Initial Pentair pump settings for our pool with spa, infinity edge, waterfall, and cleaner...and understanding labels in ScreenLogic app.

[ebot]

BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT:
MAIN QUESTIONS:
1. In what ORDER should I set the pumps to start so I don't have to prime them and they don't build up a lot of air pressure to release? (And they work well lol).

2. How many RPMs and hours do I need to run the pumps at a minimum to keep the green away assuming San Diego summer weather?

3. What do the labels mean?
Pentair Screenologic Connect app is great (though I have some suggestions for major improvements haha)...but it has some confusing labels.
"FEATURES" lists Waterfall, Spillway, Jets, Cleaner (no Spa).
"PUMPS" lists Pool, Spa, Jets, Spillway, Cleaner, "Pool or spa heater active" and "Solar active" (no Waterfall)
Both list Edge pump and Spillway and Cleaner so at least those 3 are consistent.

BACKGROUND:
A couple months ago a friend offerd to teach me basic saltwater pool maintenance/chemistry so I took it over (wife used to hire a service that didn't seem too attentive).
Chemistry balancing has gone "OK", but the pump system has been a challenge for me...which makes the chem balancing harder of course...latest issues have been pH and Calcium hardness too high; chlorine varies.

I put all the details in my signature and played with the pumps to see what each seems to do and messed around with their RPMs for a couple hours to see when things kick on.

Here's what I have so far:
DRAFT PUMP SETTINGS:
Edge pump 1600 RPM & Spillway pump 1600 RPM (SCG connects to this one and seems to need at least 1600 RPM to work): Run both 3hrs every day...start edge pump 30min before spillway pump to ensure (infinity) edge basin isn't over-filled and pool is overflowing back into infinity edge.
Cleaner (Vevor vacuum thing): Run at 2800 RPM 3 hrs Saturdays & Sundays (Vacuum seems to need around 2500-2800 to work).

 

[Jimrahbe]

How many RPMs and hours do I need to run the pumps at a minimum to keep the green away assuming San Diego summer weather?

e,

Well... Running the pump is not what keeps you from getting algae. Chemicals are what keeps your pool algae free, and not the amount of water that passes through the filter.

Since you have a SWCG, you will need to run the pump long enough for your IC40 to generate the amount of chlorine your pool needs each day. Unfortunately, your SWCG is a little small for your 36K pool.. We always recommend a cell that is at least 2 x the volume of your pool.

It would be best to run your main pool pump 24/7 at the lowest RPM you can and still keep the SWCG's flow switch closed. I don't see how three hours a day is going to generate the FC you need.

What is your CYA level?

Are you adding weekly bags of shock to your saltwater pool? I only ask as I don't understand how you don't already have a green pool. If you have a SWCG you should never have to add additional chlorine, but that assumes you are running your SWCG long enough each day...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ebot]

Dangit, cuz after 7 1/2 years, we just had to replace that thing. I guess I shoulda shopped an IC60 instead.

I haven't shocked it at any point. The Intellichlor does have a 24-hour "Super Chlorination" setting that I'd try first, but I haven't even needed to do that yet. (See page 16 here).

I should add - i'm not entirely sure about how many gallons our pool is. You can see it's sort of oddly kidney-ish shaped and has varying depth, so I just did my best one day measuring and trying to guess the average depth and using the old Length x width x average depth x 6.7. It could be less, I doubt it's more than 36k.
Another poster with 27k pool mentioned that with IC40 at 15 GPM (~ 1200-1250 RPM) on IntelliFlow VF, the Flow Switch activates chlorine generation...although JasonLion also made a plug for an IC60 for him too.

Well, we've never run it more than about 6hrs weekdays and maybe 8hrs weekends, and I've had times where Chlorine levels were actually too high (with the intellichlor set to 100%), so I'm pretty sure we don't necessarily need 24/7. However, the pool service had the pump RPMs nearly maxed out, so if I figure out the minimum RPM for each pump, I may end up needing 24/7 then. I'm not sure why we've needed so few hours, if everyone else is needing 24/7, but I'm guessing partly because the guy had the pumps all max speed, and we only swim in the Dang thing like 5 days a year lol!
Last comprehensive chem check was 8/22 and the only things off were
FC 0.11 (Total same)
pH 8.1 high
Ca Harness 517 high
CYA 42 low

Soon after that check, I realized the (new) SCG wasn't working at all needed a 1/4 muriatic acid clean (probably because Ca Hardness was high?) and it worked great after and I quickly overshot the Chlorine level...and that's without fixing the CYA yet. I just bought the conditioner stuff to fix that, but that leads me to another question.

My understanding is there's a Pro way to attack these chem levels in an optimal order....another thing that pool schools don't seem to emphasize enough imo.
The best order would be like this, right?
"0" -- Put water in pool Then plug in pumps. Then make sure your pumps all work right and are on long enough at enough RPM and turn on/off in the right order.
1 pH
2 Alkalinity
3 Chlorine
4 Ca Hardness
5 CYA
....So, since CYA is a later thing, and it's not massivly off to begin with, I thought I'd try getting the other items right first and then see.
No green for now.
I haven't checked chems again since because I think i keep f'ing up how i'm running the pumps.

 

[Jimrahbe]

e,

If your old cell lasted over 7 years and you never had algae, then I suggest that you keep doing what you are doing...

That said, an FC of .1 is basically zero and I have no clue how you are not getting algae.

You should check out our Pool Care Basics and see how differently we operate our pools..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

The Intellichlor does have a 24-hour "Super Chlorination" setting that I'd try first

The "Super Chlorination" feature just sets the IC to 100% output for a day (24 hours, if I remember right), then restores the output setting to what it was before you pushed that button. It's not any sort of turbo feature, so it doesn't produce any extra chlorine. It's just a convenience, so you can go to 100% without having to remember to set the output back to "normal" the next day.

Perhaps @Jimrahbe can verify, as the IC manual is thin on the topic. I believe the 24 hour Super Chlorination period spans your scheduling. So, for example, if your IC is only on for 8 hours a day @ 50% output, and you push Super Chlorination in the morning, it'll go to 100% for 8 hours, then the next day it'll do another 8 hours at 100%, and again the third day, for a total of 24 hours. Then on the fourth day, it'll reset to 50% output.

If you run your pump 24/7, then the IC will super chlorinate for 24 hours straight, and then resume the 50% output.

 

[Dirk]

Jim explains how your SWG runtime governs your filter pump's runtime. That's how most of our pool's work, except those of us with solar. Then it'll be either the SWG requirement, or the solar heating requirement, that determines your pump's runtime. And that can change throughout the year.

For example, I want my solar to run 8 hours a day. My SWG doesn't need to run 8 hours to sanitize my pool, so it's my solar runtime that governs my pump's runtime. My SWG runs for the same 8 hours, so I just turn down the SWG's output to dial in my FC.

But that's only true in the summer, when I heat my pool. During off season, the solar is put away in fall, and so my pump runtime drops to 4 hours a day, because that's all I need to generate the necessary FC level. Even less during the winter months. Then back to four hours in early Spring, then back to 8 hours again in summer, when I turn my solar heater back on.

Other folks might have dirty trees and so must skim all day long. Their pump's runtime is governed by their skimming requirement, and so they dial down their SWG output setting to get the optimum FC level for their pool.

Still others like to run their pump 24/7, and so they can schedule their solar heater at any time during the day, and dial down their SWG, because it's producing day and night.

Every pool is different, with lots of variables. As you learn your pool and dial in the scheduling of all your pumps and features, one function will emerge as the one that needs the most runtime. It might be your SWG, or it might be your solar, or it might be a water feature. Whatever. Then you schedule and adjust all the other operations within that runtime. Whew! But then fall comes along, and then winter, and all those features, including which one was determining the overall runtime, must be readjusted for the current season.

Sorry if I blasted you there. It's less daunting than it sounds. It just takes a while to figure it all out, sometimes a few sets of seasons. No worries, as long as make keeping your chemical levels correct, the rest is pretty forgiving. Take notes. Keep track of what works and what doesn't, so that you don't have to start from scratch every year.

Pardon the interruption, resume your exploration of chemistry with Jim, and figure out the rest after that.

 

[Dirk]

BTW, if you use your Star Wars blaster to heat your pool, it'll go much faster. Maybe you have been. That might explain why you don't have any algae, and why you don't need to run your SWG as much as the rest of us do!

PS. Welcome to TFP! Glad you found us...

 

[ebot]

I'd totally be up for algae eradication via laser gun!!! Pew, pew.....pew, pew...
I'd start my own pool service co!

Well, i'll defnitely run it enough to avoid any green, but can you all offer guidance on these items for my plan of attack?
Like, do i need to start edge pump 30min before spillway pump (or at least a few min before)?
Can i just run edge pump and spillway pump and keep what ScreenLogic app calls "Cleaner" (which i think is the vacuum's hose), and "Pool" off? (I think whenever i run Spillway, Pool automatically comes on though...but what if i run Pool without anything else? what's that doing?...I'm starting to think it only has a separate button in case you want to heat the pool.

DRAFT PUMP SETTINGS:
Edge pump 1600 RPM & Spillway pump 1600 RPM (SCG connects to this one and seems to need at least 1600 RPM to work): Run both enough hrs every day to get adequate chorline levels/no green...start edge pump 30min?? before spillway pump to ensure (infinity) edge basin isn't over-filled and pool is overflowing back into infinity edge.
Cleaner (Vevor vacuum thing): Run at 2800 RPM enough hrs Saturdays & Sundays to get out some debris, decrease risk of higher phosphates/green (Vacuum seems to need around 2500-2800 to work).

Once pumps are figured out or mostly figured out, what order for chemistry balancing (I re-thought this)?
My guess is:
1 pH...before chlorine balancing as chlorine needs the right pH level to work right.
2 Alkalinity...before chlorine balancing as chlorine needs the right Alk level to work right.
3 Phosphates...before chlorine balancing as phosphates feed algae so you'd need less chlorine if you get phosphates down to goal first
4 CYA...before chlorine balancing as chlorine needs the right CYA level to bond with it so it doesn't immediately evaporate from heat/UV.
5 Chlorine
6 Ca Hardness...need this at goal so the SWG doesn't calcify as quick/less cleaning/improves equipement lifespan/less risk of pool surface scaling.

THANKS AGAIN TEAM TFP!!

 

[Dirk]

Let's see what @Jimrahbe says about the pump scheduling. I only have one pump, no spa, no water features, so all that programming is beyond my experience.

Did you go through Pool Care Basics as Jim suggested? Until he returns to help you with your chemistry, I can give you a shortish version (your order of questions, not the task order):

1. You can dose for pH and FC within 15 minutes of each other. Don't worry about how they effect each other. Just get the levels of each to target. Do that now to avoid an algae bloom.
2. Don't fret about TA for now.
3. Forget about phosphates. They don't matter in a properly sanitized pool. Phosphate control is a huge profit center for pool stores.
4. CYA must be brought to the recommended level immediately (but see #6 first).
5. CYA level determines FC level, but you don't wait. Keep your FC level appropriate, or above, for your current CYA level, to eliminate the risk of getting an algae bloom. As you bring your CYA up, bring your FC level up to match. If in doubt, FC can be high for now, to play it safe. You'd only be "wasting" a few sheckels on chlorine, the water would still be swimmable and safe.
6. Your calcium is on the high side, but still within recommended range. You could leave it alone, and learn about CSI. Adjusting your CSI will keep your SWG happy. When you cannot maintain the desired CSI (as your CH continues to rise), then you can think about exchanging water to reduce your CH at that point. If you want to do that now, then that would come before adding CYA, because you'd just be dumping your new CYA along with the water.

When exchanging water, your city's utility rate policies might come into play. Some water companies base your sewer charges on water consumption, so there is usually a best time of year to replace pool water (typically in the winter). Check with your local water company to strategize when an exchange would be most cost effective.

Many of us that live in hard-water land top off our pools with soft water to replace water lost to evaporation. It's your hard water and evaporation that is driving your CH up. Every time you replace lost water with your city's water, your pumping more CH into your pool (and it doesn't evaporate). So we fill our pools with CH-free soft water to minimize this problem. I went about five years before I had to exchange out some of my water. And I didn't have to exchange much. And between that and religious maintenance of my CSI, I haven't had to clean my SWG for years. Last time I checked it, there was a single spot of calcium build up on one of the plates, about the size of a lady bug. It flicked off when I rubbed it with a stick.

If you have a softener, consider plumbing it to whatever you're filling your pool with. If you don't have a softener, consider one. Not only for your pool CH issues, but for the longevity of everything in your house that has water running through it (fixtures, appliances, tub and shower stalls, toilets, etc). Some cities have outlawed softeners, so ask about that when you call your water company about sewer rates.

 

[ebot]

Here's the latest chemistry. I already added about 1/2 gal muriatic acid. Whatcha think?

 

[jkehoe]

Here's the latest chemistry. I already added about 1/2 gal muriatic acid. Whatcha think?

I for one would purchase a good home test kit and not rely on pool store chemistry.

In AZ I have to use a lot of muriatic acid to drive the pH down to around 7 then aerate until pH rises then recheck my alkalinity and repeat until it is down.

With those calcium levels I suspect your alkalinity is higher than the pool store is reading on their machine. Once you find out what your true chemistry is you can compare to the pool store results if you decide to use them. I like to have the pool store run mine regularly that way if I run out of reagents or have old ones I have some idea of where I should be. The TFP app is also great for tracking your long term maintenance. I added borates to my pool about 2yrs ago due to high alkalinity and hard water (tap is over 400ppm) and my calcium buildup on tile and salt cell is now almost zero. Prior to that I had to clean my salt cell about every 45 days.

Also if you are not running your salt cell 24hrs I would recommend checking you Chlorine level right before is shuts off and right before it turns on. If you run your pump on a lower speed and continuously chlorinate you can keep lower chlorine levels and still have clean water. When running shorter cycles you often run at higher chlorine levels and then it drops over time. While that might work it can be more irritating to swim when levels are high. There are also a lot of people that claim it is much less stress on you pump to run it 24/7 (the start stop cycles increase wear and rapid speed at priming strains your plumbing). With most VSP pumps your can have a salt cell work at around 1200rpm which may only use 200watts of power vs 2500 may be close to 1000watts (lower speed longer cycles may be cheaper or at least break even).

 

[kimkats]

can compare to the pool store results

Here at TFP we have "tested" many pool stores over time. What we found is that most, not all, pool stores tests are off/wrong. The reasons are many from not calibrating their test machine to not cleaning or rinsing out the test tubes between tests. As such we suggest using your own test kit such as the Taylor 2006 or the TF-100.

When running shorter cycles you often run at higher chlorine levels and then it drops over time. While that might work it can be more irritating to swim when levels are high.

TFP has found that the FC/CYA ratio is what is most important to keep the water comfortable for swimmers. We have found that running the FC up the SLAM level for the CYA does not cause any discomfort. Here is the chart for reference:
SLAM Level chart


Daily use chart:


As for how much to run your pump and SWG that is up to each pool owner. It should be run long enough to keep the surface of the pool clean as well as long enough to have your FC levels at the recommended levels.

 

[ebot]

Hey TFP Team.
I'm still having trouble with just the basics of basics!!
This low chlorine is actually higher than it was...my best guess is I had the pentair VSP running too slow to trigger the SCG to produce chlorine (even though the lights were definitely showing 5 greens!). I ran it a while at 1800rpm but kept getting no yellow at all on the chem test. Past few days ran it 2400 and now. Seeing some signs of life there. pH keeps creeping back up though. I got it down to 7.6ish a while back...seems to take about 1/2gal muriatic acid to get it down 1/10-2/10...but this is like the 5th time it quickly crept back up to 8's+.
Total Alk is a perfect 100ppm/10 drops...that never seems to be off target.
Of the causes of high pH I read about the ones that seem possible are:
--SCG electrolysis process or just running too long. Kinda doubt it though because we run it maybe 80-85hrs/week which seems less than a lot of folks here...and chlorine running low as noted above anyway of course (thinking due to rpms were too low prior).
--Hard water. Yeah maybe. Ca hard ess runs a bit high sometimes was 480s Leslie's a few months ago. Been using a descaler product here and there last couple of months some but maybe need much more?
--Organic compounds. We get a handful of palm leaves or sticks in there and I see a few most days but my son cleans it out with the net every Sunday so figure we're kinda average here.
--Dirt...I feel some when I'm in there but pretty minimal I'd say.

 

[PoolStored]

TA is the cause of pH rise. SWG is pH neutral.

To lower TA, when you lower pH, lower it to 7.4. Then let it rise to 8.0. Repeat until TA is 60-80. Over time, with muriatic additions, TA will come down.

When TA is 60-80, your pH should be fairly stable 7.8-8.0...stop lowering it to 7.4 and only lower to 7.8 when it gets to 8.0. Should be more stable...

PH TA Relationship - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Dirk]

When TA is 60-80, your pH should be fairly stable 7.8-8.0...stop lowering it to 7.4 and only lower to 7.8 when it gets to 8.0. Should be more stable...

^^^ This! pH rise is not linear. You'll find (you are finding), the more you force it down, the faster it'll come back up. For example, let's say it takes two days to go from 7.8 to 8.0. So you'd think 7.6 to 8.0 should take four days. But it'll be more like three days. 7.4 to 8.0 won't last you six days, it'll pop back up even faster, maybe in four days, or less. Etc.

This will hold true even after you get your TA down, though it'll take longer to rise.

Here in Central CA, my pool's pH never stabilized (on its own). It's always on the rise. It's not my "new plaster" any more, nor is it my SWG. My TA is usually 50-60, but I still need to add acid regularly. It's my city's TA (hard water). So I automated acid dispensing, and I let a machine take care of it. Because it dispenses a little every hour, all day long, my pH is rock solid stable, and rises minimally, because the machine is constantly adjusting it down just a little, all the time. So I never have to spike it down to get it to last a few days.

I don't add acid based only on TA or pH test results alone, I monitor my CSI, and add acid to keep my CSI at exactly -0.3. That's what's best for the longevity of my plaster-based finish, and best for the plates inside my SWG. Read up on CSI to get an idea where your pH sweet-spot should be. And if that means adding acid every day or two, that's what it's going to be.

Calcium Saturation Index (CSI)

How is CSI calculated? Very simple – use our PoolMath tool. To ensure long plaster life and save money, click here to learn more.

www.troublefreepool.com

I touched on CSI in an earlier post, but didn't want to inundated you. It's all a learning curve, so digest it at your own pace. But just to give you a reference point, I battled FC and pH and TA and CH for years, just like you are, until I finally found what worked: an SWG, an acid dispensing system and topping off evaporation with water from my water softener. I added each system over time, but now my pool maintenance is so easy. I test once a week, and most weeks I could have skipped it. All my chemicals are almost always dead-on, and I spend about 5-10 minutes a week on pool chores. I adjust settings a few times a year (as the weather changes), and exchange a few hundred gallons once a year to keep my CH in check. That and cleaning my filters once a year and tha, tha, that's all!

For future reference, I have an IC40, too, and my acid dispensing gizmo is a Pentair IntellipH. The IpH piggy-backs off of my IC. It uses the IC's power supply, and monitors its flow switch and temperature sensor, and even shuts down the IC's chlorine production while dispensing acid (so the two don't mix in the plumbing on the way to the pool). Pentair did an excellent job engineering the two to work together. The IntellipH does have a known bug, which is somewhat easily corrected, and once past that hurdle the two together work incredibly well. If you ever tire of adding acid, we can walk you through what's involved in automating that.

IntellipH® pH Chemical Controller

IntellipH Controller is a safe and convenient way to regulate a swimming pool's ph level. It automatically dispenses muriatic acid into the pool to eliminate fluctations in the pH level. IntellpH is the perfect companion for the IntelliChlor salt chlorine generator.

www.pentair.com

 

[ebot]

Wow you guys are blowing my mind!!!
I've read a pretty good amount about balancing pool chemistry...many hours at least.. and I don't recall ever reading anything like this!
Thanks so much!
Our Alk seems to always be right around 100ppm and Calc Hardness was only up a bit at 485 Leslie's last time but I guess it's not much to hang your hat on if your pH and chlorine are all screwy. Will keep at it.
That IntellipH sounds pretty cool and it looks like maybe you could pick one up for only like $300 if you get a good deal. Muriatic acid from Home Depot costs about $8/gallon, so we'll see. Maybe we'll only need like 1 gal/week for a few weeks and things will stabilize.
Thanks again.

 

[Dirk]

Wow you guys are blowing my mind!!!
I've read a pretty good amount about balancing pool chemistry...many hours at least.. and I don't recall ever reading anything like this!
Thanks so much!
Our Alk seems to always be right around 100ppm and Calc Hardness was only up a bit at 485 Leslie's last time but I guess it's not much to hang your hat on if your pH and chlorine are all screwy. Will keep at it.
That IntellipH sounds pretty cool and it looks like maybe you could pick one up for only like $300 if you get a good deal. Muriatic acid from Home Depot costs about $8/gallon, so we'll see. Maybe we'll only need like 1 gal/week for a few weeks and things will stabilize.
Thanks again.

One strategy is wait some period of time, even a year or more, to see if pH will eventually stabilize enough to negate the need for acid automation. I bought mine before that happened, not knowing if it ever would. It never did stabilize, so my hunch paid off. But there is no rush to add complexities to your system, especially if they eventually will not be needed.

Be aware that Pentair sells just the acid hopper (the plastic tank and the acid pump), without the IntellipH controller. That tank is a component of one of their other automation solutions, and it looks virtually identical to the IntellipH tank. And it's usually around $300. But the entire IntellipH system is usually about 6 or 7 bills. I'm not saying you didn't find a great deal on the entire system, but I'm gonna guess you didn't. Either way, run your links by us before you buy anything, and we'll make sure you're getting what you think you're getting.

There is also an alternate way to automate acid dispensing (several, actually), that don't require the IntellipH controller. There are a few members here that run like that. What is controlling all your pumps and gizmos? Do you have a pool automation system? Like EasyTouch or IntelliCenter? They can be used to control acid dispensing with just that $300 tank.

Anywho, jumping the gun a bit. Keep up with your studying, and work on getting your TA down. See what happens to the pH-rise after doing so, and then go from there.

 

[ebot]

Working on this. Quick tangent. Ever try this "Spa Time pH down" granules from Home Depot? I'm not sure it's be any cheaper than just the gallon or so of muriatic acid that usually gets us back in range for pH but maybe. It says it's for spas though ... doesn't mention 30,000 gallon pools in the directions.
Oh and do you think it matters how I pour the muriatic acid? I usually get the pumps flowing and then reach as far as I can away from the edge and pour it into the deep end.

 

[Dirk]

Personally, I wouldn't use anything but muriatic acid. That said, I wouldn't think a fancy-looking tube of something would be as cost effective as a generic-looking plastic gallon of Muriatic acid, economy of scale and all.

Dispensing: turn on your pump, select a return that is closest to the deepest part of your pool, and pour the acid into the current of the return, in about a 1/4" stream. No need to reach out, let the jet action of the return do the work of broadcasting the acid. Let the pump run for at least a half hour after dispensing, longer is better.

 

[Dirk]

If I may...

If you've decided to adopt TFP methods, I would recommend you not try to reinvent them. When we say "use Muriatic acid to lower pH," there is all kinds of science and real-world experience behind that advice. If other types of pH-adjusting products were better for the job, not only would we know about them, but we'd be telling you to use those instead. Stick with the plan if you want to be successful.

Same goes for liquid chlorine. There are lots of products that will sanitize your pool and others that will oxidize the nasties that get into your water. But we've selected liquid chlorine (or an SWG) as the very best, most cost-effective way to do both. Again, science and the experience of 100s of thousands of users over many, many years have already figured all this out.

Put your effort and brain power into learning what we teach, and stick to that, and only that. Give our method an honest try. If after a year or so it's not working, then feel free to try something else. But if you continue to second guess what we're advising you to do, or try and find some other "better" or cheaper way, then you'll only fail at the TFP method. And that'd be a shame, because time and time again we have proven that we teach the very best, most cost-effective method of pool water maintenance. And that's a fact.