Initial Pentair pump settings for our pool with spa, infinity edge, waterfall, and cleaner...and understanding labels in ScreenLogic app.

[ebot]

Wow your labels are a HUGE help!
Calcium Harness:
OK, I had to read it like 5 times but I pretty well followed your steps and that is the BFP feeding the auto-fill valve. I had enough to test the tap off the BFP...see attached. I think it's turning bluish by 14 drops. I've been posting pix to see what you guys think of the colors, but will stick with DW (darling wife) double checking me and explain to her that what we're looking for is the first visible color change towards blue/purple/periwinkle/whatever from the pink/red initial color.
I ordered a smart stir. SUPER excited for that!!! 70+ drops for the pool water is a lot of swirling, slow, and awkward adding drops. More reagent on the way as well.
So, my thinking is, we may still be able to hit a decent CSI even with pool CH in the 700's, but it's still bad for the pumps/SWG long term, right? And if the tap is only 140ppm, then that's good news that we aren't really needing a water softener system, but right now at least, we're probably looking at a decent size drain/replace of the pool, which is $100's here. Is my thinking right on this? We haven't drained the pool since it was built 2017, other than maybe months ago I drained about 9 inches off to balance the salt level.
I called our water company today too. No special rates for pool fills any time of year. 36k gallons will cost us additional $535.
Pump questions:
Lotsa pix attached. Thanks for revisiting pumps as I was reflecting how that was my post's original question!
I'm keeping a log now actually to try to figure out what order the pumps should be powered on, and under what circumstances I might need to prime them or release a lot of air pressure from the top.
Here's what I THINK I know so far.
Priming/releasing air from the top of the filters seems to be needed after I leave them off for more than a day, which doesn't sound like I should be doing anyway, so hopefully that's licked.
Powering on seems best to do Edge pump for maybe 5min first. If I run the system every day it doesn't seem to get too low, which can be a much longer wait, and may need priming.
Then the Spa needs to be on a minute or so to allow the pool pump to turn on without priming, and both seem to need to be on for the pool pump to function.
Pump labels:
Some labels are different between the app and the EasyTouch panel and the physical pumps I see.
Screenologic Connect app shows:
"FEATURES" list: Waterfall, Spillway, Jets, Cleaner (no Spa).
"PUMPS" list: Pool, Spa, Jets, Spillway, Cleaner, "Pool or spa heater active" and "Solar active" (no Waterfall)
Both screens list Edge pump and Spillway and Cleaner so at least those 3 are consistent.
Edge seems to suck water from the bottom of the infinity edge well and pump it into the main pool if the float in there is in the up position (water level above it). Edge pump won't turn on if the float is in down position (water level below it) and is adding water to the infinity edge well.
Spillway seems to pump water into the main too through the same openings as the Edge pump, but keeps going until the main pool water level rises and starts spilling over into the infinity edge well....once it gets there, Edge pump can shut down.
Jets seem to be the spa jets, which I don't think are needed to balance chemistry, right? Is it just for use when you're enjoying the spa?
Cleaner seems to be the suction at the connection for the Vevor vacuum we use. If so, that seems to need 2600+ rpm to function. But can I run it at 2600 and everything else at 1200-1600? I'm thinking no. If not, I guess I could just do the vaccuum every Saturday or something with everything going 2600.
Pool. I guess since this pump runs the spillway, spa, and cleaner, it automatically is on if I toggle on any of those, and this is why I don't have a separate "Pool" toggle in "Features" to turn it on? But why are their separate rpm pump settings for Pool, Spillway, Spa, Cleaner then? Don't they all have to be the same since they're all running off one "pool" pump? Will it just default to the one running at the highest rpm?
Solar Active: I believe this is running off the main "Pool" pump too. I assume I could run it at any speed, but it would probably heat faster if I ran it fast.
Spa heat: If I want to run the Spa to allow the Spillway and/or Cleaner to run off of the "Pool" pump, but don't want to heat it, could I just leave the temp setting well below current temp to be sure the gas or solar heat don't kick on? That seems to be the case.
Draft pump settings:
Edge pump 1600 RPM & Spillway pump 1600 RPM (SCG connects to this one and seems to need at least 1600 RPM to work): Run both 3hrs every day...start edge pump 30min before spillway pump to ensure (infinity) edge basin isn't over-filled and pool is overflowing back into infinity edge.
Cleaner (Vevor vacuum thing): Run at 2800 RPM 3 hrs Saturdays & Sundays (Vacuum seems to need around 2500-2800 to work).

(my Signature got too long so I took out the product numbers: Pentair Clean & Clear Plus catridge filters Model CCP420 P/N 160301 P/N 178557; and vacuum specs: VEVOR Pool Vacuum Model 1815BX-80CM Min Pump≥0.5HP, Flow≥73L/min)

 

[ebot]

More app screenshots

 

[mknauss]

When testing CH, use 10 ml of pool water. 10 drops R0010, a few drops of R0011L, and then each drop of R0012 is 25 ppm CH.

 

[Dirk]

Wow your labels are a HUGE help!
Calcium Harness:
OK, I had to read it like 5 times but I pretty well followed your steps and that is the BFP feeding the auto-fill valve. I had enough to test the tap off the BFP...see attached. I think it's turning bluish by 14 drops. I've been posting pix to see what you guys think of the colors, but will stick with DW (darling wife) double checking me and explain to her that what we're looking for is the first visible color change towards blue/purple/periwinkle/whatever from the pink/red initial color.

That's not correct. The drop count stops when the color forms fully blue, not any sort of purple. This one is a fully-formed blue:

I ordered a smart stir. SUPER excited for that!!! 70+ drops for the pool water is a lot of swirling, slow, and awkward adding drops. More reagent on the way as well.

Good job. You're going to love it. And your numbers will likely change, as the SpeedStir makes your testing more accurate.

So, my thinking is, we may still be able to hit a decent CSI even with pool CH in the 700's, but it's still bad for the pumps/SWG long term, right?

Yes, you can manage a CH of 700 by manipulating pH to bring your CSI to target (-0.3 to 0.0). That's not necessarily bad for your equipment or pool, but it is out of TFP range. Personally, I strive to keep all my numbers dead-center of TFP range. That's just me. It's not necessary, but I can, so I do.

And if the tap is only 140ppm, then that's good news that we aren't really needing a water softener system,

You have hard water. And keep in mind you stopped that fill water test before the blue developed, so you likely have higher fill CH than 140, perhaps quite a bit higher.
Depending on which AI google-bot you believe:

That's enough to chew away at your appliances and fixtures. Mine was about 130 before softener, and that was enough to mess with the shower walls and glass and toilets and fixtures.

More importantly, remember, it's not so much about the fill CH number. It's about water exchange. In SD, you're not getting a lot of rain, so the pool water never really turns over, but you are getting a lot of sun and evaporation. That CH-140 gets pumped into your pool every time the auto-fill kicks on, which is probably often. And that 140 never leaves your pool, it just accumulates.

I have near-zero CH in my pool fill water, and yet I still get CH-rise, and have to exchange water every few years. That's WITH a softener. Based on the needs of your house and pool, I'd say you're a good candidate for a softener.

Also note that the CH in a city's water supply can vary. For example, where I live, my city sometimes grabs water from a reservoir, and sometimes from ground wells, and sometimes has to mix the two. So my CH fill is all over the place, and changes by the season. You might ask your water company if that's the case in your city. Maybe you sometimes have 140, other times it's lower, or higher.

but right now at least, we're probably looking at a decent size drain/replace of the pool, which is $100's here. Is my thinking right on this? We haven't drained the pool since it was built 2017, other than maybe months ago I drained about 9 inches off to balance the salt level.

As I mentioned, I would do whatever it takes to keep all my levels near the center of TFP ranges, including exchanging water to do so. But again, that's just me and how I like to run my pool. Others here, who battle high CH, will let their CH accumulate as high as they can still maintain their target CSI, and only exchange when they finally cannot.

I called our water company today too. No special rates for pool fills any time of year. 36k gallons will cost us additional $535.

We don't know your actual numbers yet, but for example: if you wanted to hit mid-TFP CH range, which is 450, and you currently have a CH of 800 and a fill CH of 140, you would only need to exchange 53% of your water, NOT all of it. So it'd be more like $250 to do that exchange.

Once you get your SpeedStir, the new reagents, and your wife's undivided attention, we'll get better numbers for a more accurate prediction.

But note, when I exchange, I re-fill from my softener, so I don't have to exchange as much water, because I'm refilling with "CH-free" water.

Pump questions:
Lotsa pix attached. Thanks for revisiting pumps as I was reflecting how that was my post's original question!
I'm keeping a log now actually to try to figure out what order the pumps should be powered on, and under what circumstances I might need to prime them or release a lot of air pressure from the top.
Here's what I THINK I know so far.
Priming/releasing air from the top of the filters seems to be needed after I leave them off for more than a day, which doesn't sound like I should be doing anyway, so hopefully that's licked.
Powering on seems best to do Edge pump for maybe 5min first. If I run the system every day it doesn't seem to get too low, which can be a much longer wait, and may need priming.
Then the Spa needs to be on a minute or so to allow the pool pump to turn on without priming, and both seem to need to be on for the pool pump to function.
Pump labels:
Some labels are different between the app and the EasyTouch panel and the physical pumps I see.
Screenologic Connect app shows:
"FEATURES" list: Waterfall, Spillway, Jets, Cleaner (no Spa).
"PUMPS" list: Pool, Spa, Jets, Spillway, Cleaner, "Pool or spa heater active" and "Solar active" (no Waterfall)
Both screens list Edge pump and Spillway and Cleaner so at least those 3 are consistent.
Edge seems to suck water from the bottom of the infinity edge well and pump it into the main pool if the float in there is in the up position (water level above it). Edge pump won't turn on if the float is in down position (water level below it) and is adding water to the infinity edge well.
Spillway seems to pump water into the main too through the same openings as the Edge pump, but keeps going until the main pool water level rises and starts spilling over into the infinity edge well....once it gets there, Edge pump can shut down.
Jets seem to be the spa jets, which I don't think are needed to balance chemistry, right? Is it just for use when you're enjoying the spa?
Cleaner seems to be the suction at the connection for the Vevor vacuum we use. If so, that seems to need 2600+ rpm to function. But can I run it at 2600 and everything else at 1200-1600? I'm thinking no. If not, I guess I could just do the vaccuum every Saturday or something with everything going 2600.
Pool. I guess since this pump runs the spillway, spa, and cleaner, it automatically is on if I toggle on any of those, and this is why I don't have a separate "Pool" toggle in "Features" to turn it on? But why are their separate rpm pump settings for Pool, Spillway, Spa, Cleaner then? Don't they all have to be the same since they're all running off one "pool" pump? Will it just default to the one running at the highest rpm?
Solar Active: I believe this is running off the main "Pool" pump too. I assume I could run it at any speed, but it would probably heat faster if I ran it fast.
Spa heat: If I want to run the Spa to allow the Spillway and/or Cleaner to run off of the "Pool" pump, but don't want to heat it, could I just leave the temp setting well below current temp to be sure the gas or solar heat don't kick on? That seems to be the case.
Draft pump settings:
Edge pump 1600 RPM & Spillway pump 1600 RPM (SCG connects to this one and seems to need at least 1600 RPM to work): Run both 3hrs every day...start edge pump 30min before spillway pump to ensure (infinity) edge basin isn't over-filled and pool is overflowing back into infinity edge.
Cleaner (Vevor vacuum thing): Run at 2800 RPM 3 hrs Saturdays & Sundays (Vacuum seems to need around 2500-2800 to work).

(my Signature got too long so I took out the product numbers: Pentair Clean & Clear Plus catridge filters Model CCP420 P/N 160301 P/N 178557; and vacuum specs: VEVOR Pool Vacuum Model 1815BX-80CM Min Pump≥0.5HP, Flow≥73L/min)

I'll leave all the pump stuff to @Jimrahbe.

Look to my signature, which is near-maxed, for a format that squeezes a lot of info into the character limit.

 

[ebot]

When testing CH, use 10 ml of pool water. 10 drops R0010, a few drops of R0011L, and then each drop of R0012 is 25 ppm CH.

That should save a lot of reagent thanks! But if it's saying use 25ml and you're saying use 40% of that, shouldn't the reagents also be 40%, so 20x.6=12 drops R0010, and 5x.6=3 drops R0010?

 

[Dirk]

Oops, just noticed that your pic of your CH test result had more than one shot. I'd say your fill CH is 150.

 

[Dirk]

The Taylor test instruction explain how to adjust the reagent amounts for each test. Read carefully! (After the asterisk.)

 

[ebot]

Testing:
OK will retest with smarstir, wife, etc for sure, but in the photos above doesn't it look like 14 did show the full color change (that's why i started the photos there)...and I don't see a difference as more drops added. In the "tap by BFV" photos, which do you think is the true level?
Tap water:
I called and they publish hardness here. I'm waiting for a call back to confirm but the agent said they probably could use any of the 3 plants listed to serve our area, so the hardness could range anywhere from 44 to 316 if that's the case.
Water Softener system:
I started shopping these a bit to get an idea as it's looking like we ought to consider one...water bill savings, appliances/pumps last longer, resale value, less glass spots, silkier hair & skin LOL. I'm not sure if we should try and add one to the pool auto-fill system (seems like that would save us the most on water bills, but likely more expensive install). Or get it for the house since it'd help with all the scaling, and then just use house water to backfill the pool when it's needed. Looks like we do have one of those loops (not sure why it's up in the ceiling) so install should be easier(?)...although it looks like that's probably after our tankless heater. These seem like options that are the right size (32-40k grains) $350 $540 $550 Would love your input on that.

 

[ebot]

The Taylor test instruction explain how to adjust the reagent amounts for each test. Read carefully! (After the asterisk.)

View attachment 616776

Odd, mine doesn't say that last part. I've been doing the 1st way right for sure though.

 

[ebot]

Oops, just noticed that your pic of your CH test result had more than one shot. I'd say your fill CH is 150.

Oh great! Even my eyes can see that. I have more trouble with red/green. Thanks

 

[Dirk]

Oh great! Even my eyes can see that. I have more trouble with red/green. Thanks

It was close between 14 and 15, best to err on the side of caution (always round up), so I called it 15 (150ppm).

 

[Dirk]

Tap water:
I called and they publish hardness here. I'm waiting for a call back to confirm but the agent said they probably could use any of the 3 plants listed to serve our area, so the hardness could range anywhere from 44 to 316 if that's the case.

Yep, that's what I warned about. Is what it is. But a softener would solve for that. If you want to make a study of it, you can set up a second "pool" in Pool Math and call it "City Water." Then test your fill water several times a year and record the results in the "City Water" data set. It's a way to keep track of what the city is doing, and to look for trends. You might end up finding a month or two that is best for water exchange, and be able to avoid the worst months. Pool Math can track more then one pool, but a second "pool" doesn't have to be a pool at all.

Water Softener system:
I started shopping these a bit to get an idea as it's looking like we ought to consider one...water bill savings, appliances/pumps last longer, resale value, less glass spots, silkier hair & skin LOL. I'm not sure if we should try and add one to the pool auto-fill system (seems like that would save us the most on water bills, but likely more expensive install). Or get it for the house since it'd help with all the scaling, and then just use house water to backfill the pool when it's needed. Looks like we do have one of those loops (not sure why it's up in the ceiling) so install should be easier(?)...although it looks like that's probably after our tankless heater. These seem like options that are the right size (32-40k grains) $350 $540 $550 Would love your input on that.

I think a softener can pay for itself, given all the problems it can solve. The benefits it provides is a bonus. I certainly will buy another onen when this one wears out. But I don't know much about them. You might start a dedicated thread about which to buy, and see what you get opinion-wise. We pretty much hijacked your original thread here, so no one that might have a water softener opinion is going to find your questions about one way down in this thread.

That loop in the ceiling is odd. Never seen that. It looks more like a water heater loop. You (or a plumber) might need to cut it apart to see what it actually is. If it is the soft water circuit, that would certainly simplify the installation. That will cover the house. But plumbing soft water to the pool might not be as bad as you think. In this pic:

what is behind that exterior wall? Is there a bathroom sink by any chance? Or a toilet? Or a kitchen or laundry room? Or are any of those things close to your pool pad? It would be a relatively simple plumbing job to start from the inside, open up some sheetrock where the plumbing stops are (ideally under a sink or behind a washer) tap into an existing cold-water plumbing line (it'll be the soft water circuit), then punch it outside through the stucco. Then connect that to your auto-fill. You could DIY (I did), or a plumber could knock that out in less than an hour. If you're lucky enough to have a sink or washing machine for the tap, then the sheetrock repair doesn't have to be perfect, no one will ever see it.

 

[Dirk]

Oops, almost forgot. A softener needs a drain. It uses that drain when it purges all the spent stuff (during a regeneration cycle). That's another reason that loop in the ceiling doesn't seem like an ideal water softener loop. You might have to do some sleuthing, or have a plumber do it, to figure out what's what. If you don't actually have a soft water circuit in your house, then the installation gets significantly more complicated, because you have to have soft water inside, and un-softened water for irrigation and exterior hose bibs.

Do you see a drain stub out anywhere near that ceiling loop, closer to the floor? They are typically 1.5" or 2" ABS (black) with a cap sealing it off.

 

[ebot]

Yep, that's what I warned about. Is what it is. But a softener would solve for that. If you want to make a study of it, you can set up a second "pool" in Pool Math and call it "City Water." Then test your fill water several times a year and record the results in the "City Water" data set. It's a way to keep track of what the city is doing, and to look for trends. You might end up finding a month or two that is best for water exchange, and be able to avoid the worst months. Pool Math can track more then one pool, but a second "pool" doesn't have to be a pool at all.


I think a softener can pay for itself, given all the problems it can solve. The benefits it provides is a bonus. I certainly will buy another onen when this one wears out. But I don't know much about them. You might start a dedicated thread about which to buy, and see what you get opinion-wise. We pretty much hijacked your original thread here, so no one that might have a water softener opinion is going to find your questions about one way down in this thread.

That loop in the ceiling is odd. Never seen that. It looks more like a water heater loop. You (or a plumber) might need to cut it apart to see what it actually is. If it is the soft water circuit, that would certainly simplify the installation. That will cover the house. But plumbing soft water to the pool might not be as bad as you think. In this pic:
View attachment 616812
what is behind that exterior wall? Is there a bathroom sink by any chance? Or a toilet? Or a kitchen or laundry room? Or are any of those things close to your pool pad? It would be a relatively simple plumbing job to start from the inside, open up some sheetrock where the plumbing stops are (ideally under a sink or behind a washer) tap into an existing cold-water plumbing line (it'll be the soft water circuit), then punch it outside through the stucco. Then connect that to your auto-fill. You could DIY (I did), or a plumber could knock that out in less than an hour. If you're lucky enough to have a sink or washing machine for the tap, then the sheetrock repair doesn't have to be perfect, no one will ever see it.

There's a full bathroom on the other side of that wall. Maybe that original hose bib I circled could work or there's the water going to the tankless water heater nearby, or around on the other side we have an outdoor sink.
I did find some of the old threads using the "On the go" RV water softener hack for the pool. Think that could work for us?

 

[ebot]

Oops, almost forgot. A softener needs a drain. It uses that drain when it purges all the spent stuff (during a regeneration cycle). That's another reason that loop in the ceiling doesn't seem like an ideal water softener loop. You might have to do some sleuthing, or have a plumber do it, to figure out what's what. If you don't actually have a soft water circuit in your house, then the installation gets significantly more complicated, because you have to have soft water inside, and un-softened water for irrigation and exterior hose bibs.

Do you see a drain stub out anywhere near that ceiling loop, closer to the floor? They are typically 1.5" or 2" ABS (black) with a cap sealing it off.

I think I know what you mean but no can't find one anywhere in the garage, but not too far away on the other side of that garage wall is our laundry room with sink and washer drains. We'll start getting a couple of estimates (I can do some basic DIY but not good with plumbing), so they'll probably find out more when they take a look. Our neighbor has some sort of super-tricked out mega water filtration system he was showing off a while back that I think he installed himself...will ask his thoughts too.
Here's an interesting option. I was seeing ballpark estimates >$600 though...a bit more than the water bill would be but we'd get CH to near zero. I could see how this is a viable business around here.

 

[Dirk]

Where there's a will, there's a way!

Regarding neighbor's water system: was his house built at the same time, by the same builder? Does he have that same plumbing loop in the ceiling? That could go a long way to figuring out your existing system if you have someone else next door, with the same house, that has figured all that out.

Regarding the RV softener, I wouldn't go that route. That unit's price is half way to a whole-house solution:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Whirlpool-44000-Grain-Water-Softener-System/3824565

Why have two softeners when one will do? I don't know anything about that RV solution, but in that same thread someone mentioned they're a pain and require manual regeneration. If that's true, I certainly would get tired of that right quick, especially if I was also feeding salt into a second one, inside, for the house.

I would go with one softener, capable of taking care of both house and pool. Just dump in a bag of salt once in a while, and it takes care of itself.

Is that the tankless heater on the outside of the house, right by your pool pad?! That solves that. If you do, in fact, have a soft water circuit, that water heater would surely be on it. You'd just need to tap into the line that is feeding the heater and run that a few feet over to the pool's auto-filler's BFP circuit. Super easy!

Regarding the drain for the softener in the garage, if you're sure you've searched everywhere (even behind that wall of junk that is just below the ceiling loop?), then you'd have to run a drain line to some existing drain. It sounds like you have a few that are close.

I think you've got the makings for a relatively easy install, assuming you actually have a soft water circuit separate from your exterior hose-bib and irrigation circuits. That's the first thing to determine, because that will definitely affect the bid. I would follow up with the neighbor, because if his house is identical to yours, he's going to have some answers for you.

 

[mknauss]

I have an RV softener. No softener for our home but wanted something for the pool. Do not have a drain nor will a dry sump work at the pool equipment pad. They are a pain. But they help.

 

[ebot]

OK, been asking around and reading up on softeners. New 16oz bottle (LOL!) of R-0012 arrived today. Sadly, still waiting on my Smart Stir.
Also been working on pH and FC more, and got them decent so I retested everything. Here's what I think these read:
pH 7.5
TA 90
CH 33x25=825 (Tap: 6x25=150)
CYA 25?
Temp 72
Salt 3340
CSI 0.14

FC 3 (-TC 3=CC 0)
Do you agree with my readings from these photos?
(My daughter wanted me to point out to the TFP team again that the color for CH testing is not blue but is lavendar as evidenced by the fact that it matches the color of the lavender syrup they use in their with their bouge espresso maker)

 

[Dirk]

Tap 5 6 7: left is fully developed blue (can't read numbers)
32 33: 33
30 31: test not done
salt 3340: 3340 (I had trouble with digital salt readers, I really like the Taylor K-1766 salt test kit)*
ph: I can't read the numbers, it's the middle color**
TC: I don't ever test for, or care about TC, only FC and CC, and for that you need the Taylor FAS-DPD test kit
tap 5 6 7 8: 7
TA 7 8 9 10: 9

* Salt is not all that critical. Anywhere in the 3000s is good. Keeping your SWG happy (functioning) and not getting too much salt in the water are all that matters.
** Some of us use four drops instead of five for pH, the colors seem to match better

You're doing great!!!

Like the face of a small child when they first taste ice cream, I'm picture yours will be similar when you get your first "taste" of s SpeedStir!

 

[Dirk]

(My daughter wanted me to point out to the TFP team again that the color for CH testing is not blue but is lavendar as evidenced by the fact that it matches the color of the lavender syrup they use in their with their bouge espresso maker)

As someone who does color for a living...

The undeveloped colors you've been struggling with are lavender. The correct, fully developed, end-of-test color is blue, not lavender.

More importantly, the TFP forum has a vocabulary, and we stick to it to avoid confusion. This holds true whether the discussion is about plumbing, or pool finishes, or stains, or chemicals or test names or test results. So regardless of what your daughter thinks of it, we call the CH end-of-test color "blue," (even though there are dozens, if not hundreds, of different blues, etc)

Most importantly, don't let her put lavender syrup into your pool. It won't end well.