How quickly can pH/negative LSI eat through a heat exchanger?

If we average the pKa for CO2 and CYA, we get about 6.615.

100 + 20.636 = 2B

B = 60.318%

Start pH = 6.433, which is 60.318% Acid and 39.682% Base.

Total Alkalinity Base goes from 40% to 0%. pH 6.4 to 4.5 = 1.9 pH points.

Total Acidity Acid goes from 60% to 20%. pH 6.4 to 7.2 = 0.80 pH points.


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I believe the horse is dead, cooked in a smoker, and turned into pulled-equine sandwiches now ... the answer is -

Water chemistry killed the heat exchanger, it likely did so very quickly because the heater was used, and now the customer needs to buy a new one. Only you, as the business owner, can determine if you want to warranty the situation for the sake of customer-relations. If you do choose to make it right with them, you should stipulate that any future equipment installations will require proper pool water chemistry balance and the removal of any other equipment that could damage the replacement. You should also review with them that solid chlorine tabs are highly acidic and they can not be used in a way that potentially damages the pool equipment. There are right ways to use trichlor tabs and wrong ways to use them. Most pool owners have no clue about this.
 
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If we average the pKa for CO2 and CYA, we get about 6.615.

100 + 20.636 = 2B

B = 60.318%

Start pH = 6.433, which is 60.318% Acid and 39.682% Base.

Total Alkalinity Base goes from 40% to 0%. pH 6.4 to 4.5 = 1.9 pH points.

Total Acidity Acid goes from 60% to 20%. pH 6.4 to 7.2 = 0.80 pH points.


View attachment 627946

View attachment 627945

View attachment 627949


I just tested CYA. Had to dilute it, but it’s in the range of 450-500. You think the ph was below 5 then? Seems that would very quickly kill a heat exchanger. I’ll also read with the pH probe I’m reading later.

And yes, who knows how much base they added previously.

The sampling I did yesterday was from a covered pool ( a cheap bubble cover).
 
I would probably not warranty anything.

If anything, I might give a slight discount from full retail.

Used equipment is like a used car where you can sell it "As-Is" or you can provide a warranty if you want.

The sale should specify if it is being sold "As-Is" or, if a Warranty is provided, the Terms and Conditions need to be spelled out.

In my opinion, it looks like a water chemistry issue and probably a tab feeder issue.

On Sale and Installation, the Customer needs to understand their responsibilities and the Installer needs to look for issues like a tab feeder and either remove the feeder of use a check valve and require that the pump be run 24/7 to prevent migration of Tab Juice (aka Piranha Solution) into the heater.

If the customer has a tab feeder, the Heater should be sold "As-Is" with no Warranty.
 
If I was running a Pool Service Company, pool water chemistry would be tested before any equipment is installed and any anomalies discussed with the customer.
 
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but it’s in the range of 450-500.
That explains the high Base Demand result.
You think the pH was below 5 then?
Probably well below 4.5 before the customer added baking soda or soda ash to try to correct the problem.

The problem now is that you are not reading the conditions when the heat exchanger failed.

If you could have tested before the customer added base, that would have been super helpful.

We sold a refurbished Mastertemp 400 to a customer a few weeks ago.
Did you check the chemistry at the time?

The chemistry did not get that bad in a few weeks.

Most likely it was really bad when the heater was installed.

The chemistry should have been addressed at the time before the heater was installed.

Always have the techs test all chemistry every time and also bring back a water sample for reference if needed later.
 

In this prior thread, it is basically the exact same thing.

You could have tested the Negative TA and figured out the pH.

Most likely the TA was well below 0 and the pH was well below 4.5.

The pool should have been drained and refilled prior to installing the heater based on the CYA reading.

Note: Draining involves risk and a pool should never be drained unless you are 100% sure that it can be done safely without floating the pool.
 
1 lbs of trichlor in a 1,000 gallon pool will:

Raise fc by 110 ppm.

Raise CYA by 67 ppm.

Raise salt by 90 ppm.

Lower TA by 77 ppm.

You need 1.14 lb baking soda per lb of trichlor to offset the TA loss.

If the CYA was increased by 200, then the TA would have been lowered by about 230 ppm.

If the TA started at 80 and it got lowered by 230, it would be -150 unless baking soda was added on a regular basis.

If the TA gets to 0, then the pH is 4.5.

If the TA goes below 0, then the pH goes below 4.5.

At a TA of -150, the pH would be about 2.52.

pH = -log_10(0.00002X).

This modifies the formula a little bit to get the pH to 4.5 at a TA of 0.0.

pH = -log_10(0.00002X + 0.00003161)

TA...............pH
0..............4.5
-2............4.4
-3............4.2
-4............4.1
-5............4.0
-6............3.9
-7............3.85
-8............3.8
-9............3.74
-10..........3.7
-20..........3.4
-30..........3.2
-40..........3.1
-50..........3.0
-60..........2.9
-70..........2.85
-80..........2.80
-90..........2.74
-100........2.7
-200........2.4
-300........2.22
-400........2.1
-500........2.0
-5,000.....1.0.
-50,000....0.0
-500,000..-1.0


View attachment 613840

View attachment 613851


View attachment 613903

pH vs. Negative TA.
 
If the CYA was increased by 400, then the TA would have been lowered by about 460 ppm.

If the TA started at 80 and it got lowered by 460, it would be -380 unless baking soda was added on a regular basis.

The pH could have been as low as about 2.1.

TA...............pH
0..............4.5
-2............4.4
-3............4.2
-4............4.1
-5............4.0
-6............3.9
-7............3.85
-8............3.8
-9............3.74
-10..........3.7
-20..........3.4
-30..........3.2
-40..........3.1
-50..........3.0
-60..........2.9
-70..........2.85
-80..........2.80
-90..........2.74
-100........2.7
-200........2.4
-300........2.22
-400........2.1
-500........2.0
-5,000.....1.0.
-50,000....0.0
-500,000..-1.0
 

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I would probably not warranty anything.

If anything, I might give a slight discount from full retail.

Used equipment is like a used car where you can sell it "As-Is" or you can provide a warranty if you want.

The sale should specify if it is being sold "As-Is" or, if a Warranty is provided, the Terms and Conditions need to be spelled out.

In my opinion, it looks like a water chemistry issue and probably a tab feeder issue.

On Sale and Installation, the Customer needs to understand their responsibilities and the Installer needs to look for issues like a tab feeder and either remove the feeder of use a check valve and require that the pump be run 24/7 to prevent migration of Tab Juice (aka Piranha Solution) into the heater.

If the customer has a tab feeder, the Heater should be sold "As-Is" with no Warranty.
This would be great if possible. In California, as a licensed contractor, I have to provide a 1-year workmanship warranty and warranty that there will be no defects for that same time. I could spell out a 90-day warranty on the parts and, if sued, would lose.

Therefore, selling used equipment that doesn't have a manufacturer's warranty is crazy if one is a contractor. You can get away with filter-pumps as the wet-ends virtually never fail and I would always install a new motor that has a warranty. Never had a problem with even one used pump sale but have had new ones fail.

That's also why we don't purchase items online, even though an item may be less expensive than at a supplier. We then become the "retail" purchaser and any warranty is usually not transferable and, rather than deal with a supplier who will honor most warranties across the counter, it would take dealing with and shipping parts and waiting for an online dealer to honor the warranty and ship it back, all the while you have a customer with a pool that is down in the middle of Summer.

Yes, in 34 years I did take a chance and sell one used heater, but I did the original install, knew the original customer's lack of use, the water chemistry of the original pool, no tab feeder (took that off at the install), why he wanted new after only three years (he has more money than he needs), replaced a temp sensor, installed it on a pool for a very nice family with a lot of kids and it worked for about another eight years before they moved.
 
no defects for that same time.
No defects in Materials or Workmanship.

It does not mean that the product will not fail due to abuse.

Abuse is not covered under warranty.

However, a Customer can sue and it will still cost you more than the job to defend the lawsuit even if you win the case.

Some people want to be in the business of working with used or refurbished equipment and some don't.

I would avoid used equipment as it is not worth the hassle and risk.
 
Start pH = 6.588, which is 66.185% Cyanuric Acid and 33.815% Cyanurate.
This basically checks out.

Total CYA = 475, 315 ppm CYA (66.3% Acid), 160 ppm Cyanurate (33.7% Base).

Total Alkalinity = 120.

Cyanurate Alkalinity = 62 ppm. (475 X 0.13).

Carbonate alkalinity = 58 ppm

160 gram Cyanurate = 1.24 moles Cyanurate = 0.62 moles calcium carbonate = 62 gram calcium carbonate.

Total Moles Cyanurate + Cyanuric Acid = 3.68.

Moles of Cyanuric Acid = 2.44.
__________________________________________________

70.76 gram bicarbonate = 1.16 moles bicarbonate = 0.58 moles calcium carbonate = 58 gram calcium carbonate.

Start pH = 6.6, which is 36% CO2 and 64% bicarbonate (Moles).

Total moles of Carbon dioxide + bicarbonate = 1.8125.

Moles of carbon dioxide = 0.6525 =

CO2 = 28.71ppm.

 
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If I was running a Pool Service Company, pool water chemistry would be tested before any equipment is installed and any anomalies discussed with the customer.
All new clients get the lip service from me, water chemistry needs to be tested before I can commit to servicing them. Not marrying someone else's short falls and then getting the blame two weeks in.
 
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If the CYA was increased by 400, then the TA would have been lowered by about 460 ppm.

If the TA started at 80 and it got lowered by 460, it would be -380 unless baking soda was added on a regular basis.

The pH could have been as low as about 2.1.

TA...............pH
0..............4.5
-2............4.4
-3............4.2
-4............4.1
-5............4.0
-6............3.9
-7............3.85
-8............3.8
-9............3.74
-10..........3.7
-20..........3.4
-30..........3.2
-40..........3.1
-50..........3.0
-60..........2.9
-70..........2.85
-80..........2.80
-90..........2.74
-100........2.7
-200........2.4
-300........2.22
-400........2.1
-500........2.0
-5,000.....1.0.
-50,000....0.0
-500,000..-1.0

He is telling me he was measuring pH regularly with strips and adjusting as needed, so if I believe him, I'm not sure the pH and TA would've actually got down that far with him adjusting along the way, but of course I'll never know.

In response to some of the other comments, there have been some wise words spoken here I plan to take to heart. If you learn from your mistakes, then I'm getting a very expensive PhD during my first year of ownership, LOL. You referenced my other post above about another heater issue, and they are indirectly related. That was a couple that was using their 3" floater in their 1500 gallon in ground spa and our maintenance tech (who has since left and I'm not sure was really properly trained on pool chemistry ) wasn't the wiser about it in his visits and this couple's defence was they were only using the products that we left with them. They had a point. I'm not sure we had ever educated them or told them to use anything differently. Anyway, I placated them thinking they would stick around as long term customers and it would be worth it, but they dropped us after getting the new heater. Word to the wise, only give credit, not cash.

So to cut my losses, I brought their MT250 back and moved some of the sensors and other items to this MT400 that had been in our warehouse from before I bought the company. My service tech assured me it had seen limited use and was suitable for selling, so I sold it "as is" to this customer, but still believing it was fully functional. After purchasing it, they told me the thermal regulator wasn't working and he sent me a picture of it. It was indeed corroded and not working well. So I started to have some doubts about the history of the heater and how much it had or had not been used. When the customer then came to me a month after buying it with the leaking exchanger, I thought maybe I had unintentionally sold him a compromised unit.

Of course, now having done this testing and the great insight of @JamesW and others, I fully believe it was the chemistry that ruined it and the heat exchanger was likely fine. Next time I'll personally do an inspection on the end tubes of the exchanger or better yet, have the customer inspect it.

This customer ended up buying a new MT125 from me, and we agreed on a split of the cost of what I sold him the MT400 for (which was a steal admittedly), so it isn't a total loss on what I sold him the used MT400 for, but it still stings.

Anyway, I might push back on the customer a little bit, or at least make him feel guilty about the deal I gave him, LOL. I'm not sure I'll get much business out of him, but maybe he'll share our name with someone else he encounters. As a new business owner, I've focused on customer satisfaction more than anything and have eaten more $$ than I should have. I just consider it a marketing expense at this stage.

But yeah, some painful and expensive lessons learned during this first year of ownership and definitely some process steps and protocols I plan on implementing moving forward.
 
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He is telling me he was measuring pH regularly with strips and adjusting as needed, so if I believe him, I'm not sure the pH and TA would've actually got down that far with him adjusting along the way, but of course I'll never know.
The chemistry is about as bad as it can get.

Their claims of adjusting as needed are ridiculous nonsense.

In my opinion, the TA was probably below 0 and the pH was probably between 2 and 3.

No way to tell now.

In any case, hopefully, lessons learned.
 
For used equipment, have written warranties that spell out everything.

Also, specify that the liability for equipment is limited to a refund and that you do not have to repair if you choose not to.

Most service people don't deal with used equipment, but if you do, make sure that it is worth it to you including the anticipated failures.

If you sell 100 units at $1,000.00 and have to refund 5%, then that is the cost of doing business.

All prices need to include all costs plus sufficient profits to make it worth your time.
 
He is telling me he was measuring pH regularly with strips and adjusting as needed,
You will learn about the disdain we have for test strips.

Just about every one who comes here using test strips is surprised at their actual water chemistry after we shame them into buying a real test kit.

I think you will find any customer, or prospective customer, who is using test strips is a red flag and a reason to do a complete set of Taylor water tests. And make sure your techs know how to properly do each test with correct handling of the reagent bottles.

For a while I had some health problems and so had a pool guy come once a week. He did water testing at customers with a Taylor K-2006C kit. But occasionally he would get different results than I did. I would get out my kit and we would both do the same tests by the pool. He learned about the importance of drop sizes and not squirting out reagent.
 

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