High Salinity

[pjt]

I am guessing that my sense and dispense is just not working that great, which is a reason many people dont have it.

Correct.

I am going to be converting to a salt water generator.

Excellent choice.

So the CH is calcium hardness?

Yes.

Do they make smaller inline softeners? Something I can manually backwash or do I need a full blown softener?

Look into RV water softeners.

 

[jaygrovr]

Ok a day later and here are the numbers
FC 17.5
CC 0
PH 7.4
CL 5
CH didnt test
TA 40
CYA 60
Salt 4200

What are my next steps?
J

 

[proavia]

The pH test is invalid with FC above 10.
The pH test usually reads falsely high when FC is above 10.

On the TA test, are you adding drops until the last drop doesn't change the color any further and then subtractting the last drop? If so, add enough baking soda to raise the TA from 40 to 60 ppm. Use PoolMath to determine the dosage.

Test the CH and report it here.

On the salt test, are you adding drops until the first indication of the brick red color staying or adding drops for a darker color?

 

[jaygrovr]

The pH test is invalid with FC above 10.
The pH test usually reads falsely high when FC is above 10.

Ok understood.

On the TA test, are you adding drops until the last drop doesn't change the color any further and then subtractting the last drop? If so, add enough baking soda to raise the TA from 40 to 60 ppm. Use PoolMath to determine the dosage.

Test the CH and report it here.

Ok I will test the CH

On the salt test, are you adding drops until the first indication of the brick red color staying or adding drops for a darker color?

Yes adding until it changes to brick red, seems pretty obvious when it does. I am letting it constantly stir, and I add one drop at a time waiting between them.

 

[proavia]

Update your signature to indicate that you now have the TF-Pro Salt test kit.

When the salt test fist changes and stays the brick red color is when the test is done.

Once we know the CH reading, we can better advise. With a salt reading of 4200 and if the CH is also high, it might be time to consider a drain/refill this fall - especially if you intend to add a SWG.

Adding a whole house water softener would be best. Then you'll have soft water to the inside of the house as well. Much better for the dishwasher, washing machine and showering - you will use less soap and skin won't be as dry either. If you house doesn't have a soft water loop, chances are, if the autofill is presently plumbed to the rear hose bib, adding a water softener will also supply soft water to the autofill. You will need to insure that the outside irrigation system plumbing is using hard water to water plants/grass.

 

[pjt]

FC 17.5

Stop adding chlorine for a couple days and allow the FC to drift down <10, then resume dosing.

CL 5

You don't have to run the chlorine test using the color matching block. It's occasionally useful to know "is there chlorine in the water?". The FAS-DPD test with the powder is much more accurate and precise.

TA 40

Keep adding drops until there's no additional color change. Final color will be Barbie pink. For me, it takes another 2-3 drops after the color begins to change.

What's the TA and CH of your fill water?

 

[jaygrovr]

CH was 925, in the pool. I will test the fill water next.

Fill water TA is 170, and CH is 325 (fill water)

 

[pjt]

Fill water TA is 170

You will never need to add baking soda. Every time you add water, you're increasing TA (and CH).

CH is 325 (fill water)

You should install a water softener for your fill line, otherwise you'll be draining and refilling often.

 

[jaygrovr]

You will never need to add baking soda. Every time you add water, you're increasing TA (and CH).


You should install a water softener for your fill line, otherwise you'll be draining and refilling often.

Ok interesting, with my basic home depot pool test kit the TA would always be so low, and I would need to add baking soda, but maybe that was a false reading. I will see about adding a camper type softener to the line, although its all mostly underground, so that will be fun.

Can I install the salt water generator cell? It looks like my salt levels should be ok for its operation? or do I need to wait for more balancing and tuning of my water.

One other question, i do have some trouble seeing the colors of these test kits. The TA kit from home depot was pretty easy since the water changed pretty drastically, but again I am wondering how accurate that is compared to the new test kit I have, where I have a harder time seeing the color change. Are there any digital devices that may be able to do some of this? I dont care about cost so much.

J

 

[pjt]

with my basic home depot pool test kit the TA would always be so low

Your TF-Pro is significantly better. The basic HD kit is almost useless.

I would need to add baking soda

A non-trichlor pool should never need baking soda under normal circumstances, and you have high TA fill water as well.

Can I install the salt water generator cell? It looks like my salt levels should be ok for its operation? or do I need to wait for more balancing and tuning of my water.

What cell did you buy? Required salt levels vary between makes and models. If your salt is in the range compatible with your cell, you can start operation. Maintain a slightly negative CSI (zero to -0.3) to mitigate scaling on your SWCG, which is challenging given your high CH.

i do have some trouble seeing the colors of these test kits. The TA kit from home depot was pretty easy since the water changed pretty drastically, but again I am wondering how accurate that is compared to the new test kit I have, where I have a harder time seeing the color change.

You have the best kit a homeowner can have. Confirm you're using the stirring device.

For the pH test, a consistent background is key. To get good backlighting, hold the block in front of your computer monitor/tablet/phone with a blank white screen displayed. Also, try holding the block sideways or upside down. Sometimes that helps distinguish colors better. I also use two old hotel keycards to mask off areas and narrow down my decision.

The color change for the TA, FC, and salt tests are easy to see. The CH test is a bit more subtle (I have a helper staring at the test to assist while I add drops).

 

[jaygrovr]

Your TF-Pro is significantly better. The basic HD kit is almost useless.


A non-trichlor pool should never need baking soda under normal circumstances, and you have high TA will water as well.


What cell did you buy? Required salt levels vary between makes and models. If your salt is in the range compatible with your cell, you can start operation. Maintain a slightly negative CSI (zero to -0.3) to mitigate scaling on your SWCG, which is challenging given your high CH.

What is CSI and how can I maintain that properly? If I start filling with softened water that will eventually lower my CH, but also lower my salt content?

I bought a hayward s3, the newer one clear, its rated for 25k gallons. I bought it before realizing I should have a SWG that is 3 times the volume, so hopefully it will work for a little while.

You have the best kit a homeowner can have. Confirm you're using the stirring device.

For the pH test, a consistent background is key. To get good backlighting, hold the block in front of your computer monitor/tablet/phone with a blank white screen displayed. Also, try holding the block sideways or upside down. Sometimes that helps distinguish colors better. I also use two old hotel keycards to mask off areas and narrow down my decision.

The color change for the TA, FC, and salt tests are easy to see. The CH test is a bit more subtle (I have a helper staring at the test to assist while I add drops).

 

[jaygrovr]

Update your signature to indicate that you now have the TF-Pro Salt test kit.

When the salt test fist changes and stays the brick red color is when the test is done.

Once we know the CH reading, we can better advise. With a salt reading of 4200 and if the CH is also high, it might be time to consider a drain/refill this fall - especially if you intend to add a SWG.

Adding a whole house water softener would be best. Then you'll have soft water to the inside of the house as well. Much better for the dishwasher, washing machine and showering - you will use less soap and skin won't be as dry either. If you house doesn't have a soft water loop, chances are, if the autofill is presently plumbed to the rear hose bib, adding a water softener will also supply soft water to the autofill. You will need to insure that the outside irrigation system plumbing is using hard water to water plants/grass.

We have a entire home softener already. Its plumbed to mostly everywhere except main kitchen cold faucet (hard water is better for cooking), all hose bibs, and irrigation. Adding one to the entire home seems like a waste. I am ok adding a smaller unit just for the pool. I see a few on amazon that are pretty cheap, and I suppose I can backwash them once a year. I assume that if I drain, I should refill with soft water. The camper style/size softeners can connect to a hose, so for doing a bulk of the fill, I can just use that. I think the salt generator that I am getting was ok operating between 1200 and 8000 ppm salt, but at the end of the manual it does say to dilute if over 3600ppm. My last test 2 days ago was 4200ppm, so I need to dump about 25% of my water, right?

J

 

[proavia]

May be bestt to plumb your whole house softener to your autofill.

If using a portable RV sized softener for your autofill, you will need to regenerate it more than once a year.

Chances are your whole house softener is 48K or 64K grains and needs to regenerate every 1500-2500 gallons - based on its settings and your water hardness. A portable softener has less capacity and will need to be regenerated accordingly. In Vegas, your main water source is the Colorado River - with some of the hardest water in the western US. @mknauss able to let you know how his softener works for his pool as he is using Colorado River water as well.

You don't use softened water if doing a drain/refill - you use it for water lost to evaporation thru your autofill.
Your entire 15,000 gallon pool will evaporate 1 to 1.5 times its volume yearly - possibly more - but the CH remains and gets added to by the autofill water, so the CH continues to increase unless you used soft water for the autofill.

 

[mknauss]

I have the double size RV softener. I regenerate at 700 gallons give or take. In the summer (May to September) I do it every 14 days. Rest of year is less. My 200 sf area (6000 gallon) pool evaporates about 50 gallons per day during summer.

It is not perfect. After 4 years my CH has gone from 250 to 600 ppm. So I will be draining this fall and starting over.

 

[jaygrovr]

May be bestt to plumb your whole house softener to your autofill.

If using a portable RV sized softener for your autofill, you will need to regenerate it more than once a year.

Chances are your whole house softener is 48K or 64K grains and needs to regenerate every 1500-2500 gallons - based on its settings and your water hardness. A portable softener has less capacity and will need to be regenerated accordingly. In Vegas, your main water source is the Colorado River - with some of the hardest water in the western US. @mknauss able to let you know how his softener works for his pool as he is using Colorado River water as well.

You don't use softened water if doing a drain/refill - you use it for water lost to evaporation thru your autofill.
Your entire 15,000 gallon pool will evaporate 1 to 1.5 times its volume yearly - possibly more - but the CH remains and gets added to by the autofill water, so the CH continues to increase unless you used soft water for the autofill.

Yea I actually removed the whole house system since i expend about 30k gallons in just watering the grass and plants (monthly), so there is no way I can do that with a softener. I actually removed the entire home system and specifically put it where its supposed to go. I have a 64k grain unit and it regenerates about once every week. I dont need that to go any higher. Cant i use softened water for the refill? why not?

 

[proavia]

Your pool needs some hardness - maybe 250-300 ppm to start. Your hard water is probably in the 250-ish range.
If the pool CH is too low, it will leach calcium from the plaster - and you don't really want to do that.

Your softener has a finite capacity - for a 64K unit that is between 1700 and maybe 2500 gallons before it needs to be regenerated based on how the softener is set up and its programming. My 64k unit regenerates at 1750-ish gallons as I reset the programming to get a better balance of salt used per regen.

Let's talk about your present softener setup - we really only care about what you have now, not how it was before you replumbed it. How difficult would it be to run a soft water line from the garage to the autofill area? Think about plumbing a new line thru the garage wall, then underground to the autofill pipes or thru the attic crawl space. Having soft water plumbed to the autofill will help keep the CH in check, thereby reducing the need for pH adjustments as the CH climbs and virtually eliminating drain/refill due to high CH. So you are saving on water for the drain/refill and acid to lower pH as the CH level goes up.

Saves money on acid and water - increased salt use to regen the softener is way cheaper.

Of course, you can continue to use hard water for the autofill - and work to keep pH down as the CH rises, along with the need to do a complete drain/refill every few years as the hardness gets too high.

My CH has risen about 50-75 ppm over 4 YEARS with using soft water for the autofill. This is likely do to the autofill being on when the softener is regenerating at 2AM.

Between having a SWG and a relatively constant CH (thanks to using soft water for the autofill), my pH sits around 7.8 to 8.0 and I can leave for two week vacations (maybe longer) without worryiing about the chemicals in the pool. I do have great neighbors who check on the pool and empty the skimmer when I'm gone.

 

[jaygrovr]

Your pool needs some hardness - maybe 250-300 ppm to start. Your hard water is probably in the 250-ish range.
If the pool CH is too low, it will leach calcium from the plaster - and you don't really want to do that.

Your softener has a finite capacity - for a 64K unit that is between 1700 and maybe 2500 gallons before it needs to be regenerated based on how the softener is set up and its programming. My 64k unit regenerates at 1750-ish gallons as I reset the programming to get a better balance of salt used per regen.

Let's talk about your present softener setup - we really only care about what you have now, not how it was before you replumbed it. How difficult would it be to run a soft water line from the garage to the autofill area? Think about plumbing a new line thru the garage wall, then underground to the autofill pipes or thru the attic crawl space. Having soft water plumbed to the autofill will help keep the CH in check, thereby reducing the need for pH adjustments as the CH climbs and virtually eliminating drain/refill due to high CH. So you are saving on water for the drain/refill and acid to lower pH as the CH level goes up.

Saves money on acid and water - increased salt use to regen the softener is way cheaper.

Of course, you can continue to use hard water for the autofill - and work to keep pH down as the CH rises, along with the need to do a complete drain/refill every few years as the hardness gets too high.

My CH has risen about 50-75 ppm over 4 YEARS with using soft water for the autofill. This is likely do to the autofill being on when the softener is regenerating at 2AM.

Between having a SWG and a relatively constant CH (thanks to using soft water for the autofill), my pH sits around 7.8 to 8.0 and I can leave for two week vacations (maybe longer) without worryiing about the chemicals in the pool. I do have great neighbors who check on the pool and empty the skimmer when I'm gone.

I dont think running a new line from the softener to the pool is really practical. Its gotta be about 200 feet away under lots of pavers, concrete and there is no logical path. I would much rather just install a normal softener at my pool gear than run the new line. Yes I understand how softeners work, but I dont want it regenerating every night. Regenerating uses water and I am already over the limit and I cant see spending more water to flush out the softener so much. I know this wouldnt matter if I installed a second softener at my pump gear, but getting an RV style one, I can just run it for X amount of gallons and put a meter on it to count the water passing through it.

It sounds like soft water is the way to go, I just cant tap into my normal house system, so I either need to install a smaller RV unit, or just get a regular 30k grain system and manually run the clean cycle on it when it needs.

Im most worried about destroying the SWG with the water being too hard. But if this is just monitoring the CH and then doing a dump at one point. I guess its really using the same amount of water in the end.

More to think about I guess.

J

 

[mknauss]

To install a regular softener at your pad you need a place for the regeneration brine to go.

Using soft water will reduce your pool drain from every 18-24 months to 5 years or more with an efficient system.

 

[jaygrovr]

How much water is generated at each brine cycle?

 

[mknauss]

How much water is generated at each brine cycle?

A 30k grain unit I looked at would generate about 20 gallons each regen. It will be concentrated brine for the most part.