I Won the [Case], By a Lot!

...It was about $66 per year. I included that in my lawsuit, but the judge did not award me that. In small claims the judge doesn't explain her decision, you just get the judgement. So I'll never know why I didn't get that amount back. I also added $500 for punitive damages. Those are usually impossible to get. I was claiming fraud, because the builder lied to get out of fixing the attic, but fraud is very hard to prove. I didn't, and didn't get the 5 bills. I did get back all my court cost, and like an extra $50, which also went unexplained, so maybe that was some of my energy costs? No way to know, now. So the judgement was for just over $2K.
In small claims you typically can only get reimbursed for damages that are real costs. So if you have a receipt or a quote you have proof of a real financial impact that you can claim for reimbursement. Punitive and pain and suffer that sort of stuff is the awarded in Superior court where you will spend more time proving those things. HOWEVER, There is one Small Claims case where the judge awarded pain and suffering to pet owners that witnessed their dog being mauled to death. (My lawyer friends keep up on these tidbits of the law). I think it would have been a stretch to site that case to cover the angst over your power bill. ;) I bet you would have gotten more if you submitted your power bills as evidence, showed the calculation you used (with citation) and showed what your yearly costs where. Maybe even show the power bill from "this month" and "this month last year". If its documented well it works well in small claims.

Yep, and when I mentioned the loopholes that's exactly what I was most nervous about the whole time leading up to the hearing. I thought for sure I was going to get tripped up because I was not the original owner. The judge did in fact first ask me why I wasn't suing the original insulation contractor. I was worried about that, too. And when she asked I thought I was done for. But I had thought of that ahead of time and was prepared with a long shot answer, the ol' Apple defense. I responded: "If my Apple iPhone stops working, I wouldn't try to go after the transistor manufacturer, I'd go back to Apple, the company that sells the phone." I guess that worked. The defendant didn't think of trying the subcontractor excuse. He should have. Instead, when asked if he should be responsible for the fix should it be shown that the insulation was missing from day one, he replied "Yes." That floored me. It confirmed two things: that he wasn't too bright, and that he knew all along that he should have fixed that insulation for me, which confirmed (to me) that he was just being a jerk about it.
Is not the GC's responsible for overseeing the work of the subs he hires? I seem to remember that somewhere in the CSLB stuff. For example I just had a new roof put on. The tear off crew wasn't paying attention and put a foot through my ceiling. . It was actually quite comical, since the roofer told me it was going to happen. Part of my vaulted ceiling has no attic space between the roof and ceiling, and he was sure the tear off crew wasn't going to be paying attention and would step through it at some point.. sure enough.. I was in the kitchen and there was a big crungh.. and then another... they punched through twice, then a face peered through the holes in the family room and said...."Hello? Sorry 'bout that" ...anyway it was the owner of the tear off company that made good on the repair.

Also I find most judges will listen to reasonable explanations. They are people too., So it helps to know the statute you are using to support your claim. You just have to present your case and the why's. Sounds like you had the preponderance of stuff!
 
Hmmm, business idea...

Handyman Consultant, Inc.
We don't do the work, we just make sure it gets done right!

My neighbor would LOVE that right now!! Because of the COVID craziness, you can’t find a contractor here in Tucson to do any kind of work ... they are booked out by months and few, if any, will return calls let alone give you a quote. She wanted to do a simple jack & jill bathroom remodel where they took out the built in bathtub and installed a shower. She had a really good tile guy that did the demo and is very OCD about his tile work. Just to demonstrate the point of the shoddy builder - all the shower walls here were constructed using regular drywall with some red guard painted on, no cement board. Code calls for a minimum of 6” of cement board from the floor up ... nope. Straight drywall. You can imagine the mold issues we all get. Anyway, tile guy does a great job with the demo and tile work but he doesn’t do plumbing or regular drywall work. So my neighbor gets a plumber to come to convert the tub drain to a shower drain and adds in the vent line as well as the redo on the plumbing (new mixing valve, etc). He does a half-donkey job on getting the drain level (it’s not) and the mixing valve wasn’t set right. Calls the guy that did the job but he tells her he’s not going to fix it and to just have the tile guy level it out in the floor work. So then she’s ticked off and gets on the phone with the plumbing company owner to ream him out about his guys shoddy work. Owner agrees to fix it the next day, no charge, and then, 2 days later, she gets billed for the fix. She was pulling her hair out to me by the mailbox recounting her tale of woe and we both agreed being a GC sucks 😂

So @Dirk ‘s new business venture would likely be very popular in my opinion...
 
In small claims you typically can only get reimbursed for damages that are real costs. So if you have a receipt or a quote you have proof of a real financial impact that you can claim for reimbursement. Punitive and pain and suffer that sort of stuff is the awarded in Superior court where you will spend more time proving those things. HOWEVER, There is one Small Claims case where the judge awarded pain and suffering to pet owners that witnessed their dog being mauled to death. (My lawyer friends keep up on these tidbits of the law). I think it would have been a stretch to site that case to cover the angst over your power bill. ;) I bet you would have gotten more if you submitted your power bills as evidence, showed the calculation you used (with citation) and showed what your yearly costs where. Maybe even show the power bill from "this month" and "this month last year". If its documented well it works well in small claims.


Is not the GC's responsible for overseeing the work of the subs he hires? I seem to remember that somewhere in the CSLB stuff. For example I just had a new roof put on. The tear off crew wasn't paying attention and put a foot through my ceiling. . It was actually quite comical, since the roofer told me it was going to happen. Part of my vaulted ceiling has no attic space between the roof and ceiling, and he was sure the tear off crew wasn't going to be paying attention and would step through it at some point.. sure enough.. I was in the kitchen and there was a big crungh.. and then another... they punched through twice, then a face peered through the holes in the family room and said...."Hello? Sorry 'bout that" ...anyway it was the owner of the tear off company that made good on the repair.

Also I find most judges will listen to reasonable explanations. They are people too., So it helps to know the statute you are using to support your claim. You just have to present your case and the why's. Sounds like you had the preponderance of stuff!
I wasn't going after pain and suffering. My punitive damages were based on how the contractor attempted to skirt his legal obligation. He never came and even looked at the problem. He ignored all attempts to communicate. When he finally did respond it was with documents that he very clearly misrepresented as proof. And other things.

My position was going to be that by the judge ruling he only had to pay for the fix, and not for any kind of punitive damages, he would get off with no incentive not to behave that way with his next victim. If he knows he only has to pay for a repair whether he ponies up right away or drags it out all the way into court, then why would he ever do what's right first? Chances are most people will give up before going to court, so he wins most of these confrontations by doing nothing.

I never got the time to express that during the hearing. Nor did I have time to go over the calculations I used to come to the number for lost HVAC costs. I had plenty of proof of that, all neatly presented. I just had too much to go over about the repair and so some of my case never made it in front of the judge. Plus, I couldn't really show HVAC costs from prior months, or "this month last year" because during the period of time in dispute I had installed PV solar panels, which complete trash any sort of trend that might have been seen on the PG&E bills. But you're right, the calc's I could submit might not have been enough.

I knew going in the energy claims and the punitive damages were long shots. I mostly submitted those originally to sway the defendant into settling before court, like maybe he wouldn't want to take the chance on losing more than just the cost of repair. I put it to him that way a couple times in my letters, as in: pay me $1900 now or take a chance and end up paying $2700 later. But he didn't fall for that. I suspect this guy has been to court too many times for that to work. He probably knew he was going to lose, or even 50-50, but because he also knew that he was only going to be on the hook for the repair, why not just wait to see if I'd cave, or the judge would go the other way. Which, or course, was exactly why I had asked for the damages. Court cost (which I won) were only $50. Not enough incentive for the defendant to not roll the dice. It's just the way the system works.

I put in some real effort to stay out of court, because while I was sure I could prove the insulation was missing since original construction, I was never sure I could prove the defendant was actually the responsible party. That was one of the lines of questioning the judge pursued on her own. I sweated that out. But as I described, the guy answered that he was the guy, when he probably could have just said "Nope, not me."

I was prepared to lose. But I was not prepared to regret not trying to win, so I had to see it through.
 
My neighbor would LOVE that right now!! Because of the COVID craziness, you can’t find a contractor here in Tucson to do any kind of work ... they are booked out by months and few, if any, will return calls let alone give you a quote. She wanted to do a simple jack & jill bathroom remodel where they took out the built in bathtub and installed a shower. She had a really good tile guy that did the demo and is very OCD about his tile work. Just to demonstrate the point of the shoddy builder - all the shower walls here were constructed using regular drywall with some red guard painted on, no cement board. Code calls for a minimum of 6” of cement board from the floor up ... nope. Straight drywall. You can imagine the mold issues we all get. Anyway, tile guy does a great job with the demo and tile work but he doesn’t do plumbing or regular drywall work. So my neighbor gets a plumber to come to convert the tub drain to a shower drain and adds in the vent line as well as the redo on the plumbing (new mixing valve, etc). He does a half-donkey job on getting the drain level (it’s not) and the mixing valve wasn’t set right. Calls the guy that did the job but he tells her he’s not going to fix it and to just have the tile guy level it out in the floor work. So then she’s ticked off and gets on the phone with the plumbing company owner to ream him out about his guys shoddy work. Owner agrees to fix it the next day, no charge, and then, 2 days later, she gets billed for the fix. She was pulling her hair out to me by the mailbox recounting her tale of woe and we both agreed being a GC sucks

:goodpost: Perfect example of no pride in workmanship.

It’s funny, I started my own handyman business last February, (everyone I know has been telling me to do it for years) then COVID hit. It sucks, but I’ll only do outside jobs, and inside stuff for people I know. When there are jobs that require people to have permits pulled, inspections, etc, I don’t get into those types. But what I do do, is explain what to do, what to look for, what questions to ask, and how to go about things. When they decide on a contractor, if at any time they have questions, to call me, and if something doesn’t sit right during the construction phase, I’ll gladly come take a look.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kimkats
My neighbor would LOVE that right now!! Because of the COVID craziness, you can’t find a contractor here in Tucson to do any kind of work ... they are booked out by months and few, if any, will return calls let alone give you a quote. She wanted to do a simple jack & jill bathroom remodel where they took out the built in bathtub and installed a shower. She had a really good tile guy that did the demo and is very OCD about his tile work. Just to demonstrate the point of the shoddy builder - all the shower walls here were constructed using regular drywall with some red guard painted on, no cement board. Code calls for a minimum of 6” of cement board from the floor up ... nope. Straight drywall. You can imagine the mold issues we all get. Anyway, tile guy does a great job with the demo and tile work but he doesn’t do plumbing or regular drywall work. So my neighbor gets a plumber to come to convert the tub drain to a shower drain and adds in the vent line as well as the redo on the plumbing (new mixing valve, etc). He does a half-donkey job on getting the drain level (it’s not) and the mixing valve wasn’t set right. Calls the guy that did the job but he tells her he’s not going to fix it and to just have the tile guy level it out in the floor work. So then she’s ticked off and gets on the phone with the plumbing company owner to ream him out about his guys shoddy work. Owner agrees to fix it the next day, no charge, and then, 2 days later, she gets billed for the fix. She was pulling her hair out to me by the mailbox recounting her tale of woe and we both agreed being a GC sucks 😂

So @Dirk ‘s new business venture would likely be very popular in my opinion...
In either my current profession, or as a contractor, if a client called to complain about an error, it would not occur to me not to go make it right. Or to charge someone for fixing my mistake. Those are just such foreign concepts. This has to be related to availability. If contractors are booked so far out, then they can charge whatever they want and supply whatever quality level they want. The good ones get booked first, but apparently there is so much work that even the bad ones are booked up! They're not worried about reputation or repeat business, because their waiting lists are too long. How did that happen?
 
Last edited:
:goodpost: Perfect example of no pride in workmanship.

It’s funny, I started my own handyman business last February, (everyone I know has been telling me to do it for years) then COVID hit. It sucks, but I’ll only do outside jobs, and inside stuff for people I know. When there are jobs that require people to have permits pulled, inspections, etc, I don’t get into those types. But what I do do, is explain what to do, what to look for, what questions to ask, and how to go about things. When they decide on a contractor, if at any time they have questions, to call me, and if something doesn’t sit right during the construction phase, I’ll gladly come take a look.
Nice. I used to do that in my repair business. It's just good business. Even 30 years ago I would often say: "All I need to do to be in the 95th percentile of my trade is to show up when I say I'm going to." It doesn't take much to be better than the competition, because the bar is so low. I was booked solid for years without ever having to advertise, because I had a modicum of skill and I showed up!

There are definitely high-quality, honorable contractors. But I think the crux of the problem is: the majority of contractors are x-laborers that got tired of working for someone else, so lit out on their own. No education. No business sense. No management skills. Not even a well-rounded skillset for their trade. Just "Hey, I got a chop saw, I'm a contractor!" The state licensing boards don't do much to vet out a contractor. If you can pass a simple test, you're in business. When I got my license, I was supposed to prove four years of journeyman experience. I got around that easily. I was qualified to perform the services I sold, and like Rob I didn't tackle more than I should have, but I held a GC license, which technically meant I could build just about anything, whether I knew how to or not. State doesn't care, they just want the dues...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Arizonarob
I knew going in the energy claims and the punitive damages were long shots.
Right.. What I am trying to say, is in Small Claims court, unless you have a receipt or an estimate of work to make you whole, you probably won't get damages. They don't do punitive damages in SC court. But I bet you could have gotten the energy costs or a percentage of it if you would have showed your substantial loss with a month to month calculation like you mentioned. That is a damage that translates directly to money you had to pay out of pocket to offset the lack of insulation. We all live and learn in these things.. I appreciate you telling us your tale so we (I) can learn as well from you experience. Thx

BTW, the I was impressed enough with the guy that did the drywall repair that the roofers sent.. I hired him to do some other drywall work. Yes there are still people that have pride in their work.. I recognized he was one of them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dirk
Even though I had been advised otherwise, I felt compelled to present a lot of evidence, to cover all the bases. That kind'a backfired. I should have figured out a way to present everything in five minutes max. That's what I'd do differently if there's a next time. And agree, they like to see simple, quantifiable damages...
 
Even though I had been advised otherwise, I felt compelled to present a lot of evidence, to cover all the bases. That kind'a backfired. I should have figured out a way to present everything in five minutes max. That's what I'd do differently if there's a next time. And agree, they like to see simple, quantifiable damages...
Great story Dirk. I think your revised goal above of 5 minutes or less would have been essentially unattainable though. Just sayin'.
 
Yah, for me especially (shocker) it's much easier said than done. I had several tacks to present and explain, any one of which should have proven my case, but I had no idea which would be the more convincing in court. So I wanted to, needed to, present them all. And squeezing any one of those tacks into five minutes would have been tough. It was frustrating to have to wait five or six months for a court case, requiring hours and hours to prepare for, and then only getting a few minutes in front of a judge (who was not actually a judge, by the way).

On the other hand, at least I live in a time and a place where the opportunity to bring a wrong-doing in front of someone that has the authority to mandate and enforce a solution exists. It's easy to take that for granted...
 
  • Like
Reactions: bmoreswim

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
I’ve completely lost faith in the home building industry; it should just be taken as a given that any home you purchase nowadays from a large builder will be riddled with defects and cut-corners. County inspectors are useless for the most part and building codes will be violated as much as possible to save the builder money. As others have stated, independent and thorough inspection by a paid and unbiased 3rd party inspector that you hire is all you can do. If you have to spend $1000 on them to comb through the house for an entire day (or two!), then so be it.

We purchased our home (3rd owner) in 2012 that was built during ‘05/‘06 housing madness for a steep discount. The shoddy workmanship was covered up nicely and I feel sorry for all of the original owners in our community because they were sold very high priced “custom homes” (that word “custom” is such a joke) and then the market completely crashed. Most of the original owners (that stayed) are still upside down in their mortgages and will never recover the $100,000’s of dollars in lost equity. Every time I do some small DIY repair I can see how the builder chose to do the lowest quality job...it’s just sad. My brother recently purchased a home in St Louis that was built during the early 90’s. While some of the features in the house are a bit dated, I consider his house to be much higher quality. Even nearly 30 years later, much of the original equipment and structure of the home is working just fine.

Some day I will go back to being a renter and be very happy for it ...
Pima County inspectors are pretty loose in their inspections, unfortunately, and are almost on the take from the builders here in my not so humble opinion. Not directly, but you can tell they are afraid to be too aggressive with the builders. The houses here are built for the climate, they'd literally collapse in St. Louis the first really good snow. I am really quite amazed how lightly built the houses are here in Tucson, I've been reinforcing stuff as it literally breaks in my house. It's got to be the climate. Or cultural. Or both.

Plus I never bought a property anywhere else, had the title company clear the title and then a year later when trying to build a pool-- I couldn't because I didn't own the land the back fence was on. The home builder still did and they were three years delinquent on taxes for it. I'm now going on year three of that and I still don't have it completely straightened out with the county. I should have sued the title insurance company. Their documents clearly didn't match what was on file with the county! (And fraud is a felony!) I still couldn't believe it. Pro tip: If you need to move into a cookie cutter house, whatever you do, DO NOT use the builders title company for close! The builder at least quickly fixed the issues one called out on them, causing two others nasty issues.. but that was ultimately the county's fault after that. Of course the lawyer I had to show up to the close not only didn't verify the paperwork, he also didn't show up. Tucson, man. I didn't pay him. He didn't push it.

I guess if you take it as an insult, you take it as in insult, but as beautiful of a place as Tucson actually is (it really is), I am amazed most of the times they manage to keep the lights on here.

The good news for your neighbors is that it appears there is a run up on the market again, and if I didn't have to stay here for the job, I might take the 80K and run, honestly. Yes, my property has gone up that much and that's without the pool in the estimate yet..(my farm in Iowa dropped $100K in value in the same time so I got lucky for once.) I'm hoping more California immigrants run in run up the prices some more so I can retire somewhere cheaper two years earlier.. we will see...

Fred
 
I wish I had a screen shot of the judge holding the stack of my papers she had to print out. It was pretty funny in retrospect.

Unknown.jpeg
 
I had several tacks to present and explain, any one of which should have proven my case, but I had no idea which would be the more convincing in court. So I wanted to, needed to, present them all. And squeezing any one of those tacks into five minutes would have been tough. It was frustrating to have to wait five or six months for a court case, requiring hours and hours to prepare for, and then only getting a few minutes in front of a judge (who was not actually a judge, by the way).
Just be careful your different presentations don't conflict with each other.. I have seen that happen with real attorneys, and the case gets dismissed because they inadvertently substantiated the default ruling for the other party...Yeah here we are Monday Morning Quarterbacking your victory! :unsure: :scratch::ROFLMAO:
 
Congrats! As a complex litigator, I often feel small claims is underused. It's so quick and easy, and cheap to file. You can also file for up to $15k in Georgia.

If the other side ever has a court reporter present, ask for a continuance and retail counsel. We have used small claims cases to get early depositions before filing class actions. They don't know which lies to tell.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dirk
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.