IC60 not lasting

[vegas-doug]

So my Pentair IC60 was flashing green to inspect the cell. I did and there was some calcium, not terrible but some. So I cleaned it with acid/water and put it back in. Initially it said everything was ok but checked this morning and it again says to inspect cell. The automation is saying to clean it.

My initial IC60 only lasted 2 summers (May thru October) before being replaced under warranty. I believe that one couldn't read salt level or flow anymore. I do take the unit out during winter months. This was the second summer for this unit and now I'm having issues again. This one reads proper salt level at 3900. Pool chemicals are all in check.

Any thoughts? I can't afford to only get 10 months usage out of a $1,300 salt cell that has less than 20% of it's life used up.

I prefer to stay with pentair since I have easytouch but may have to consider a different setup if this unit failed again.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Doug,

I've used up three IC40 cells so far. One was over 5 years old, one was over 7 years old, and one was almost 9 years old.

The fact that the Cell light is flashing and the cell is clean, is a classic failure mode of the cell.

On the surface it makes no sense that your IC60, in a 18K pool, should be dead in just two seasons.

Logic says it has to be something that you are doing, but I have no idea what.

How often are you acid washing the cell?

How are you controlling your pH? What do you add to reduce pH?

I wish I had an answer for you, but I've got nothing.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[vegas-doug]

Doug,

I've used up three IC40 cells so far. One was over 5 years old, one was over 7 years old, and one was almost 9 years old.

The fact that the Cell light is flashing and the cell is clean, is a classic failure mode of the cell.

On the surface it makes no sense that your IC60, in a 18K pool, should be dead in just two seasons.

Logic says it has to be something that you are doing, but I have no idea what.

How often are you acid washing the cell?

How are you controlling your pH? What do you add to reduce pH?

I wish I had an answer for you, but I've got nothing.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Hi Jim,

Spoke with Pentair and he said it was not common but sounded like a cell failure. They will not cover it under warranty.

The first cell died within 2 years and could not read salt level. This one is just over 2 years old as well. There was some calcium on the cell plates but nothing too bad so I cleaned it because the cell said to.

I acid wash the cell at the end of summer (so every 5 months) since there is never substantial buildup on the plates.

To keep ph stable I inject acid with a stenner pump, always keeping it in the 7.4 to 7.6 range. Alkalinity is kept in the 70 to 90 range. The mixture is a 50/50 mixture of muriatic acid (from leslies) and water that is injected very slowly over 30 minutes or so every morning with the pump running at 1400 rpm, which is not fast enough to produce chlorine but fast enough to move water. Then after stenner runs the speed increases to produce chlorine for 12 hours per day.

I'm not sure what to do. I don't believe the acid injection would ruin it since it is such a small diluted amount injected into flowing water, while the cell isn't producing chlorine. Also seems to have been 2 different issues with the salt cells. What do you think?

Thanks,
Doug

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Personally I'm not a fan of injecting acid right before the cell. Even the small amount you are injecting is creating very acidic water right before the plates and it is well known that acid of any kind will slowly degrade the plate's ruthenium coating. This is why I never recommend following the manufacturers cleaning guideline of using concentrated MA to clean the plates ... I much prefer water jets, mechanical scraping and, if any calcium is left, then use acetic acid (cleaning vinegar).

My suggestion would be this - get another Pentair cell BUT MOVE the acid injector to a point in the return line after the cell. I'd go even as far as to recommend putting the acid injector after the cell and adding a check valve to make sure no acidic water can back flow into the cell. Then see how long a new cell lasts.

Just my 2 cents ...

 

[Jimrahbe]

Also seems to have been 2 different issues with the salt cells. What do you think?

Doug,

For sure you had two very different problems. If the cell could not detect that you had "flow" then the salt test won't work at all. I assume you tried to change the flow switch before the cell was replaced? It is possible that the tech just changed the cell, just to fix the issue and move on.

Your original cell problem had nothing to do the plates or chlorine production that your current cell has.

I was told that if you increase the salt level in the pool, you can often get the cell to quit flashing and go back to making chlorine. I tried that on the cell from my house and it did work for about a month before going bad again. I normally run at 3500 and jacked it up to 4000. Worth a shot in any case.

Maybe you should not be buying any lottery tickets any time soon.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[vegas-doug]

Personally I'm not a fan of injecting acid right before the cell. Even the small amount you are injecting is creating very acidic water right before the plates and it is well known that acid of any kind will slowly degrade the plate's ruthenium coating. This is why I never recommend following the manufacturers cleaning guideline of using concentrated MA to clean the plates ... I much prefer water jets, mechanical scraping and, if any calcium is left, then use acetic acid (cleaning vinegar).

My suggestion would be this - get another Pentair cell BUT MOVE the acid injector to a point in the return line after the cell. I'd go even as far as to recommend putting the acid injector after the cell and adding a check valve to make sure no acidic water can back flow into the cell. Then see how long a new cell lasts.

Just my 2 cents ...

Thanks guys. I may swap locations of salt cell and injection port. I assume I would be ok with an IC40 if my pool is around 16k gallons? That would save me $300-$400 and make it more bearable if I had to replace it every few years.

If I do move away from Pentair, what would you recommend? I would like a clear housing and the ability to change just the plates/cell at a much cheaper cost than the entire unit like Pentair.

Based on the following comparison, thought the Breeze CMP Powerclean Salt Ultra 760 or CircuPool RJ-45 PLUS, Edge 40, or

Compare and Review Saltwater Chlorine Generator Prices and Features | DSP

www.discountsaltpool.com

 

[vegas-doug]

Doug,

For sure you had two very different problems. If the cell could not detect that you had "flow" then the salt test won't work at all. I assume you tried to change the flow switch before the cell was replaced? It is possible that the tech just changed the cell, just to fix the issue and move on.

Your original cell problem had nothing to do the plates or chlorine production that your current cell has.

I was told that if you increase the salt level in the pool, you can often get the cell to quit flashing and go back to making chlorine. I tried that on the cell from my house and it did work for about a month before going bad again. I normally run at 3500 and jacked it up to 4000. Worth a shot in any case.

Maybe you should not be buying any lottery tickets any time soon.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Tell me about it. Had expensive LG fridge compressor, z-wave light switch, and now this go out in the past month.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You can go with an IC40. You’d just be running it at higher output.

 

[Serious1]

From what I just went thru with my hayward cell flashing like Las Vegas and seeing that you have a DE filter, when was the last time you had a TSP cleaning done on the grids? My symptoms pointed to a bad cell but after the TSP & ahh-some cleaned off the oil on the grids my cell is reading normal (I'm waiting for the experts here to ponder that). My testing was normal as well and water clarity was great. The only other problem was that my pressure was reading higher than other summers.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Serious,

You can't argue when something works, but from a technical perspective, a dirty filter would cause the IC60 to have a red flow light and would not turn on the flashing "Cell" light. No flow would equal no chlorine, but the cell would have different failure indications.

I have no idea how low flow effects the Hayward cell.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Serious1]

Serious,

You can't argue when something works, but from a technical perspective, a dirty filter would cause the IC60 to have a red flow light and would not turn on the flashing "Cell" light. No flow would equal no chlorine, but the cell would have different failure indications.

I have no idea how low flow effects the Hayward cell.

Thanks,

Jim R.

I never had a low flow light on, just low salt and inspect cell and the flow from the returns was fine.

 

[vegas-doug]

From what I just went thru with my hayward cell flashing like Las Vegas and seeing that you have a DE filter, when was the last time you had a TSP cleaning done on the grids? My symptoms pointed to a bad cell but after the TSP & ahh-some cleaned off the oil on the grids my cell is reading normal (I'm waiting for the experts here to ponder that). My testing was normal as well and water clarity was great. The only other problem was that my pressure was reading higher than other summers.

Interesting. I've never had a TSP cleaning. I just hose them off and spray cartridge cleaner on them. Then rise that off. Is TSP safe for DE cartridge filters?

 

[vegas-doug]

Serious,

You can't argue when something works, but from a technical perspective, a dirty filter would cause the IC60 to have a red flow light and would not turn on the flashing "Cell" light. No flow would equal no chlorine, but the cell would have different failure indications.

I have no idea how low flow effects the Hayward cell.

Thanks,

Jim R.

This summer I have been getting some white flakes in my pool as well, which I tested with muriatic acid/water and it fizzed. Calcium level in pool is high (650), but not outrageous. Not sure if that has anything to do with this or not but it did plugged up my filter a month ago. I do wonder if the salt cell was producing those white flakes the past few months. I have no idea what caused them since chemical levels weren't out of whack. I did use more shock this year and had my salt cell turned up higher than previous years.

The only other thing that changed was the union nut cracked so I added one of those 2 piece union nuts to secure the cell and stop the slight leak that was there.

I ran the diagnostic on the cell last night and it is under 20% used. Also, no red lights stayed on and water temperature is correct. I wonder why it wouldn't have a red light on during the diagnostic if the cell was bad...

I may end up trying the IC40 since it is quite a bit cheaper and easier to stomach replacing if it only lasts 2 years again. I am going to move the cell before the acid injection as was recommended to ensure that isn't an issue.

 

[vegas-doug]

Anyone used TSP-PF to clean their DE filters?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Anyone used TSP-PF to clean their DE filters?

I've owned my QuadDE-100 for 10 years now and I have never done anything more to it than rinse off the old DE with a garden hose. That's it. No soaks, no acid cleaning, nada. It's always gone back to it's original clean pressure.

TSP works best when you can take the entire cartridge(s) and soak it for a few hours. The materials used to make cartridge filter cartridges and DE filter cartridges are very different. Typically speaking with the QuadDE cartridges, they are a lot easier to clean and do not hold onto dirt and grime because their function is to hold DE in place. Then, when you wash away the DE coating, all the grime goes along with it. In cartridge filters, the pleats are a lot more tightly spaced to give greater surface area AND the material is different as it is designed to capture dirt and debris. This causes the dirt and grime to embed deeper into the cartridge material which is why soaking works a lot better. But, in that case, many people own two sets of cartridges so that they can quickly get their filters operational and not leave the pool sitting all day while the media soaks in a tub.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I did use more shock this year and had my salt cell turned up higher than previous years.

Doug,

What do you mean you used more "Shock"???

Are you routinely adding shock to your pool on a weekly or semi-weekly bases? If so, why? Maybe I just don't understand what you said?

For the past 7 years I have been using the original cartridges that came with my filter. I have just been rinsing them off and reusing them, no soaking at all. This year I bought new cartridges, not sure why as the old ones still work?? Anyway, I thought I'd soak the old ones and reuse them next time.

It was much more effort than it was worth. I won't be soaking them anymore. I'll just start replacing them every 7 or 8 years and moving on. I'll keep the ones I soaked and use them in an emergency if I need to, but too much effort for too little gain.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[vegas-doug]

I've owned my QuadDE-100 for 10 years now and I have never done anything more to it than rinse off the old DE with a garden hose. That's it. No soaks, no acid cleaning, nada. It's always gone back to it's original clean pressure.

TSP works best when you can take the entire cartridge(s) and soak it for a few hours. The materials used to make cartridge filter cartridges and DE filter cartridges are very different. Typically speaking with the QuadDE cartridges, they are a lot easier to clean and do not hold onto dirt and grime because their function is to hold DE in place. Then, when you wash away the DE coating, all the grime goes along with it. In cartridge filters, the pleats are a lot more tightly spaced to give greater surface area AND the material is different as it is designed to capture dirt and debris. This causes the dirt and grime to embed deeper into the cartridge material which is why soaking works a lot better. But, in that case, many people own two sets of cartridges so that they can quickly get their filters operational and not leave the pool sitting all day while the media soaks in a tub.

I bought a second set of aftermarket filters for half the price so I can swap them out and soak. In any case, I may not go thru the hassle of soaking.

 

[vegas-doug]

Doug,

What do you mean you used more "Shock"???

Are you routinely adding shock to your pool on a weekly or semi-weekly bases? If so, why? Maybe I just don't understand what you said?

For the past 7 years I have been using the original cartridges that came with my filter. I have just been rinsing them off and reusing them, no soaking at all. This year I bought new cartridges, not sure why as the old ones still work?? Anyway, I thought I'd soak the old ones and reuse them next time.

It was much more effort than it was worth. I won't be soaking them anymore. I'll just start replacing them every 7 or 8 years and moving on. I'll keep the ones I soaked and use them in an emergency if I need to, but too much effort for too little gain.

Thanks,

Jim R.

I had a mustard algae bloom in early summer. Phosphates were around 1,000 and I didn't bother lowering them this spring but I learned my lesson. I used the HTH Super Shock Pool Shock several times.

Ingredients: Calcium hypochlorite 56.44%, other ingredients 43.56%

Phosphates are down to 450 now, and I will get even lower next spring.

I'm still not sure what is causing the white flakes on the bottom of my pool though.

 

[mknauss]

Do not use cal hypo. Adds calcium. Our fill water has plenty of it.

Phosphates. Never checked them. With a water softener I have not changed water in nearly 3 years. You are welcome to mess with them. But no real need if FC is properly managed.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I had a mustard algae bloom in early summer. Phosphates were around 1,000 and I didn't bother lowering them this spring but I learned my lesson. I used the HTH Super Shock Pool Shock several times.

Ingredients: Calcium hypochlorite 56.44%, other ingredients 43.56%

Phosphates are down to 450 now, and I will get even lower next spring.

I'm still not sure what is causing the white flakes on the bottom of my pool though.

Yeah, you reeeeeeeeaaaaally don't want to add cal-hypo shock to a Vegas pool. It's just a bad idea. All brands and concentrations of cal hypo shock are loaded with calcium and carbonates. It very rapidly and strongly raises the pH. Pool owners that regularly use cal-hypo often get cloudy water right after adding it and it can take several hours for the filter to clean it out. An SWG getting hit with a slug of high CH water is going to "spit snowflakes" like crazy.