In-Ground Spa Retrofit... Heating Efficiency Awful, Costs $250-300 per month

[dg6464]

Hello TFP Forums,

Would love some help in figuring out the most efficient path forward... as I do not think this system is built as efficiently as it needs to be right now, since it is costing me $250-300 per month in electricity (in southern Canada, so warm summers, medium cold winters).

I have an in-ground spa/hot tub that is about 50-60' away from the equipment pad that is causing me headaches with an insane electric bill for the last 3 years or so - details below on my existing equipment pad (Pool and Spa, totally separate systems at the moment... but the equipment share the same concrete pad, so plumbing can be modified if necessary to share certain components if viable).

1) The Spa - In-Ground, surrounded in coping stone, but no spillover, totally separate system from the pool today

Dimensions: Top dimensions of 8ft2” x 6ft2” x 3’2” deep in middle (calculated as 3151 litres due to the bench all the way around, so call it 3000 litres)
Spa Pack/Heater: Gecko IN.XE-5-11-H5.5... Options: 1-2-k-k-D-60k-V2-GD1
Pump 1 (2-Stage): Century B2979 Serial: 32018J2, Type: CXCP, Frame: Y56J, HP 2.40 total): 2.0 / 0.25, SF 1.20, PH 1, RPM 3450 / 1725, Volts: 230V, Amps: 10.0 / 2.1
Pump 2 (1-Stage): Century Part 7-184949-22, Serial: 08819J2, 230V, Type: CX, 8.0/16.0 Amps, 3450 RPM, P56J Frame
Blower (Pump 3, Connected to Spa Pack)
Filter: Single Cartridge, Simple Filter (plumbed on Pump 1)
Jets: 20 total jets, split out to 2 main jet lines to the pad, split at the tub (1 main line for each pump), 50-60' lines to pad
Suction: 2 main suction lines to pad, 1 bottom suction to Pump2, 2 top suction to Pump1, 50-60' lines to pad

2) The Pool - In-Ground, surrounded by coping stone

Dimensions: 32' x 16' + steps with diving rock waterfall
Pump: Pentair IntelliFlo Variable Pump
Heater: Pentair MasterTemp 250
Filter: 4 Cartridge Pentair Filter
SWG: Pentair IC20
Control: IntelliCenter

The issue I believe here is the lines are 50-60ft in length, traveling underground from the pad to the tub, so the water is constantly losing heat from there, as well as the cover/usual places at the tub.

The cost is significant in the winter, but also the summer... so I think there was just poor planning of the contractor who did the backyard overhaul 3 years ago, inefficient design, pumps and spa pack used (at the time I did not know much about pool equipment, I had only used pre-fab hot tubs with sanitation/heating/pumping systems built in).

Trying to figure out if there is a way I can plumb the systems with manual/automated valves to leverage (at least a portion) of my existing equipment investment sometimes.
The initial goal would be to keep the spa at low temps always, circulating as minimally as possible (night time), then heating it up quickly when we use the spa (only every couple of weeks, or for parties).
The problem is right now I can't do that due to the Gecko IN.XE taking so long to heat the Spa temperature - even if I keep the Spa at 95F, if we want to get to 102F or so, it takes 5+ hours to do so.

My potential solution options (in order from least to most cost and intrusiveness):

1) Valve Retrofit - Retrofit some valves (manual or automatic) to leverage the MasterTemp 250 Pool Heater when I want to, so that I can keep the Spa at a much lower temp, and swap to gas heat when we periodically want to use it.
The goal would be being able to get it up to temp in a very short period of time. I can optionally (in non-winter months), likely turn off the IN.XE Gecko 5.5kW heater altogether and just use the pumps to circulate overnight, turning to the the Gas heater to heat when I need.

2) #1 Plus a Dedicated Circ Pump - add a dedicated circulation pump to replace Pump 1... as I believe circulation is also costing some $$$, especially during the winter when freeze protection kicks on every 20-30 mins and kicks both pumps and the blower on full blast. So a simple circ pump that can hit 25GPM minimum of a MasterTemp 250 if required.

3) #2 Plus Dedicated Small Gas Heater to replace Gecko IN.XE heater altogether - add a dedicated smaller MasterTemp 125 or other Gas Heater to the mix to fully replace the electric heater altogether, even for maintaining at the lower temp.

4) #3 Plus Dedicated Small IC15 Chlorinator to no longer have to use a floating Chorine puck dispenser, which is very inconsistent and annoying to keep up with in the winter.

5) Just swap everything for the Spa over to Pentair Intellicenter, use another Pentair Variable Pump, MasterTemp 125 Heater, IC15 Chlorinator and sell/forget the Spa Pack and existing pumps.

Any guidance you can provide would be appreciated... this of course could be a gradual progression - I'm just trying to figure out the most efficient path forward, whilst doing proper planning for the winter months... as I am sure some of the equipment is not meant to run in the colder months, etc.

Thanks in advance - apologies for the length of the post... trying to provide as much detail as possible.

Best Regards,

dg6464

edit: adding pictures as requested

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

Post pics of your equipment pad and let us see your situation.

 

[dg6464]

Welcome to TFP.

Post pics of your equipment pad and let us see your situation.

Apologies - I forgot to add them when I posted initially... they are added to the first post now.

Let me know if you have any specific questions about them, or the setup.

Thanks!

 

[dg6464]

Hello Everyone,

Just checking to see if anyone has any suggestions regarding this?

Thanks!

Best Regards,

dg6464

 

[mknauss]

You show a MasterTemp heater. That is not used for the spa?

 

[dg6464]

You show a MasterTemp heater. That is not used for the spa?

Correct, only the 5.5kW Gecko IN.XE Spa Pack is currently used to heat the spa.

So wondering the most efficient path to using the Mastertemp as a manual switchover for the spa when I need to heat quickly, or permanently switching to it for the winter months while the pool is closed.

 

[mknauss]

You need to create a bridge you can open from the Spa system to the heater and back you can open. Though that will create winterizing issues. Sorry to say, but this system was not designed for functionality.

 

[ajw22]

Your objective is to reduce your electrical cost of $250 - $300 per month.

You have three pumps and the electric heater consuming electricity. One SS pump and a 2-speed pump on the spa and a VS pump on the pool.

What are the daily runtimes for each of the pumps in the summer and the winter?

Before you spend time and money modifying your system I would gather data on the electrical usage of the four devices. There are various home energy monitors which can monitor electrical use of circuits you install sensors on.

On specifics of how you can modify your system, none of the pipes are labeled in your pictures. I cannot follow exactly what connects to what.

I am not sure changing your electric heater for a Mastertemp is wise. The Pentair MasterTemp manual says:

1) Valve Retrofit - Retrofit some valves (manual or automatic) to leverage the MasterTemp 250 Pool Heater when I want to, so that I can keep the Spa at a much lower temp, and swap to gas heat when we periodically want to use it.
The goal would be being able to get it up to temp in a very short period of time. I can optionally (in non-winter months), likely turn off the IN.XE Gecko 5.5kW heater altogether and just use the pumps to circulate overnight, turning to the the Gas heater to heat when I need.

What temperature do you want to maintain the spa in the winter?

2) #1 Plus a Dedicated Circ Pump - add a dedicated circulation pump to replace Pump 1... as I believe circulation is also costing some $$$, especially during the winter when freeze protection kicks on every 20-30 mins and kicks both pumps and the blower on full blast. So a simple circ pump that can hit 25GPM minimum of a MasterTemp 250 if required.

Why not use your Intelliflo pump for whatever body of water is connected to the MasterTemp heater?

3) #2 Plus Dedicated Small Gas Heater to replace Gecko IN.XE heater altogether - add a dedicated smaller MasterTemp 125 or other Gas Heater to the mix to fully replace the electric heater altogether, even for maintaining at the lower temp.

See above

4) #3 Plus Dedicated Small IC15 Chlorinator to no longer have to use a floating Chorine puck dispenser, which is very inconsistent and annoying to keep up with in the winter.

The IC15 is not good in a small body of water without Pentair automation to control it.

5) Just swap everything for the Spa over to Pentair Intellicenter, use another Pentair Variable Pump, MasterTemp 125 Heater, IC15 Chlorinator and sell/forget the Spa Pack and existing pumps.

In general people are not successful keeping the spa in a dual body system open in the winter in the North without eventual problems. Eventually they give up and close it in the winter after things get damaged.

If your system works and is reliable for you and only costs $250/month to have your winter spa then that is the price.

 

[dg6464]

You need to create a bridge you can open from the Spa system to the heater and back you can open. Though that will create winterizing issues. Sorry to say, but this system was not designed for functionality.

Thanks for the input.

 

[dg6464]

Your objective is to reduce your electrical cost of $250 - $300 per month.

You have three pumps and the electric heater consuming electricity. One SS pump and a 2-speed pump on the spa and a VS pump on the pool.

What are the daily runtimes for each of the pumps in the summer and the winter?

Before you spend time and money modifying your system I would gather data on the electrical usage of the four devices. There are various home energy monitors which can monitor electrical use of circuits you install sensors on.

On specifics of how you can modify your system, none of the pipes are labeled in your pictures. I cannot follow exactly what connects to what.

I am not sure changing your electric heater for a Mastertemp is wise. The Pentair MasterTemp manual says:

View attachment 585151



What temperature do you want to maintain the spa in the winter?



Why not use your Intelliflo pump for whatever body of water is connected to the MasterTemp heater?



See above



The IC15 is not good in a small body of water without Pentair automation to control it.



In general people are not successful keeping the spa in a dual body system open in the winter in the North without eventual problems. Eventually they give up and close it in the winter after things get damaged.

If your system works and is reliable for you and only costs $250/month to have your winter spa then that is the price.

Thank you for the input as well.

The desired temperature in both the summer and winter would at this point be anything above 68F to avoid the condensation issue (likely 76-80F).

I would likely keep the Gecko IN.XE Spa Pack Heater connected and set to 75F so that it would kick in in case of failure of the Gas Heater during the winter.

I am open to using the VS1 Pool Pump for the Spa as well... I am just not sure of the best way to approach that, since I have never used it in the winter having freeze protection and such.

I do like the approach of potentially being able to swap the Spa over to the VS1 + IC20 + Mastertemp... would I be able to bypass the existing Spa System Pumps?

The Spa is currently set to circulate for 4 hours at night (Pump 1 Low), and only heat during off-peak hours (7pm-7am), maintaining a 95C temperature... so that if we want to go in the hot tub that evening, we have to set it in the morning to 102F. The issue is this really prevents us from using the Spa as often as we would like, as it's not always pre-planned, and more of a spur of the moment thing to use it after the kids are put down.

I understand the cost statement being "it is what it is"... but in my opinion there has to be a more efficient way to do this with existing, or some small equipment investment, hence my ask here to the experts.

Thanks.

Best Regards,

dg6464