High Demand Pool with Spa and stream

[Spa Owner]

You really can't damage a pool pump in that manner. As long as water is moving through the pump, it will not overheat or get damaged.

Sorry at deadhead there is no water (calculated) flowing in the pump full stop. The impellor is spinning and water is not moving. Running like this for even a short period will damage the pump in some way.

The data the OP stated showed pump at deadhead. So couldn't be correct or was out in some way.

 

[Spa Owner]

If anybody has experience with streams and how to avoid any algea problems in them I would also like to hear about them. Is it a must to keep the flow going all the time during daylight or is it good enough to just run it parts of the day?

Sorry I missed the rocks...Whilst it looks nice the stream has stones in it. Besides the stream is plants. Plants drop organic matter. This matter drops in the stream, gets caught in the stones and increases the chlorine demand.

My usual preference is removal of the stones if possible, however this may have an undesired visual impact. An alternative may be to annually remove the stones and clean them and put them back again. I think this may go a long way to helping with your issues.

 

[runboy]

I am currently cleaning the stream out to make sure there is no algea in my system. The stream consists of a cement bed filled with small round river rocks.
BUT there is also a significant amount of sand underneath the river rocks.
Is this by design or is it just trapped sand?
i can fill a wheelbarrow and then some with the sand alone. I do live in the desert, so it’s not surprising, but I don’t want to remove the sand if it’s in there by design

 

[Dirk]

I am currently cleaning the stream out to make sure there is no algea in my system. The stream consists of a cement bed filled with small round river rocks.
BUT there is also a significant amount of sand underneath the river rocks.
Is this by design or is it just trapped sand?
i can fill a wheelbarrow and then some with the sand alone. I do live in the desert, so it’s not surprising, but I don’t want to remove the sand if it’s in there by design

I've no experience with a stream connecting two pools (who does?), but what you're describing sounds a lot like the filter bed in the bottom of my aquarium (sand and small stones with larger stones on top), specifically designed to be home to all kinds of organisms, bacteria mostly, if I remember right. Great for consuming fish poop, not so great for a pool.

If that could be happening in your stream (and surely something could be growing in there, or would start growing there first), I'd take all that out. Leave the large stones to make it visually appealing if you must, and maybe some large river rock, both of which could be removed in 20 minutes or so for thorough cleaning, but I'd pull out all the sand, for sure, and anything less than the size of a baseball. Can you even see the smaller stuff when the stream is running? Would losing those two component of the stream impact your enjoyment of it significantly?

Then I'd pull out all the smaller overhanging plants, and consider decorating around and over the stream with artificial plants. Nothing organic to drop into the water, no water use. If you got rid of the smaller stuff, and added some nice artificials, I'm thinking that could look nicer than what you have now, and be way less of a sanitizing problem.

Just an idea...

 

[runboy]

I've no experience with a stream connecting two pools (who does?), but what you're describing sounds a lot the filter bed in the bottom of my aquarium (sand and small stones with larger stones on top), specifically designed to be home to all kinds of organisms, bacteria mostly, if I remember right. Great for consuming fish poop, not so great for a pool.

If that could be happening in your stream (and surely something could be growing in there, or would start growing there first), I'd take all that out. Leave the large stones to make it visually appealing if you must, and maybe some large river rock, both of which could be removed in 20 minutes or so for thorough cleaning, but I'd pull out all the sand, for sure, and anything less than the size of a baseball. Can you even see the smaller stuff when the stream is running? Would losing those two component of the stream impact your enjoyment of it significantly?

Then I'd pull out all the smaller overhanging plants, and consider decorating around and over the stream with artificial plants. Nothing organic to drop into the water, no water use. If you got rid of the smaller stuff, and added some nice artificials, I'm thinking that could look nicer than what you have now, and be way less of a sanitizing problem.

Just an idea...

yes, after cleaning it out, I don’t think it was supposed to be there it was more mud than sand. Think I might have discovered why I was consuming a gallon of chlorine every day.
should I throw my river rocks in a bleach solution before I put them back? If so, how concentrated and for how long?
i will probably pressure wash the river bed and brush it good.

 

[Dirk]

From the Clorox website, 1/2 cup to 1 gallon ratio for 5 minutes sounds about right. Be sure the bleach is one that can go in a pool, no additives, etc:

Q. My bleach is leaving lined white residue when left on surfaces. What can I do to solve it?

A. It sounds like you may be pouring undiluted bleach directly onto a surface, which we actually recommend against. Bleach should always be diluted with water first before use—it should never be applied full strength to anything! The residue you see is salt. That’s because the sodium hypochlorite active in Concentrated Clorox® Regular Bleach2 naturally breaks down in salt and water, a big part of what makes the product so environmentally friendly. Following label instructions is important to make sure the product is used safely and performs as promised.

Here are some instructions on how to properly dilute bleach for common disinfecting uses:

1. Disinfecting Bleach Solution (use for disinfecting hard, non-porous surfaces like sinks, showers, bathtubs, countertops, glazed tile, vinyl, floors)—Wash, wipe, or rinse surface to be disinfected with water. Add ½ cup Concentrated Clorox® Regular Bleach to 1 gallon water; apply bleach solution to surface; let stand 5 minutes. Rinse thoroughly and air dry.
2. Sanitizing Bleach Solution (use for sanitizing hard, non-porous items like dishes, plastic ware, glassware, stainless steel flatware, and pet’s food and water dishes, to name a few)—Wash items thoroughly with detergent and rinse. Add 2 teaspoons Concentrated Clorox® Regular Bleach to 1 gallon cool water; soak items for 2 minutes, then drain and air dry (note that with this application there is no rinsing!).

These are two of our more commonly used applications. Rinsing thoroughly after using the disinfecting bleach solution should prevent any residue from being left behind. The sanitizing solution for dishes and the like, on the other hand, is dilute enough that residue is not an issue—air drying is actually an important part of the process.


Read more at Making sure you dilute bleach | Clorox®

 

[runboy]

If I do use a pressure washer on the cement bed of the stream, do I somehow have to seal it afterwards?
I remember once using a power sprayer on a stone/cement driveway surface and afterwards it was a pain to keep clear of algea. This is back when I lived in a wet climate. Power spraying it made it really porous and hence made it easy for the algea to grow there.
I am just using an electrical 2000 psi pressure washer.

 

[Spa Owner]

yes, after cleaning it out, I don’t think it was supposed to be there it was more mud than sand. Think I might have discovered why I was consuming a gallon of chlorine every day.
should I throw my river rocks in a bleach solution before I put them back? If so, how concentrated and for how long?
i will probably pressure wash the river bed and brush it good.

Yes this is a normal situation for this type of set up. The mud is the chlorine broken organics broken down to the lowest denominator the chemical can get too and it will keep exhausting itself on it.

Are the stones slimy to the touch but cant see any obvious reason? Problem with stones is a lot of them are not chemically compatible with pool water.

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If I do use a pressure washer on the cement bed of the stream, do I somehow have to seal it afterwards?
I remember once using a power sprayer on a stone/cement driveway surface and afterwards it was a pain to keep clear of algea. This is back when I lived in a wet climate. Power spraying it made it really porous and hence made it easy for the algea to grow there.
I am just using an electrical 2000 psi pressure washer.

I think a direct wash of the stream bed with a similar Clorox solution as proposed above with a general power washer wash of the cement should be okay. I wouldn't use high pressure though my pressure washer has a lower pressure lance and this should be sufficient. We want to wash the surface not put holes in it.

 

[runboy]

Yes this is a normal situation for this type of set up. The mud is the chlorine broken organics broken down to the lowest denominator the chemical can get too and it will keep exhausting itself on it.

Are the stones slimy to the touch but cant see any obvious reason? Problem with stones is a lot of them are not chemically compatible with pool

A few were and I left those out of the river bed. I have given all the other ones a bath in the chlorine solution suggested above.
While it looks pretty, it’s got to be the dumbest setup. Debris gets trapped without possibility of removal unless I remove all the rocks.
At some point I will probably look into some other kind of water feature to move the water from the Spa to the pool. Any suggestions?

 

[mknauss]

Landscape/pool designers and builders obviously have no clue on water chemistry maintenance and what it takes long term to maintain what they build. Your realization that this is not sustainable is spot on.

Could you run a line from the spa to the pool? Take the stream out of the system completely. It could stay visually, even put some plants up close to it to make it look active, but eliminate the water chemistry issue completely.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Could you run a line from the spa to the pool? Take the stream out of the system completely. It could stay visually, even put some plants up close to it to make it look active, but eliminate the water chemistry issue completely.

That sounds like an excellent idea to me.. You could even do it with a valve so you could use the stream when you wanted to show off...

Jim R.

 

[Spa Owner]

A few were and I left those out of the river bed. I have given all the other ones a bath in the chlorine solution suggested above.
While it looks pretty, it’s got to be the dumbest setup. Debris gets trapped without possibility of removal unless I remove all the rocks.
At some point I will probably look into some other kind of water feature to move the water from the Spa to the pool. Any suggestions?

I did wonder...and here you will need a pool builder with a few clues.

See if the stones can be set in a resin or clear epoxy. This gives the impression of the stones visually whilst removing most of the issues with them.

Another option may be to purchase an acrylic sheet and heat form it to cover the stones. obviously this will need some considerable consideration to enable complete water isolation as any water getting into the covered stones will create algae/mould on the clear acrylic.

An alternative that may work is to reconfigure the stream so it is a smaller width split over two separate routes with a stone type garden in the centre this could create similar look with a significant reduction in issues.​

 

[Dirk]

I would think a stream of rocks connecting the two bodies will eventually get old, as it continues to be problematic. Maybe I'm projecting, as it is everything I can do just to brush my pool once in a while. Emptying a stream of rocks a few times a year to scrub everything down, and fight with chemistry in between? I wouldn't last a month.

Is there a water fall at both ends, or just at the bottom?

Some ideas, mix'n'match, or a la carte:

Plumb the spa directly to the pool with a PVC pipe. (This is the foundation of the following ideas.)

Optionally, maintain the water fall at the bottom.

Turn the stream into landscaping (hide the pipe connecting the spa/pool in the landscaping). Use dirt and some boulders. Plant "stream-like" foliage.
Turn the stream into landscaping. Use less dirt, but enough to plant plants, and use more rocks, various sizes (what you already have).
Turn the stream into landscaping. Use all rocks, and plant plants outside of the stream. A dry creek.

Use all blue rocks and/or glass, of different hues, and simulate a stream. (See pic below.)

Is the stream level enough to hold water? Turn it into an independent water feature, as a separate body of water, with it's own pump and filter (small AG rig). You could create/recreate waterfall at top of stream. No plants.

Or independent water feature with water plants. It'd be a pond at that point. You'd still have to maintain this separate body of water, but not too carefully, and it wouldn't affect the pool.

If not level enough, install a serious of large bowls, or concrete partitions, and let the water spill from each into the one below, top to bottom. Maybe add some shoots if it's too many bowls to fill the stream with just bowls. Small pump would send water from the bottom bowl back to top. Bottom bowl would need to be large enough to hold all the spilled over water when not running (but not necessarily all the water of every bowl, as most of that would stay in each bowl). Plumb in a water filling system, to offset evaporation (I have drip tubing running from hose bib to fountain). Surround bowls with rocks and plants.

Convert it to a water slide, but spa would still be connected independently to pool. Water for slide would pump from the pool. Nothing in the slide, so it'd run clean with pool water, or be dry when not in use.

That's off the top of my head... Others will no doubt chime in with other ideas...

 

[runboy]

I am curious about how you would do the suggested pipe leading from the spa to the pool.
If it’s just gravity fed, I would think it would have to be massive to support all the overflow from the spa.
I have cleaning pop ups in the spa as well as the pool and when the spa ones are active, there is a significant flow in the stream.

 

[mknauss]

I guess it would be helpful to know what rate of water goes to the spa during that time. I would think a 4" line would carry quite a bit of water, but that should be reviewed.

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Does the spa have a drain at all?

 

[Dirk]

Hey, I'm the idea guy. I don't sweat the details!!

I see drains in the spa. Could those be replumbed at the pad to be the suction source for the spa popups, so that the spa was cleaned independent of the pool? That would solve the cleaning/overflow issue.

Then in spillover mode, I think, yes, that would have to be gravity fed. So you pump water from the pool no faster than the PVC connector can handle. That pipe wouldn't necessarily need to be 2" though. It could be much larger. All you're really after is enough water to make the lower waterfall look nice, right? For spa use, you'd want the spa water to stay in the spa, yes? To maximize the heating? You'd run spillover mode only for the visual, and to mix the two bodies for sanitation. That wouldn't have to be a large flow of water. Maybe something like that?

Then the river could be a fake, dry creek. Or if it was a water feature, its water would be pumped, sanitized and filtered independently. I googled "fake stream" images and wandered around for a while, saw some great ideas. You could do an amazing looking water feature, if you were so inspired.

Or take all the rocks out of the stream and run it as a long, clean concrete spillway. Hang the larger rocks (and maybe add more) over the edge, so they're sitting on the ground, out of the water, but still creating a nice visual.

 

[runboy]

I can isolate the spa and pool and run them independently, but not at the same time. During normal ops I want to just run the together.
Still think the easiest solution will be a an open water solution. Maybe a series of steps like a long waterfall.

 

[Spa Owner]

I would avoid the pipe...gravity feed pipes are tricky and all that needs to happen is the level change at either end and there will be issues. It will be easier to keep the stream, just remove the rock and change to something easier to maintain.

If must go the pipe route need to calculate the fall we can get from spa to pool and keep the end of the pipe at pool end above water level, if the end drops below water level the flow characteristic in the plumbing changes and can lead to overflow. Think this way...if I got a bucket and put a hole in it and fill it with water the amount of emptying slows as the water level lowers in the bucket. This is better known as head. as the head of water drops the flow drops. The same occurs in the pipe. If the hole in the bucket is put under water say 6 inches then to get the same flow we need to lift the bucket height 6 inches to overcome the back pressure. This is what makes gravity pipe difficult.

 

[runboy]

Yes. I’m not a big fan of the pipe either.
Maybe make the stream more level by making the top waterfall bigger and then change the stream to something like this:
http://www.michaelglassman.com/files/images/04-027 BBB.jpg

 

[Dirk]

I think I understand what Spa Owner is describing, that the exit of the pipe needs to be above the pool. And I was envisioning that. The exit would be the lower water fall, above the pool's water line. I really like the separate water feature idea.

But as Spa Owner and others suggest, the cleanest, easiest solution is to just remove everything from the stream, and run the spa and pool as plumbed. The stream would pretty much be no more or less than the tile under a typical in-pool spa spillway. Instead of a vertical drop of a foot or two, it's a horizontal drop the length of the stream. It'll collect some organic material, no doubt, but that'd be manageable. No worse than the nearby tree most of us have in our own yards.

I'd concentrate effort on the areas to either side of the stream. Hide that curb-like edge under rocks, some could overhang the stream, just as some are doing now. Then landscape those two areas and the stream would run down the middle of it all, much as it would do in nature. Place the overhanging rocks in a way that wouldn't impede brushing to any great degree, then maintenance would just be running a pool brush down the stream once in a while...