supply for the SWG and generally comes with the SWG and two valves. ScreenLogic2 is an absolute requirement if you want to be able to control things from your PC or Phone.

Here is a list of what I think the advantages are:

1. Appearance. Instead of having a bunch of different boxes hanging on your wall you have one, professional looking enclosure.

2. Circuit Breaker Panel. The bottom half of the enclosure is a circuit-breaker panel where the breakers for your pool equipment (Pumps, Heater, etc.) are located. This panel is also an excellent place to add surge protector, which is an absolute must if you have the Intelliflo pump. Even if you do not get the automation, make sure your PB includes a surge protector for the pump.

3. SWG Control. Without automation, your SWG will have to have a timer, synced to the pump timer so that it does not run when the pump is off. This function is built into the EasyTouch.

4. Spa mode and SWG output. Normally all the water flows through the SWG, so when in the Spa mode, the EasyTouch reduces the amount of chlorine the SWG produces, so that the Spa users are not subjected to high levels of chlorine.

5. Pool Lighting. The EasyTouch allows you to control your pool lighting from your PC and/or from a schedule. This is another reason to add the EasyTouch now. Once your pool light is wired to switches inside your house, it might be very difficult to get the wiring to any automation system.

6. Control of Spill-over and bubblers. Right now I'm sure you are thinking I want that spillover running 24-hours a day because it is so beautiful.. Well, after a few weeks of having your pH go through the roof, you'll appreciate the ability to only turn it on, when you want it on. The same with the bubblers. With the Easytouch, you can program them to run on a schedule for a few minutes a day to keep the everything properly chlorinated or when you want to "show off" to your guests..

7. Relay Control. The EasyTouch 4 has four (really three) relays that can be used to control other things, such as landscape lights. (The EasyTouch has 8 (really 7) relays.

8. Built in Valve controls. The EasyTouch has the ability to control 4 valves. Two work for switching between the Pool and Spa modes, while two others can be programmed to do whatever you might want, like bubbler control. I would note that a lot of bubblers are controlled by manual valves that cannot be automated. You need to be sure to tell your PB that you want Jandy style valves for your bubbler control.

9. Heater Control. The EasyTouch can control your heater.. So, you can be inside and tell your PC what temperature you want the Spa to be and it will tell you when it is ready.

10. ScreenLogic. ScreenLogic allows you to program the EasyTouch with various schedules. It lets you see most all of the inputs and output to the EasyTouch and lets you decide what you want on/off and in the case of your SWG, lets you adjust the % of output on the fly.

11. Pool pump speed... The EasyTouch can be programmed to adjust your pumps speed. So when running just the pool, it can run slow, but when running your waterfall, it will automatically increase the speed to make your waterfall or other water features look exactly how you want them to look.

****

Ok, I can feel the grim reaper closing in on me... So, if you have any more questions you might want to break them into smaller chunks before you kill us all off..

Good luck with your remodel..

Jim R.

 

[Skyline]

Jim,

Thanks for the reply and I do appreciate your input. Yeah, it's a long post but I wanted to include all the details.

I understand that I'll need to stick with one brand for the automation, pump and SWG. I'm leaning towards Pentair, but open to reccomendations for other options.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I need the 3 check valves. The first it to make sure the raised spa doesn't drain back to the pool, the second is to prevent backflow after the SWG, and the third is to prevent reverse crossflow in the pool/spa return piping. I don't think I need the 4th one. But that's why I'm asking for feedback.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Sky,

The check valve after the heater is installed to prevent backflow from a tablet feeder because it still has un-dissolved tablets in it which are very acidic and this backflow would be bad for the heater... When a SWCG is off, it is off and there is zero reason for the check valve between the heater and a SWCG.

When you have automation you do not need to have a make up valve to the Spa, because the automated valves have a Spillover mode. If you don't have a make up valve you do not need a check valve to keep the spa from draining back into the pool when in the Pool mode... You will soon find that constantly running your spillover will drive your pH up through the roof.. Once the newness wears off you will only run the spillover just when you have guests...

I am not at all sure what the check valve by the main pump is for????

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Brentr]

Darn where is Dirk when you need him

 

[Divin Dave]

Here is my .02

you need at least 2 more returns, on the opposite side of the pool. You want the water to circulate around and around the pool, and you can't do that easily with only 2 on one side.

If you have steps into the pool, i would recommend putting a return or jet to blow across them to help keep them clean and also to massage your feet!. A lot of dirt will gather there and you'll have to manually brush it off, often. A return or jet across the steps will help with that. If there is one thing I would do different with my pool, it's that.

Go with the biggest filter you can afford. No such thing really, as a filter which is too large. It will result in less frequency in cleaning it.

I cant tell from your sketch if you've considered it or not, but I also would install a valve on each suction and return line in front of the pump and after the SWG. They will give you a lot of flexibility to adjust circulation, as well as allow you to close one line in case of a leak, until the leak can be fixed.

 

[Skyline]

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the reply. I agree, I don't plan to use the spillover feature all the time. But to show it off will be nice.

The check valve near the pump is supposed to be to prevent the raised spa from draining back to the pool. But I guess it shouldn't do so that. It was something I saw in other plumbing diagrams.

The check valve after the SWG is there because the Pentair Installation Manual recommends putting one there.

The spa makeup check valve is there because I was planning to keep a little water flowing to the spa, which would spill over, when in normal pool mode. It was recommended to do this in other posts to always keep the water chlorinated and fresh in the spa.

I'll still evaluate your suggestions though.

- - - Updated - - -

Dave,

I'll look at adding more returns. Thanks.

I'll also look at adding the shutoffs like you recommend.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Sky,

I'm good if you want to add 100 check valves...

I'm just trying to provide the reasoning behind why they are needed or not needed. If you understand how a SWCG works, then you can understand how a check valve between the heater and the SWCG serves no function.

I'm also good with you adding a make up valve... But again, not necessary with automation.. Without automation, the spa would soon turn into a green pit unless you either have a make up line or manually turn the spa on for half an hour or so each day. With automation, you just program the system to run the spillover one or twice a day for a few minutes and that is all that is needed.

The check valve that prevents a raised spa from draining back into the pool is normally on the return side plumbing and usually on the make up line... not on the pump side...

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[Skyline]

Jim,

I took your suggestions. Check out the latest equipment layout and let me know what you think. Also, if anyone wants to comment on the pipe sizes, I would appreciate that too.

Thanks

 

[Jimrahbe]

Sky,

Looks good to me... With a big pool I would think about having 6 returns... two per Jandy valve.. Or all 6 on one Jandy valve but the returns for the pool would be a loop like I see you have for your spa...

I only have a 17K pool and it has 4 returns.. I have two rent houses, one with two returns and one with three returns.. they work, but I wish they had at least 4 each for better skimming action.

Keep in mind that without a make up line to the spa, an automation system will be "Required"... I am also assuming that you will have a VS pump which is required because with a big pool and a Salt cell, you will need to run your pump a long, long time each day... and a VS pump will allow you to adjust the Spa spillover flow when in the Spillover mode...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Skyline]

Jim,

Thanks again for your reply. I will see what I can do about adding more returns. It would be nice of this was a new build as I would easily add several returns. But with it being a remodel, it quite a bit harder.

Plus, isn't there a concern with having too many returns in relation to the number of suctions? I suppose if I put 2 returns per line then it would balance better. I just don't want to set it up where there is more flow in the returns than the auction lines.

Also, what is the real benefit of having an extra suction line in addition to the 2 skimmers I have? Is if for a suction cleaner? I already have a robot so I wouldn't probably use the suction line then. Just not sure what the real benefit of it would be.

And yes, I will be using automation for the pool and spa control. I'm 90% sure I'll go with the Pentair EasyTouch, as it'll let me put the IC60 SWG in there and yes I will run the Intelliflo VS pump so I can run it for a long run time at a lower flow to keep the SWG working when it really needs to make chlorine.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Sky,

Yes, the extra "suction" port is for a vacuum... Even if you have a robot, it makes sense to install a dedicated vacuum line, just in case you ever need it.. The cost is very little (for a new install) not sure about a remodel.. It is not required, just nice to have if the cost is no much..

The same goes for the returns.. you almost can't have too many for a new pool... The additional cost for a remodel might not make it worth the money... Again, not required...

Jim R.

 

[jimim]

I just wanted to bring this thread back up too to see if anyone has more advice. I know there is a lot going on here and it a big pool!

i didn’t realize u were adding a spa too!

Is it going on it’s own pump system to keep open in the winter here in nepa? I think I missed that part?

pics!

 

[Skyline]

I'm getting closer to starting this project full on. I've figured out my pool is actually about 32k-35k gallons instead of what I originally thought. And I've tweaked the layout diagrams one more time. See attached. If anyone has any more input, please feel free to comment. Thanks.

 

[jimim]

hey ur back. i was wondering what was going on. so u r adding the spa right? so is it going to be a separate body of water or raised off the pool wth overflow into pool?
did u decide who you are using? how did u make out with talking to everyone? i know my buddy said his large spa is done that the one guy you talked with is done. he said it came out really good. he is pretty happy.

jim

 

[mas985]

Do you plan to run 10-12 jets off one pump? 150-180 GPM is very high and beyond the limit of most residential pool pumps. What pump were you planning on using?

 

[Pcpanda]

My understanding at the diagram is at 6 Jets two skimmers a side or main drain a skimmer into drains in the hot tub with a suction side included what pump would you suggest?

 

[Skyline]

Jim,

Yeah it's more or less started. I'll end up doing a good amount of the work with my general contractor who does a lot of stone/concrete work and did pools years ago. I'm still trying to figure out what I'll have done by one of the other PB's.

Mark,

To make sure all is clear, especially with the diagrams...

The main loop for the pool and spa filtration/heating is shown on the left side of the equipment layout, while the loop for the spa jet pump and jets is show on the right.

The pool will have 2 skimmers and an auxiliary side suction port, all each on their own line to the main pump. It will have 3 or 4 return lines which will split into 6 returns ports total.

The spa will have 1 or 2 suction/drains and 1 or 2 return ports for the heat/filtration loop. It will also have the separate loop for the jets, which would be 1 or 2 suction ports going to a separate jet pump, and then returned to the spa and jet loop. I was thinking about 12 or so jets, with 6 jets each on 2 branches loops. I was not planning on putting a skimmer in the spa. The spa will be built right nest to the deep end and will be a spillover spa. It will be about 6' x 8' inside dimension and about 40" inside height, so about 36-37" water height, and will be controlled with automation. The spa jet pump and blower will be located in an equipment room located about 20-25' from the spa. The equipment room also houses the pool equipment.

I was thinking that 12 jets at 13-15 GPM would require 156-180 GPM. I would use a spa pump (maybe 4hp or so) for this. But am I over doing this? Would 6-8 jets be good? I just want to do it the best I can since I'm only getting one shot at it, and I'll have to live with what it is.

 

[Skyline]

This is what I am planning for regarding equipment...

- Pentair EasyTouch with Intellichlor IC60 Cell?

- Pentair 011018 IntelliFlo Variable Speed 3HP Pool Pump

- Pentair Quad Cartridge/DE Filter 100 (probably with Backwash or HiFlow MultiPort Valve)

- 400k BTU Raypak Heater(Rheem)

I'm open to recommendations for spa jet pump and blower.

 

[mas985]

If you are set on 12 spa jets, I would use two separate pumps for each of the two loops. A full rated 1.5 HP or even some 1 HP pumps would be enough for 6 jets each. It might be difficult to find outdoor rated pump large enough to run 12 jets. In general, to get twice the flow rate, the pump HP needs to go up by ~5x and the energy use goes up by that much too. So using 2 pumps will probably be much more economical.